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SpaceBar
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PostSubject: Cams & Rockers   Fri May 11, 2007 9:31 pm

I'm looking to know a little more about the Cams and rockers.

What are the differences between them in reliability and performance?

I'm not looking to get too big into modding just get a little quicker (high 13s) as this is my daily driver.

I've read that a mild cam is greater on the performance side but doesn't hurt realiability either.

What do you guys think about it? Has anyone here cammed their engine?
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PostSubject: Re: Cams & Rockers   Sat May 12, 2007 12:10 am

for high 13's I'd say rockers.

if you do a cam, I say do it right. Alot of lift and probably new heads. But thats just me.
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PostSubject: Re: Cams & Rockers   Sat May 12, 2007 6:57 am

Dont forget the install on the cam, even done right, with all the precautions, $h! can go wrong. I had a big cam installed. I paid a very competent guy to help me do it. 2k later the engine had big problems. Was it the heads, the cam install, or a pre-existing problem, who really knows. Engine = toast.

I would go rockers if I were you.
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PostSubject: Re: Cams & Rockers   Sat May 12, 2007 10:48 am

It's a hard choice. To begin with, a cam is cheaper to buy than a set of rockers, plus the 1.9s require changing out springs/rods, which adds to cost. I think you can keep stock valve train intact using a mild cam.

On the other hand, a cam install is more work than rockers, requires more tech know-how & mechanical skill. Easier to do if you drop the engine. Not everyone knows how or feels comfortable doing that kind of thing.

Power increase is different. Rockers gain up high (4k rpm+), while a cam gives a solid power increase throughout the entire band. Some feel having more power mid-band is desirable, some think a boost up top helps offset our low-rpm torque curve.

Because rockers only work higher up, they don't affect low rpm operation, idle, or general fuel economy. Cams do alter how your engine runs at all rpms. Tuning is necessary with some cams to get everything right.

See: http://rivperformance.editboard.com/Supercharged-3800-Tech-c2/Series-II-Engine-Transmission-f4/30-SC-Pulley-t749.htm?

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PostSubject: Re: Cams & Rockers   Sun May 13, 2007 10:38 am

AA wrote:
It's a hard choice. To begin with, a cam is cheaper to buy than a set of rockers, plus the 1.9s require changing out springs/rods, which adds to cost. I think you can keep stock valve train intact using a mild cam.


See: http://rivperformance.editboard.com/Supercharged-3800-Tech-c2/Series-II-Engine-Transmission-f4/30-SC-Pulley-t749.htm?

the mildest cam intense had that I saw, made more lift than the 1.9 rockers. And it was VERY close to the stock limit of the stock head. You would still need to change out the springs to take advantage of that cam. just like we did to take advantage of our 1.9's.
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PostSubject: Re: Cams & Rockers   Fri Jun 01, 2007 8:39 am

^^^ Good point. further supporting the idea that cams are more complex/expensive than rockers in the end. If you want the most performance possible, spending a little more time & money on a cam is the way to go. If you're okay seeing slightly smaller gains with less hassle, rockers are a good idea.

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'98 SC Riviera 268k miles 298 HP/370 TQ 0-60: 5.79s ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 4087 lb 20.1 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley AL104 plugs 180 t-stat FWI w/K&N 1.9:1 rockers OR pushrods LS6 valve springs SLP headers ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts MaxAir shocks Addco sway bars UMI bushings GM STB Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus SS lines Brembo slotted discs DHP tuned Aeroforce Hidden Hitch


'05 GTO 49k miles 0-60: 4.8s 16.9 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun
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PostSubject: Re: Cams & Rockers   Sat Jun 02, 2007 12:18 pm

I would go with rockers. I went with a VS cam (the mildest one ZZP sells) and kept the stock valvetrain. Like you, I didn't an all out race-car, only a nice improvement.

Although I have not yet modified the exhaust and the PCM, I feel the increase in power was not a good bang-for-the buck. I have to say I did not get the "cam install kit" from ZZP, which would have saved me at least 150$.
I'm not saying the cam didn't yield impressive gains, just that I don't feel it was worth all the hassle.
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PostSubject: Re: Cams & Rockers   Sat Jun 02, 2007 2:49 pm

Another good point, Jason. The mildest cam (VS) may give similar gains to the most extreme rocker ratio (1.9:1). So, if you decide to go through the trouble of a cam, it makes sense to choose a more extreme grind.

On the other hand, you'll probably see more value in even a mild cam after you open the exhaust a little more.

_________________
'98 SC Riviera 268k miles 298 HP/370 TQ 0-60: 5.79s ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 4087 lb 20.1 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley AL104 plugs 180 t-stat FWI w/K&N 1.9:1 rockers OR pushrods LS6 valve springs SLP headers ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts MaxAir shocks Addco sway bars UMI bushings GM STB Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus SS lines Brembo slotted discs DHP tuned Aeroforce Hidden Hitch


'05 GTO 49k miles 0-60: 4.8s 16.9 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun
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PostSubject: Re: Cams & Rockers   Sat Jun 02, 2007 3:56 pm

yup.
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PostSubject: Re: Cams & Rockers   Sat Jun 02, 2007 11:17 pm

AA wrote:


On the other hand, you'll probably see more value in even a mild cam after you open the exhaust a little more.

and upgrade the PCM
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PostSubject: WHICH CAM?   Mon May 12, 2008 7:28 pm

im looking for the best cam to use with stock heads, and make decent power.but also have the beastly sound. im looking for used but if i need to use my saving bonds to buy new i will, i dont want to but i will.

i know dave has the XP cam, and its very nice. what cam would you recommend


Last edited by palermocorey90 on Mon May 12, 2008 8:30 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Cams & Rockers   Mon May 12, 2008 8:10 pm

I guess it depends on your goals. I'm quite satisfied with the VS, as are many people. The xp will kill it on the top end, but for my purely street use, it is fine.

the last criteria I would use to select a cam would be sound. If you want it to lope, change your exhaust and lower the idle speed a bit.
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PostSubject: Re: Cams & Rockers   Mon May 12, 2008 8:20 pm

i want street for most but some strip time maybe, and thats is a HUGE MAYBE. would roller rockers be a better idea for now or what. i dont want to spend the money but to get some extra power i need too. my goal is 300 HP at the crank, well for now
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PostSubject: Re: Cams & Rockers   Mon May 12, 2008 10:59 pm

IF 300hp at the crank is your goal , than i'd suggest rockers ,as with rockers , ported blower , tb , and headers/exhaust i'd imagine you could be at around 300-320 or so hp at the crank. And you could always add an intercooler later on for more power ,or sell the rockers to me when you do decide you want a cam.
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PostSubject: Re: Cams & Rockers   Mon May 12, 2008 11:33 pm

TonySmooth89 wrote:
IF 300hp at the crank is your goal , than i'd suggest rockers ,as with rockers , ported blower , tb , and headers/exhaust i'd imagine you could be at around 300-320 or so hp at the crank. And you could always add an intercooler later on for more power ,or sell the rockers to me when you do decide you want a cam.

agreed, 300hp crank isnt that hard.
AA pretty much did it with only rockers, headers and 3.4"
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PostSubject: Re: Cams & Rockers   Tue May 13, 2008 6:30 am

Agreed, 300 is an easy goal.

However you have a nice opportunity to put in the cam while the engine is out of the car. No jockeying inside the engine bay or using two jacks because of the lame mount we have on the passenger side. Straight in easy install.

As for which, I've heard XP and S1X, both sound good...run good and are very streetable. And like Jason mentioned, if you want more rumpy cam sound all you do is turn down the idle.
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PostSubject: Re: Cams & Rockers   Tue May 13, 2008 7:54 am

I would get a Cam. If your going to mod the car more safe yourself and get it now. ^He told me to but I got rockers anyway. To be honest I was disappointed. Get it so there isn't a coulda shoulda woulda.
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PostSubject: Re: Cams & Rockers   Tue May 13, 2008 6:08 pm

ok i made up my mind after a little talk last night. im going with a cam. now the be decision Intense S1X or ZZP XP hot cam, i have herd both sides. get S1x get XP. i think i will just make a poll, you can vote there which ever has more vote a week from friday (05/16) is the one i will get. i know there both good but im have trouble choosing
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PostSubject: Re: Cams & Rockers   Tue May 13, 2008 10:56 pm

Shoot, I wouldn't rely on a poll to make that kind of decision. Figure out how you will use your car, and match it up with cam characteristics that are best suited to what you want to do. I can't/won't vote as I know nothing about either cam.
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PostSubject: Re: Cams & Rockers   Wed May 14, 2008 6:16 am

The two cams are very similar. When I researched them, it appeard that the S1X would be a little spunkier off the line and the XP would have a little more at the top. When the overall was looked at...there was such a minor difference that having either was a win.
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PostSubject: Re: Cams & Rockers   Wed May 14, 2008 3:50 pm

I agree with Bill, either cam is good. And you are making the right decision, do it while the engine is out of the car.
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PostSubject: Re: Cams & Rockers   Wed May 14, 2008 4:03 pm

and i will quote from oldsman. "you dont want it to be a coulda woulda shoulda "
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PostSubject: Re: Cams & Rockers   Thu May 15, 2008 12:01 am

BillBoost37 wrote:
The two cams are very similar. When I researched them, it appeard that the S1X would be a little spunkier off the line and the XP would have a little more at the top. When the overall was looked at...there was such a minor difference that having either was a win.

that would be an easy choice for me then...top end = XP FTW.
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PostSubject: Re: Cams & Rockers   Thu May 15, 2008 8:35 am

BillBoost37 wrote:
The two cams are very similar. When I researched them, it appeard that the S1X would be a little spunkier off the line and the XP would have a little more at the top. When the overall was looked at...there was such a minor difference that having either was a win.

Dreww..it really came down to the smallest of differences. And if we look at the times vs mods and power vs mods, it is tough to draw any conclusion that one is better than the other. I would rank them close to equal from what I have seen.

Corey.. Oldsman's motor will be out soon.
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PostSubject: Re: Cams & Rockers   Thu May 15, 2008 6:38 pm

i did it, about 30 secs ago i ordered my intense S1x cam
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