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 Transmission slow to shift - any ideas???

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playa
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PostSubject: Transmission slow to shift - any ideas???   Wed Feb 22, 2012 7:22 pm

I am in tune with my car like no other. I noticed just briefly that the up shift was slow (or drawn out would be the right description). I also noticed that in 4th, when I let my foot off the gas, rpms drop instantly. Normally, its a gradual decline. Part of me thinks I'm still in 3rd (RPMs at 2200 at 60 mph - is that 3rd or 4th?) The Riv just passed 145,000 miles and I've never had a tranny issue - always maintained the fluid and have changed both the filter and fluid within the last 10,000. At this point, it's a slight annoyance and 95% of the time, it acts normal.

I'm just thinking there may be a bigger issue here that if I deal with now will save me alot of headache and money later on. What say you guys. Is there a module that's pron to fail on these trannys or some minimal maintenance above and beyond fluid and filter changes that I should be aware of.
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PostSubject: Re: Transmission slow to shift - any ideas???   Wed Feb 22, 2012 7:38 pm

I'm interested in this as well, my car seems to do this too.

sometimes when I step on it, I get no acceleration, and other times, it hauls ass. I have no idea why it's so damn inconsistant.
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LARRY70GS
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PostSubject: Re: Transmission slow to shift - any ideas???   Wed Feb 22, 2012 8:08 pm

When I'm doing 60 MPH in OD and the converter is locked up, I'm at 1600 RPM. Sounds like you are in 3rd gear.

_________________
98 Riviera SC3800  All stock except gutted air box.
1970 Buick GS455 Stage1, TSP built 470BBB, 602HP/589TQ
Best MPH, 116.06 MPH, Best ET, 11.54
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playa
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PostSubject: Re: Transmission slow to shift - any ideas???   Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:02 pm

LARRY70GS wrote:
When I'm doing 60 MPH in OD and the converter is locked up, I'm at 1600 RPM. Sounds like you are in 3rd gear.

Bingo. It didn't dawn on me till I started the post and started writing that maybe the high speed issue is the fact that I was still in 3rd. On my way home, I tested that theory and sure enough - 4th/OD is no bueno. That sucks.

So, am I to assume there's a problem internally or could it be a computer issue? No codes have been thrown visually that is.
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albertj
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PostSubject: Re: Transmission slow to shift - any ideas???   Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:04 pm

playa wrote:
I am in tune with my car like no other. I noticed just briefly that the up shift was slow (or drawn out would be the right description). I also noticed that in 4th, when I let my foot off the gas, rpms drop instantly. Normally, its a gradual decline. Part of me thinks I'm still in 3rd (RPMs at 2200 at 60 mph - is that 3rd or 4th?) The Riv just passed 145,000 miles and I've never had a tranny issue - always maintained the fluid and have changed both the filter and fluid within the last 10,000. At this point, it's a slight annoyance and 95% of the time, it acts normal.

I'm just thinking there may be a bigger issue here that if I deal with now will save me alot of headache and money later on. What say you guys. Is there a module that's pron to fail on these trannys or some minimal maintenance above and beyond fluid and filter changes that I should be aware of.

Is your CEL/SES on?
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playa
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PostSubject: Re: Transmission slow to shift - any ideas???   Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:11 pm

albertj wrote:
Is your CEL/SES on?

Nope. What quick research I've done points to a stripped 4th gear clutch hub. The part I've read is $60 but as anybody attempted a switch out on this type of transmission
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PostSubject: Re: Transmission slow to shift - any ideas???   Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:31 pm

if there is any indication your car was wrecked or rolled at some point in the past look for a problem in the transmission linkage/wiring. If not, could maybe be a PCM problem but more likely something is telling your transmission it's facing too high a load.

What I would do:

- drop the pan and look for fragments
- see if you can find someone with a Tech II and take a log of the sensors on a test drive. You'll be able to read transmission pressures and stuff and on the driving log you'll be able to identify what's not doing what it is supposed to do. You can take **the same** log using Alex Peper's Car=Code software (http://www.obd-2.com). Once you have a log of the driving you can play it back. With Car-Code you can even set the "dash" gauges to read out various values, stop the log playback and change the gauges to read other values. It should not take *too* long to figure out what's going on.

I suspect you'll figure out at least part if not all of the mystery when you drop the pan and look for shrapnel.
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AA
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PostSubject: Re: Transmission slow to shift - any ideas???   Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:38 am

Do you get 4th gear at any time, or is it gone entirely?

_________________
'98 SC Riviera • 268k miles • 298 HP/370 TQ • 0-60: 5.79s • ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 • 4087 lb • 20.1 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley • AL104 plugs • 180Ί t-stat • FWI w/K&N • 1.9:1 rockers • OR pushrods • LS6 valve springs • SLP headers • ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts • MaxAir shocks • Addco sway bars • UMI bushings • GM STB • Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s • F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus • SS lines • Brembo slotted discs • DHP tuned • Aeroforce • Hidden Hitch


'05 GTO • 49k miles • 0-60: 4.8s • 16.9 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun
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playa
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PostSubject: Re: Transmission slow to shift - any ideas???   Thu Feb 23, 2012 3:22 am

Appears it is gone entirely. Mind you, I haven't heard or felt anything that would suggest a catastrophic failure - that's why I'm asking if there's a module that could be going bad, but from all the sites I've visited, the 4th gear shaft is a primary culprit for the 4t65E transmissions - Bright side, I still have the 3 most important gears happy
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LARRY70GS
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PostSubject: Re: Transmission slow to shift - any ideas???   Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:14 pm

Mark,
Have you tried leaving the selector in "3", and then moving it to OD at around 45 MPH?

_________________
98 Riviera SC3800  All stock except gutted air box.
1970 Buick GS455 Stage1, TSP built 470BBB, 602HP/589TQ
Best MPH, 116.06 MPH, Best ET, 11.54
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playa
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PostSubject: Re: Transmission slow to shift - any ideas???   Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:24 pm

LARRY70GS wrote:
Mark,
Have you tried leaving the selector in "3", and then moving it to OD at around 45 MPH?

Yep. Sorta sucks too. I just bet my father in law that his transmission in his Chrysler van will go out this year- 250,000 miles and he's changed the fluid once. I change mine every 15-20K miles and this is what happens. Like I said, I still have 1-3 and thankfully, I've got options if a rebuild is necessary. I'm half tempted to do it myself. You know how many good Buicks I see with bad trannys selling for dirt cheap.
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AA
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PostSubject: Re: Transmission slow to shift - any ideas???   Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:32 pm

Unless you've rebuilt an automatic before, might want to leave it to a pro. You can save a lot of money though by removing and installing the unit yourself.

_________________
'98 SC Riviera • 268k miles • 298 HP/370 TQ • 0-60: 5.79s • ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 • 4087 lb • 20.1 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley • AL104 plugs • 180Ί t-stat • FWI w/K&N • 1.9:1 rockers • OR pushrods • LS6 valve springs • SLP headers • ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts • MaxAir shocks • Addco sway bars • UMI bushings • GM STB • Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s • F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus • SS lines • Brembo slotted discs • DHP tuned • Aeroforce • Hidden Hitch


'05 GTO • 49k miles • 0-60: 4.8s • 16.9 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun
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playa
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PostSubject: Re: Transmission slow to shift - any ideas???   Fri Feb 24, 2012 6:33 pm

Well, took it over to local tranny shop with decent reviews. They threw it on the machine- confirmed that the computer is telling it to shft - but that the gear is not responding. They said they couldn't tell if it's a solenoid issue of the shaft issue until they tore into it. That said, I'm content in knowing that my other gears are there and responding. I've read that some people go months just with the 3 gears. price quote $1900 to R& R and additional costs if hard parts need replacing like gears, shafts, butt lube. afraid
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playa
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PostSubject: Re: Transmission slow to shift - any ideas???   Wed Feb 29, 2012 3:53 am

Dropping off the Riv tomorrow to the shop. Called 3 places and after comparing prices, warranty and my overall judgement - I settled on Ammco. That is the one I got the best vibe from and online they had awesome reviews at that location. I'll be asking to see the parts they replace and they seemed pretty receptive to taking pictures and giving me any info that you guys would find useful. Plus, they said they would honor a military discount which is always a +. Anyway, will find out more shortly and I fill you all in on what happens
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Jason
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PostSubject: Re: Transmission slow to shift - any ideas???   Wed Feb 29, 2012 2:49 pm

The "soft shifting" or gradual degradation in performance could be poor line pressure rise due to leaking boost valve, clogged EPC filter screen, failing EPC solenoid, or worst case: leaky seals throughout. Seal restorer may fix the latter, but you're probably looking at R&R.

Can you confirm that you have both 1st AND 2nd gear ? i.e. that you only have 4th gear missing ? not 1 AND 4 or 2 AND 4 ?
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playa
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PostSubject: Re: Transmission slow to shift - any ideas???   Wed Feb 29, 2012 3:55 pm

1st thru 3rd were present and functioning - although I did notice when I chose just to pop it in to 3rd gear and drive like that - it seemed to shift at a later point than before. I read somewhere on here or maybe another site that higher shift points is normal when it's not in 4th/OD. R&R is coming regardless. I'm just awaiting the diagnosis right now.
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AA
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PostSubject: Re: Transmission slow to shift - any ideas???   Wed Feb 29, 2012 8:10 pm

I really don't think it makes a difference shifting from 1-2-3 when in 3rd lock-out. I don't notice on mine anyway, You may notice a different feel because TCC locks-up in 3rd as well as in 4th, but it's not very noticeable when in OD.

_________________
'98 SC Riviera • 268k miles • 298 HP/370 TQ • 0-60: 5.79s • ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 • 4087 lb • 20.1 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley • AL104 plugs • 180Ί t-stat • FWI w/K&N • 1.9:1 rockers • OR pushrods • LS6 valve springs • SLP headers • ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts • MaxAir shocks • Addco sway bars • UMI bushings • GM STB • Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s • F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus • SS lines • Brembo slotted discs • DHP tuned • Aeroforce • Hidden Hitch


'05 GTO • 49k miles • 0-60: 4.8s • 16.9 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun
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http://www.cardomain.com/ride/657082/4
playa
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PostSubject: Re: Transmission slow to shift - any ideas???   Thu Mar 08, 2012 10:16 pm

Got the car back yesterday. Seems to shift awesome. They said there was a part in there that was supposed o be pulling 20 lbs of pressure but was only achieving about 12. That was just one problem. Anyway, pretty expensive deal but for the most part, I'm happy.

I have all the parts they changed out and I'll be posting pics shortly but I wanted to throw something out at you guys. I noticed a vibration at startup and it continues up until around the 800-1000RPM range (in park). They did replace the rear mount as well but I'm a little concerned. It's minimal but I have to take it back to be re torqued and topped off so I'll probably bring it up.

It took a little longer to get back because they said the Torque Converter was out of balance. Could this vibration be the same thing? I never noticed it before the tranny rebuild. Could the new mount do this? What say you guys?
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AA
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PostSubject: Re: Transmission slow to shift - any ideas???   Thu Mar 08, 2012 10:55 pm

It's the rear mount causing it, IMO. As our cars age, the interiors tend to loosen up, and things rattle more easily. Replacing the old, squishy rear mount with a solid new one allows some extra vibration to enter the cabin. There is some evidence the aftermarket mounts are a bit firmer, too. Best thing to do is hunt down the source of the noise and tighten or insulate the area of concern.

_________________
'98 SC Riviera • 268k miles • 298 HP/370 TQ • 0-60: 5.79s • ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 • 4087 lb • 20.1 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley • AL104 plugs • 180Ί t-stat • FWI w/K&N • 1.9:1 rockers • OR pushrods • LS6 valve springs • SLP headers • ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts • MaxAir shocks • Addco sway bars • UMI bushings • GM STB • Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s • F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus • SS lines • Brembo slotted discs • DHP tuned • Aeroforce • Hidden Hitch


'05 GTO • 49k miles • 0-60: 4.8s • 16.9 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun
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http://www.cardomain.com/ride/657082/4
playa
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PostSubject: Re: Transmission slow to shift - any ideas???   Thu Mar 08, 2012 11:59 pm

That's what I was thinking. I can't wait to post some pics of the parts I have - leads me to believe that the best course of action with the 4t65e transmission is to rebuild prior to that 4th hub going out. There's alot of parts I could have saved if I didn't let it go like it did.


Last edited by playa on Fri Mar 09, 2012 6:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Eldo
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PostSubject: Re: Transmission slow to shift - any ideas???   Fri Mar 09, 2012 5:43 pm

playa wrote:
price quote $1900 to R& R and additional costs if hard parts need replacing like gears, shafts, butt lube. afraid

Damn! I've been hoping thing will be cheaper in Oregon... I've been holding out on replacing the top on the Wildcat until I get up there.
(Well, at least the electricity isn't 30 cents/KWh)
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playa
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PostSubject: Re: Transmission slow to shift - any ideas???   Sun Mar 18, 2012 8:36 pm

So I return to the shop tomorrow and I found a couple things that concern me. Some are worse than others but I need confirmation of what I'm seeing before I bring these up.


Tranny lines. Obviously they're supposed to be mounted somewhere.



This shows what I believe should be a bolt but alas, there is nothing. Located topside at about the 1 oclock position of the transmission case. Should there be a bolt there?



Again, tranny lines left unfastened



This has me a little concerned. Front Transmission mount, lower bolt. Should there be a nut there.
I still have a vibration at about the 1500-2000 RPM range and at 65MPH, a pretty significant and continuous shudder. What do you guys think?
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albertj
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PostSubject: Re: Transmission slow to shift - any ideas???   Sun Mar 18, 2012 8:57 pm

front mount looks OK

check rear mount and there are 2 more - a 'can' on the front of the engine and a transmission mount on the bell housing some wheres. I don't have pics.

I am thinking the mount on the bell housing usually does not get changed out and probably finally dies.

I am thinking the rest of that loose stuff needs bolted down.
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deekster_caddy
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PostSubject: Re: Transmission slow to shift - any ideas???   Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:30 pm

Those look like power steering lines. The line running around the subframe is the PS "Cooler". The tab you showed on the transmission - not exactly sure which one you are showing, but there are two alignment holes that do not have bolts in them. There should be 5 visible bolts from the drivers side, the sixth bolt comes in from the passenger side behind the motor. If they were going to leave one out, it would have been that passenger side bolt commonly referred to as the "Bastard Bolt" because people don't know it's there, and can't pull the transmission after thinking they have removed all the bellhousing bolts.

The PS Cooler lines just thread into the subframe with those sheetmetal screws you see. Not a huge deal but you could even hold them up with a tie wrap just to ensure they don't drag on the ground. (not likely to happen)
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playa
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PostSubject: Re: Transmission slow to shift - any ideas???   Tue Mar 20, 2012 3:05 am

Thanks for the correction - I was in a hurry while posting because I had to get an answer before I left the next morning. I don't know. Sometimes a person can convince themselves there's an issue even though it's exactly how it should be.
Anyway, took it in. Mentioned the vibration. The couldn't really duplicate it so I guess I'll let it ride and see what happens. Still planning on changing the front mount and maybe swapping the wheel bearings (they've never been done yet).
I think part of my issue is that when I went to pick the car up the first time, I noticed foam hanging down in the front and found out they'd forgot to put the skid plate back on. Let that be a lesson, first impressions are so important. Pics of the parts still to come.
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