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 Write-Up: 3800 Series II SC Engine Removal & Installation

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robotennis61
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: 3800 Series II SC Engine Removal & Installation   Mon Jun 25, 2012 9:04 am

the engine looked pretty dry.Now that its a New engine,will you have to use break in oil?
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: 3800 Series II SC Engine Removal & Installation   Mon Jun 25, 2012 9:28 am

charlieRobinson wrote:
Holy Moses. This is amazing. How does it feel knowing how clean all your parts are as they go back in?

It heightens the responsibility to keep everything perfect, and to uphold that standard all the way to completion - it slows me down. But it's satisfying at the same time knowing nothing was overlooked.

Quote :
the engine looked pretty dry.Now that its a New engine,will you have to use break in oil?
No special ingredients from the builder. He said to use 10w30 oil for break-in, changing after 200 miles. I'm assuming he used some assembly lube inside. I dumped oil over each rocker before installing the valve covers. Should be ok.


_________________
'98 SC Riviera 268k miles 298 HP/370 TQ 0-60: 5.79s ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 4087 lb 20.1 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley AL104 plugs 180 t-stat FWI w/K&N 1.9:1 rockers OR pushrods LS6 valve springs SLP headers ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts MaxAir shocks Addco sway bars UMI bushings GM STB Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus SS lines Brembo slotted discs DHP tuned Aeroforce Hidden Hitch


'05 GTO 49k miles 0-60: 4.8s 16.9 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: 3800 Series II SC Engine Removal & Installation   Mon Jun 25, 2012 9:55 am

AGH! You dipped your SC needle bearings in parts cleaner! shocked

.. I wouldn't be happy with that. They need their greese. I wouldn't risk any kind of parts cleaner getting in there, its asking for a bearing to die under rotor flutter.

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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: 3800 Series II SC Engine Removal & Installation   Mon Jun 25, 2012 10:36 am

Yeah, I hear you. I wasn't going to do it, but a friend made the suggestion, and I dipped it quickly. Not sure if the bearings got submerged or not. Guess we'll see how tough these blowers really are. I have a back-up on the shelf if I need it.

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'98 SC Riviera 268k miles 298 HP/370 TQ 0-60: 5.79s ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 4087 lb 20.1 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley AL104 plugs 180 t-stat FWI w/K&N 1.9:1 rockers OR pushrods LS6 valve springs SLP headers ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts MaxAir shocks Addco sway bars UMI bushings GM STB Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus SS lines Brembo slotted discs DHP tuned Aeroforce Hidden Hitch


'05 GTO 49k miles 0-60: 4.8s 16.9 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: 3800 Series II SC Engine Removal & Installation   Mon Jun 25, 2012 10:40 am

... in that pic, the bearings are submerged.

Send me the casing of your backup, I'll make it awesome and send it back. smile

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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: 3800 Series II SC Engine Removal & Installation   Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:06 pm

Why did you use red Loctite? Red seems like it would be harder to remove in the future. I used blue when I changed my LIM gasket. I bet you are happy to have it almost all back together.

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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: 3800 Series II SC Engine Removal & Installation   Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:55 pm

I guess because most of the fasteners I removed had red thread locker from GM. If they had it originally, I used red on them this time. I didn't see a single screw using blue.

Didn't apply very much, and didn't use the primer, so assuming the cure isn't quite as strong, especially with the aluminum parts (loc-tite doesn't work with alum so well).

Probably should have gone with blue now that you mention it.

EDIT: per GM shop manual, it is recommended to use RED (GM 272 P/N 12345493) or equivalent threadlocker to LIM and rocker arm screws. I also used it on the blower and flywheel screws.

_________________
'98 SC Riviera 268k miles 298 HP/370 TQ 0-60: 5.79s ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 4087 lb 20.1 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley AL104 plugs 180 t-stat FWI w/K&N 1.9:1 rockers OR pushrods LS6 valve springs SLP headers ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts MaxAir shocks Addco sway bars UMI bushings GM STB Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus SS lines Brembo slotted discs DHP tuned Aeroforce Hidden Hitch


'05 GTO 49k miles 0-60: 4.8s 16.9 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun


Last edited by AA on Sat Aug 18, 2012 9:59 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: 3800 Series II SC Engine Removal & Installation   Mon Jun 25, 2012 2:47 pm

AA wrote:
I guess because most of the fasteners I removed had red thread locker from GM. If they had it originally, I used red on them this time. I didn't see a single screw using blue.

Didn't apply very much, and didn't use the primer, so assuming the cure isn't quite as strong, especially with the aluminum parts (loc-tite doesn't work with alum so well).

Probably should have gone with blue now that you mention it.

Didn't know that about loc-tite not working with aluminum that well. Good to know. I guess it probably won't matter too much if you used red instead of blue. You went a long time before you had to remove them and with the new gasket you should be good to go for a while. I would be a little cautious about the bearings in the blower since they have submerged in parts cleaner. I have heard them going bad when people port their blowers and don't tape over them (although that involves aluminum shavings). I know they are replaceable, so you could change them out and keep it as a spare.

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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: 3800 Series II SC Engine Removal & Installation   Mon Jun 25, 2012 2:59 pm

I'm reading a thread where some people say they have no trouble breaking loose red loctite cold:

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/general/red-loctite-question-190683/

Plus a little tip on beeswax I never knew about!

Also, from page 2 of the above thread:

"The holding strength of LocTite has a lot to do with the area that it is holding together. A 1" thread has a lot more area than a 1/4" thread, so you can almost always break loose a 1/4" LocTited fastener by hand, but not the 1" fastener without heat. Always use a stronger grade of LocTite with smaller fasteners. With large ones, the weak blue LocTite is a good choice."


If this is correct, it would explain how I was able to break free all of the OEM fasteners, including flywheel screws, with relative ease. If not, it could mean the smaller fasteners will break more easily. Not quite sure on that.

Another link: http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/archive/index.php/t-969800.html

It's mentioned an impact gun helps shock the threads, breaking the loctite free. Good to know.

_________________
'98 SC Riviera 268k miles 298 HP/370 TQ 0-60: 5.79s ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 4087 lb 20.1 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley AL104 plugs 180 t-stat FWI w/K&N 1.9:1 rockers OR pushrods LS6 valve springs SLP headers ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts MaxAir shocks Addco sway bars UMI bushings GM STB Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus SS lines Brembo slotted discs DHP tuned Aeroforce Hidden Hitch


'05 GTO 49k miles 0-60: 4.8s 16.9 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: 3800 Series II SC Engine Removal & Installation   Thu Jul 05, 2012 3:14 am

UPDATE: I tried to break loose one of the larger bolts holding the AC compressor to the block - it came out very easily. I installed with red Loc-Tite over a week ago. The thread locker had gelled, but not hardened, and offered little resistance that I could tell. I didn't heat or lube the bolt before turning it with a ratchet.

Engine is all in. Last night, on July 4th, I turned the key. The phoenix has risen! More details coming soon.


_________________
'98 SC Riviera 268k miles 298 HP/370 TQ 0-60: 5.79s ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 4087 lb 20.1 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley AL104 plugs 180 t-stat FWI w/K&N 1.9:1 rockers OR pushrods LS6 valve springs SLP headers ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts MaxAir shocks Addco sway bars UMI bushings GM STB Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus SS lines Brembo slotted discs DHP tuned Aeroforce Hidden Hitch


'05 GTO 49k miles 0-60: 4.8s 16.9 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: 3800 Series II SC Engine Removal & Installation   Thu Jul 05, 2012 9:10 am

AA wrote:
Last night, on July 4th, I turned the key.

usa
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: 3800 Series II SC Engine Removal & Installation   Thu Jul 05, 2012 9:45 am

Nice! Does she sound different?
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: 3800 Series II SC Engine Removal & Installation   Thu Jul 05, 2012 10:20 am

Not really. I haven't actually driven the car on the road yet to hear the exhaust, but from outside the idle is pretty quiet, even with the hood open.

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'98 SC Riviera 268k miles 298 HP/370 TQ 0-60: 5.79s ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 4087 lb 20.1 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley AL104 plugs 180 t-stat FWI w/K&N 1.9:1 rockers OR pushrods LS6 valve springs SLP headers ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts MaxAir shocks Addco sway bars UMI bushings GM STB Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus SS lines Brembo slotted discs DHP tuned Aeroforce Hidden Hitch


'05 GTO 49k miles 0-60: 4.8s 16.9 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun
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http://www.cardomain.com/ride/657082/4
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: 3800 Series II SC Engine Removal & Installation   Thu Jul 05, 2012 11:01 am

you lucky divil you
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: 3800 Series II SC Engine Removal & Installation   Thu Jul 05, 2012 11:44 am

cheers Here's to another 200k+ miles!

_________________
'98 SC Riviera 268k miles 298 HP/370 TQ 0-60: 5.79s ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 4087 lb 20.1 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley AL104 plugs 180 t-stat FWI w/K&N 1.9:1 rockers OR pushrods LS6 valve springs SLP headers ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts MaxAir shocks Addco sway bars UMI bushings GM STB Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus SS lines Brembo slotted discs DHP tuned Aeroforce Hidden Hitch


'05 GTO 49k miles 0-60: 4.8s 16.9 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun
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http://www.cardomain.com/ride/657082/4
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: 3800 Series II SC Engine Removal & Installation   Thu Jul 05, 2012 12:09 pm

vroom vroom.

Post pics! and vid! and all that good stuff!

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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: 3800 Series II SC Engine Removal & Installation   Thu Jul 05, 2012 1:27 pm

Wow! Im glad it worked out! Happy driving! 3gears
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: 3800 Series II SC Engine Removal & Installation   Tue Jul 31, 2012 9:05 am

Aaron, how is she running? Perfect without a hitch, I assume. Do you notice any difference in the feel of the ride, drive, power?
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: 3800 Series II SC Engine Removal & Installation   Tue Jul 31, 2012 9:23 am

Runs great. I passed the 200 mile break-in period & oil change. Honestly, I could hardly feel any difference in power at first, but it did run smoother and quieter (wrapped headers). Otherwise it felt like the same engine I had two months ago.

Then after 500 miles I started giving it more throttle, trying a few WOT runs. Very confident feel from this engine. I can tell nothing is going to break. The higher RPMs really makes me smile because it pulls more solidly all the way to redline! Now approaching 1000 miles, I'm starting to notice the rings are sealing against the bores - there is more power now. The most noticeable thing is when I drop the hammer from a 60 mph cruise, throttle response is pretty wicked. It just kicks you in the back and the speedo climbs. Oh, I have been watching KR, too. Not under any curcumstance have I seen more than 1.6 deg. I set the warning lamp on the Aeroforce to flash at 2 deg, and haven't been able to reach it yet. This is at 90-95 F ambient!

_________________
'98 SC Riviera 268k miles 298 HP/370 TQ 0-60: 5.79s ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 4087 lb 20.1 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley AL104 plugs 180 t-stat FWI w/K&N 1.9:1 rockers OR pushrods LS6 valve springs SLP headers ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts MaxAir shocks Addco sway bars UMI bushings GM STB Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus SS lines Brembo slotted discs DHP tuned Aeroforce Hidden Hitch


'05 GTO 49k miles 0-60: 4.8s 16.9 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: 3800 Series II SC Engine Removal & Installation   Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:01 am

Holy cow Aaron, that's awesome! The engine builder certainly knew what he was doing with the rebuild, and you certainly put it all back together perfectly! Very very cool! I only live about two hours away from you. I think I might need a ride in this car smile .
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: 3800 Series II SC Engine Removal & Installation   Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:07 am

Aaron, I know a hypothesis we had over the calamity you experienced on the track was about your oil pump not circulating fast enough. Have you thought about how you will remedy this before your next track day?
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: 3800 Series II SC Engine Removal & Installation   Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:33 am

Andrew, I have family in East Liverpool, and sometimes I go to Beaver for work. We'll have to arrange a ride/drive some time.

charlieRob, I haven't got the oil analysis back yet (need to send it out). However I did eventually develop some concrete theories about why the engine failed, and the biggest factor was knock. After I got back the injector flow graphs, surprise, surprise, injector #1 had the worst flow, meaning it had the leanest A/F mixture = knock city in cylinder #1. #6 was also not good, but not as bad as #1. It's possible that all or most of the KR we saw on the WOT portions was originating from cyls #1 and #6.

More on how I concluded that knock chipped the piston, leading to the bearing failure: http://rivperformance.editboard.com/t9359-question-re-chipped-pistons#146487

The fuel injector analysis, confirming #1 had a lean condition (see 2nd graph):
http://rivperformance.editboard.com/t1731p30-fuel-injector-cleaning#148307

Not ruling out that oil contributed to the bearing failure, but everything I know points to the piston chip happening first, a result of heavy detonation. All other pistons and bearings were in very good shape according to Bill.

Also, there is a "chirp, chirp" sound w/ some squeal coming from the accessory belt. Still working on curing this, but otherwise the engine is running perfect.


_________________
'98 SC Riviera 268k miles 298 HP/370 TQ 0-60: 5.79s ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 4087 lb 20.1 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley AL104 plugs 180 t-stat FWI w/K&N 1.9:1 rockers OR pushrods LS6 valve springs SLP headers ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts MaxAir shocks Addco sway bars UMI bushings GM STB Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus SS lines Brembo slotted discs DHP tuned Aeroforce Hidden Hitch


'05 GTO 49k miles 0-60: 4.8s 16.9 avg MPG Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun
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PostSubject: Little snags with the motor swap.   Wed Jun 26, 2013 10:01 pm

I have pretty much everything good to go for the engine/trans to drop out on the cradle, but im running into a few problems.

1. Where/how do i disconnect the steering column from the rack? (the most important question)
2. The trans pan on the trans i bought to go in the car has a pipe fitting on it... What would this be for? Could i use this to run a trans cooler?
3. Is it ok that the boots are not attached on my shocks up front?
4. Is it ok that there is a gap between the bushing and the sway bar when the car is lifted up and the steering knuckle is disconnected?
5. Legally, what are you supposed to do with used coolant? Lol

Probably more questions coming soon!
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: 3800 Series II SC Engine Removal & Installation   Wed Jun 26, 2013 10:15 pm

As far as the coolant goes, some gas stations have fluid deposits. Otherwise call up the nearest recycle place, they could give you a for sure answer.
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PostSubject: Re: Write-Up: 3800 Series II SC Engine Removal & Installation   Wed Jun 26, 2013 10:48 pm

2. where is the pipe fitting located? could it be someone installed it to aid in draining the pan?
3. the boots are there to keep dirt out of the pistons of the shocks. Yeas it will run fine without them, but you may not get the expected life out of them if you live in a dusty area/part outside/drive on dirt roads, etc.
4. The gap is normal if one wheel is off the ground putting strain on the sway bar. If the front end is on stands and the knuckle is off the LCA drops down and you could have a gap between the sway bar and middle bushing. a pic would help here.
5. see above for legal response.

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