Charlie Robinson's '99 Riv

stan wrote:

350 +HP engines are bad on fuel, so around 300 is alright.

350+hp 3800?

MPH>MPG

Ohh yeah,you guys remember how ewolfe moded his Riv pushing 350+ HP.....but it was  bad on gas.

For MPG, It's not how much HP you make, but how you make it (and how often). I believe the best way to keep stock MPG is to keep stock injectors, stock cam, and stock trans. I've seen mid 30s cruising MPG with mods in sig. I don't think an extra 50 HP (IC, pulley, tune) would impact MPG much at all.

Of course, I'm talking crank and you're talking wheel. Point is, 300 or 350, it won't matter. Damage to economy is already done with the cam install.

AA wrote:

stock injectors

You can actually upgrade to better injectors and not lose any economy as long as they're tuned properly.

With a cam, you kinda have to take a hit on city mpg no matter what. There's no tricks to counter that in tuning. There's more air/fuel just skipping right around the combustion cycle into the exhaust (promoting positive exhaust flow). I've found that my highway is still great though. I assume the higher VE you get from a cam as you increase load and rpm helps the highway mpg especially if it's tuned with the right timing, transmission settings, etc. And with the car being aerodynamic, it just does better and better with more speed.

Injectors are funny sometimes. If the dynamic of spraying and atomization were taken out of the equation, the injector would not affect mpg unless you were running a large enough injector to be hitting minimum pulse width meaning the computer wants less fuel but the injector is already delivering the minimum possible. I haven't encountered that as far as I know even running 80lb injectors with gas. If running stock fuel rails and say 42lb injectors that aren't junk, I wouldn't expect any change in mpg at all.

Quote :

You can actually upgrade to better injectors and not lose any economy as long as they're tuned properly.

If by "better" you mean bigger, there's mixed opinion on this. Most tune for proper A/F and flow rate so the PCM delivers correct fueling to run the engine run smoothly at idle/cruise/WOT. But I don't think that necessarily means fuel atomization is optimized like it would be using OEM 33-36 lb injectors with OEM pump. If there were a way to regulate PSI for optimal flow (and atomization) using higher PSI injectors with OEM pump, that would work, but I think most tuners are more concerned with getting proper flow rate to for correct A/F ratio. I don't even know if it's even possible to optimize both with an OEM pump and regulator.

I'm basing my opinion on research, not actual experience with injector swapping. Everything I've read points to lost MPG with larger injectors due to less-optimized atomization. If I saw someone using 60 lb/hr injectors and getting mid 30s MPG, they'd definately have my attention!

AA wrote:

Quote :

You can actually upgrade to better injectors and not lose any economy as long as they're tuned properly.

If by "better" you mean bigger, there's mixed opinion on this. Most tune for proper A/F and flow rate so the PCM delivers correct fueling to run the engine run smoothly at idle/cruise/WOT. But I don't think that necessarily means fuel atomization is optimized like it would be using OEM 33-36 lb injectors with OEM pump. If there were a way to regulate PSI for optimal flow (and atomization) using higher PSI injectors with OEM pump, that would work, but I think most tuners are more concerned with getting proper flow rate to for correct A/F ratio. I don't even know if it's even possible to optimize both with an OEM pump and regulator.

I'm basing my opinion on research, not actual experience with injector swapping. Everything I've read points to lost MPG with larger injectors due to less-optimized atomization. If I saw someone using 60 lb/hr injectors and getting mid 30s MPG, they'd definately have my attention!

I'm just going off of research too, but from what I've read it comes down to 2 simple things. First of which being that if you just upgrade the injectors and nothing else changes you will not gain/lose any MPG or power because the same amount of fuel is still being pushed through them. Since they are bigger you will have a rougher idle because the same amount of gas is being pushed through a bigger area (make sense?). The second thing is something I'm sure you and I can agree on and that is most people upgrade other things as well when they upgrade injectors so they will drive harder and lose some MPG from the mods. The way some people tune them is to just dump fuel into the engine causing a loss in MPG.

I'm not trying to be mean here and if you find something to disprove me please show it. I'm sure somebody on here who has gone to bigger injectors can speak on it and give a good answer.

Quote :

Since they are bigger you will have a rougher idle because the same amount of gas is being pushed through a bigger area (make sense?).

The reason for this is larger injectors exhibit worse atomization when using OEM pump pressure. Instead of a fine mist, they dribble (Bernoulli's principle states fluid has lower velocity through a larger diameter).

Atomization is also very important for fuel economy, and is one reason why direct injection achieves such high MPG with high comp ratios, even using forced induction.

There's a relationship between injector, pump, filter, and regulator. They create the optimum pressure for correct atomization. If you change any of these parts, the relationship results in a less optimum pressure.

The PCM controls flow rate by the amount of time it opens each injector, so even though you get the right amount of fuel into the combustion chamber, I wouldn't bet on the atomization part being right.

Thanks, ZZP....................

Nice Charlie.........

I dont know if i am missing something or what, but the adapater plate is not fitting properly on the TB and it doesnt have the vacuum port tapped like the website shows.

Any ideas?

Did you get your own northstar tb? I don't see the rubber gasket in on it - do you have it? Anyway you just need to remove those two location spring pins at the bottom of the tb. Just take some needle nose pliers and work them out - pretty easy. As for the vacuum port on the adapter, are you saying they just have a hole in it? Mine had an elbow barb fitting pressed in like whats on the stock northstar tb in your pic and the zzp product pic. If you're missing that, I'd contact zzp or deal with it yourself as in tap it and install an npt fitting

turtleman wrote:

Did you get your own northstar tb? I don't see the rubber gasket in on it - do you have it? Anyway you just need to remove those two location spring pins at the bottom of the tb. Just take some needle nose pliers and work them out - pretty easy. As for the vacuum port on the adapter, are you saying they just have a hole in it? Mine had an elbow barb fitting pressed in like whats on the stock northstar tb in your pic and the zzp product pic. If you're missing that, I'd contact zzp or deal with it yourself as in tap it and install an npt fitting

ZZP sent me a junkyard TB..... all grimey too. prretty pissed paying $$$ for it..

No rubber gasket for it either! I emailed them about that, wtf

Roger that on the removal of the two pin things. I thought they were supposed to line up with the adapter! one fits in but the other doesnt!

This adapter doesnt have a vacuum port adapter. I emailed ZZP about this too.

WTF ZZP!   

Hope they sent me the right freaking cam...


EDIT:

Is the adapter plate supposed to cover the coolant passages on the supercharger inlet?

If the adapter doesn't have any port or hole at all, I'd say that's ok. The one I got 2nd hand for the genV/north* didn't have anything - no hole at all. If that's how yours is, I'd say leave it be. You can tap into vacuum somewhere else for that line. Otherwise if you have a hole with no fitting zzp f'd up.

I think the plate is supposed to cover the s/c-tb coolant ports. (I can't confirm though because mine is mounted upside down and I actually milled off that area of the plate) You just put a very light bead of rtv around them and around the inlet on the s/c, let it sit on there exposed to air for a little bit like maybe 15-20 min so that it gets tacky enough to sorta hold its shape if you just lightly touch it with your finger then install the plate and wipe off any excess rtv. If you don't do that exactly to my instruction, I'm sure it'll still be just fine but that's the best way IMO.

Yes, the coolant ports get blocked off. I recommend taking off the S/C and plugging the coolant ports on the LIM like I did. After that, you'll have to remove that little plate on the LIM under the TB and knock the "wall" out of the LIM to allow more coolant to pass through. If you don't, you restrict coolant flow to the rear head. ZZP doesn't tell you that either.

EDIT: I swear I had a pic on here of how I knocked that "wall" out. I can't seem to find it.

FOUND. I sanded down 2 dimes to fit snug in the holes. First I cleaned out the bores with a wire Battery Terminal cleaner, then put some GMS in the hole, and smacked the dimes in with a center punch. I then used GMS over top of the holes.


See the "wall" I'm talking about? It needs to be hacked away with an Aluminum Bur.

Scott, that looks scary..

I wont have too much trouble if I just leave mine the way it is, will i?

turtleman wrote:

If the adapter doesn't have any port or hole at all, I'd say that's ok. The one I got 2nd hand for the genV/north* didn't have anything - no hole at all. If that's how yours is, I'd say leave it be. You can tap into vacuum somewhere else for that line. Otherwise if you have a hole with no fitting zzp f'd up.

I think the plate is supposed to cover the s/c-tb coolant ports. (I can't confirm though because mine is mounted upside down and I actually milled off that area of the plate) You just put a very light bead of rtv around them and around the inlet on the s/c, let it sit on there exposed to air for a little bit like maybe 15-20 min so that it gets tacky enough to sorta hold its shape if you just lightly touch it with your finger then install the plate and wipe off any excess rtv. If you don't do that exactly to my instruction, I'm sure it'll still be just fine but that's the best way IMO.

I thought the adapter place should be tapped to get vacuum there? I dont have the means to tap it myself.

The plate does cover the coolant ports on the gen V blower. From what I see on the net and from what you mentioned, i just need to make circles of RTV around them to seal it.

No idea why they didnt provide the gasket for the N* TB.  I thought I was paying a premium so I didnt have to waste my time going on a scavenger hunt for all the parts myself..

Here are some pics from last Friday before she went to Detroit.






What is are these called? They are 2 arms that attach to the rear control arms, I think? Are there replacements available I can swap in or do I have to get lucky at the junk yard? Only serious rust I can find on the car are these.

Thanks for the link , AA. Looks like I have some homework to do.


Bill just let me know the engine is finished and looking good. They are dropping it back off the shop today to get it installed and road tested.

I am still terrified something will go wrong...

Cant wait to hear that xp cam idle though

Cool stuff. Don't be scurred. You're gonna love it. It's going to take lots of tuning on your part though....

charlieRobinson wrote:

Thanks, ZZP....................





 

ZZP said I should just use RTV for the gasket here. What do you guys think? I have spent $2000+ at their store. I think I should get the proper freaking gasket for this $350 kit...

WTF 

Now this is interesting....

This is an update within the last 24 hours to zzp's website.

They no longer provide the TB with the kit

In the wise words of a young nerd..

'DID I DO THATTTT???'

That's interesting... It does make it easier though for those of us that want to piece it together ourselves. As for any of the issues you're having I would just call them up and complain. You could even make a trip up to them (you said you were going there for a dyno tune, right?) with the car on a trailer. Then just shove everything that didn't work in their faces and tell them to get it together.

Do NOT use RTV for that gasket. Go to the parts store and get the proper one. Just ask for the TB gasket for an '02 Cadillac STS with a N* V8. Take the TB with you to make sure it fits.