| Differences in Superchargers | |
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AA Administrator
Name : Aaron Age : 47 Location : C-bus, Ohio Joined : 2007-01-13 Post Count : 18452 Merit : 252
| Subject: Differences in Superchargers Thu Nov 08, 2007 1:10 pm | |
| I found this graph a couple years ago, and found it interesting. Yes, I know there's a turbo in there, but it's a type of supercharger. The various types of superchargers are correctly named below: Note how closely the Roots blower's torque curve follows boost. Also, the power advantage of the turbo is very clear on this graph, as well as its peaky delivery. _________________ '05 GTO 6.0L • 6-spd • 95k miles • 0-60: 4.8s • 16.9 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26'95 Celica GT 2.2L • 5-spd • 165k miles • 0-60: yes'98 SC Riviera • 281k miles • 298 HP/370 TQ • 0-60: 5.79s • ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 • 4087 lb • 20.1 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30 3.4" pulley • AL104 plugs • 180º t-stat • FWI w/K&N • 1.9:1 rockers • OR pushrods • LS6 valve springs • SLP headers • ZZP fuel rails KYB GR2 struts • MaxAir shocks • Addco sway bars • UMI bushings • GM STB • Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s • F-body calipers EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus • SS lines • Brembo slotted discs • DHP tuned • Aeroforce • Hidden Hitch^^^ SOLD ^^^ '70 Ninety-Eight Holiday Coupe 455cid • 116k miles^^^ SOLD ^^^ | |
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turtleman Expert
Name : Codith Age : 37 Location : Villa Park, IL Joined : 2007-02-08 Post Count : 3671 Merit : 140
| Subject: Re: Differences in Superchargers Thu Nov 08, 2007 1:32 pm | |
| It's shocking to see a turbo yields more low initial torque than a centrifugal blower and also strange to see that the turbo levels off. I figured it would continue on up.. more so than the centrifugal | |
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deekster_caddy Master
Name : Derek Age : 52 Location : Reading, MA Joined : 2007-01-31 Post Count : 7717 Merit : 109
| Subject: Re: Differences in Superchargers Thu Nov 08, 2007 4:09 pm | |
| turbo depends a lot on other factors. Another reason I like belt-driven superchargers - the consistency is hard to beat. The low end torque is where it's at anyway. I prefer a grunty low end motor to a high revving one. More fuel efficient and less rotating speed = less chance of breakage | |
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AA Administrator
Name : Aaron Age : 47 Location : C-bus, Ohio Joined : 2007-01-13 Post Count : 18452 Merit : 252
| Subject: Re: Differences in Superchargers Thu Nov 08, 2007 5:48 pm | |
| The engines used in these tests must've been monsters. On the dyno, my car's max wheel torque was about where the centrifugal blower's starts at 2500 RPM!
A lot of people think turbos have superior fuel efficiency compared to roots blowers. Their reasoning might be that turbos are more "efficient" power adders, that blowers suck power from the engine, and that turbos don't use much fuel at cruising speeds. But they don't consider that an efficient power adder doesn't mean a fuel efficient one, blowers require almost no power at cruising RPMs, and they often forget about our boost bypass, which effectively turns the motor from FI into 8.5:1 N/A. _________________ '05 GTO 6.0L • 6-spd • 95k miles • 0-60: 4.8s • 16.9 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26'95 Celica GT 2.2L • 5-spd • 165k miles • 0-60: yes'98 SC Riviera • 281k miles • 298 HP/370 TQ • 0-60: 5.79s • ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 • 4087 lb • 20.1 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30 3.4" pulley • AL104 plugs • 180º t-stat • FWI w/K&N • 1.9:1 rockers • OR pushrods • LS6 valve springs • SLP headers • ZZP fuel rails KYB GR2 struts • MaxAir shocks • Addco sway bars • UMI bushings • GM STB • Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s • F-body calipers EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus • SS lines • Brembo slotted discs • DHP tuned • Aeroforce • Hidden Hitch^^^ SOLD ^^^ '70 Ninety-Eight Holiday Coupe 455cid • 116k miles^^^ SOLD ^^^ | |
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Mr.Riviera Expert
Name : Matthew Age : 38 Location : Florida Joined : 2007-01-17 Post Count : 4394 Merit : 101
| Subject: Re: Differences in Superchargers Thu Nov 08, 2007 7:23 pm | |
| - AA wrote:
- which effectively turns the motor from FI into 8.5:1 N/A.
which is why going up hills slowly in OD feels like the car is chugging along 1600rpm and 8.5 compression = great on gas _________________ 1996 with 254k miles, L32 4" FWI -> ported N* -> Ported Gen V w/3.0" Pulley, Stage 3 Phenolic I/C, ZZP FMHE, 1.84 RR, Headers and 3" pipe to mufflers, F-body brakes, and lowered on Eibachs. -RIP AMG C400 White on black. Stage 2 w/E30 - 11.9@117 -daily | |
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AA Administrator
Name : Aaron Age : 47 Location : C-bus, Ohio Joined : 2007-01-13 Post Count : 18452 Merit : 252
| Subject: Re: Differences in Superchargers Thu Nov 08, 2007 9:46 pm | |
| Yeah, I got tired of that pretty fast. PowrTuner to the rescue! Of course, if I ever want to chug, I just put it into cruise and it's back to the old way. _________________ '05 GTO 6.0L • 6-spd • 95k miles • 0-60: 4.8s • 16.9 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26'95 Celica GT 2.2L • 5-spd • 165k miles • 0-60: yes'98 SC Riviera • 281k miles • 298 HP/370 TQ • 0-60: 5.79s • ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 • 4087 lb • 20.1 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30 3.4" pulley • AL104 plugs • 180º t-stat • FWI w/K&N • 1.9:1 rockers • OR pushrods • LS6 valve springs • SLP headers • ZZP fuel rails KYB GR2 struts • MaxAir shocks • Addco sway bars • UMI bushings • GM STB • Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s • F-body calipers EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus • SS lines • Brembo slotted discs • DHP tuned • Aeroforce • Hidden Hitch^^^ SOLD ^^^ '70 Ninety-Eight Holiday Coupe 455cid • 116k miles^^^ SOLD ^^^ | |
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TType_Riviera Fanatic
Name : Rob Age : 42 Location : ohio Joined : 2007-03-05 Post Count : 422 Merit : 0
| Subject: Re: Differences in Superchargers Thu Nov 08, 2007 10:52 pm | |
| ofcourse with an effective tuning solution...during regualar driving you can have the ecu lean out the mixture to get optimum mileage.
I have never seen exactly how efficient the centrifugal style was on paper...and i always wondered why the mustang guys used them... i guess though you pretty much have the efficiency of a turbo,with superior intercooling vs a regular roots/screw.. | |
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turtleman Expert
Name : Codith Age : 37 Location : Villa Park, IL Joined : 2007-02-08 Post Count : 3671 Merit : 140
| Subject: Re: Differences in Superchargers Thu Nov 08, 2007 11:28 pm | |
| - TType_Riviera wrote:
I have never seen exactly how efficient the centrifugal style was on paper...and i always wondered why the mustang guys used them... i guess though you pretty much have the efficiency of a turbo,with superior intercooling vs a regular roots/screw.. the thunderbird super coupes have intercooled M90s on them. but they are older and make less power. I hoped that using that style housing on the L67 might be possible to utilize air to air intercooling but I see no way to do it | |
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AA Administrator
Name : Aaron Age : 47 Location : C-bus, Ohio Joined : 2007-01-13 Post Count : 18452 Merit : 252
| Subject: Re: Differences in Superchargers Fri Nov 09, 2007 9:16 am | |
| quote: "ofcourse with an effective tuning solution...during regualar driving you can have the ecu lean out the mixture to get optimum mileage."
I've never tried this, as I thought the PCM would just compensate. But I have read about some advancing the timing really far to get 45+ mpg.
quote: "i guess though you pretty much have the efficiency of a turbo,with superior intercooling vs a regular roots/screw.."
Centrifugals also sound really cool! Better than Whipple, imo.
quote: "I hoped that using that style housing on the L67 might be possible to utilize air to air intercooling but I see no way to do it"
Believe it or not, it's possible to do air-to-air intercooling on the L67 with the factory blower. _________________ '05 GTO 6.0L • 6-spd • 95k miles • 0-60: 4.8s • 16.9 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26'95 Celica GT 2.2L • 5-spd • 165k miles • 0-60: yes'98 SC Riviera • 281k miles • 298 HP/370 TQ • 0-60: 5.79s • ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 • 4087 lb • 20.1 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30 3.4" pulley • AL104 plugs • 180º t-stat • FWI w/K&N • 1.9:1 rockers • OR pushrods • LS6 valve springs • SLP headers • ZZP fuel rails KYB GR2 struts • MaxAir shocks • Addco sway bars • UMI bushings • GM STB • Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s • F-body calipers EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus • SS lines • Brembo slotted discs • DHP tuned • Aeroforce • Hidden Hitch^^^ SOLD ^^^ '70 Ninety-Eight Holiday Coupe 455cid • 116k miles^^^ SOLD ^^^ | |
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Karma Aficionado
Name : Andrew Age : 40 Location : Ontario, Canada Joined : 2008-01-14 Post Count : 1949 Merit : 123
| Subject: Sweet article on supercharging Tue Jan 13, 2009 11:05 am | |
| Sweet article on supercharging:
http://www.jagweb.com/aj6eng/supercharging_article.html _________________ | |
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AA Administrator
Name : Aaron Age : 47 Location : C-bus, Ohio Joined : 2007-01-13 Post Count : 18452 Merit : 252
| Subject: Re: Differences in Superchargers Tue Jan 13, 2009 11:24 am | |
| Very good read, Andrew! One of the things to keep in mind - the inefficiency of a roots blower has one small advantage: it helps in keeping the torque curve flat. If it were more efficient, like a turbo, you would get more power up top, but the roots design encourages that strong low-end grunt, albeit less horsepower output overall. Twin screw is my personal favorite. Perfect power delivery, imo! _________________ '05 GTO 6.0L • 6-spd • 95k miles • 0-60: 4.8s • 16.9 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26'95 Celica GT 2.2L • 5-spd • 165k miles • 0-60: yes'98 SC Riviera • 281k miles • 298 HP/370 TQ • 0-60: 5.79s • ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 • 4087 lb • 20.1 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30 3.4" pulley • AL104 plugs • 180º t-stat • FWI w/K&N • 1.9:1 rockers • OR pushrods • LS6 valve springs • SLP headers • ZZP fuel rails KYB GR2 struts • MaxAir shocks • Addco sway bars • UMI bushings • GM STB • Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s • F-body calipers EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus • SS lines • Brembo slotted discs • DHP tuned • Aeroforce • Hidden Hitch^^^ SOLD ^^^ '70 Ninety-Eight Holiday Coupe 455cid • 116k miles^^^ SOLD ^^^ | |
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Karma Aficionado
Name : Andrew Age : 40 Location : Ontario, Canada Joined : 2008-01-14 Post Count : 1949 Merit : 123
| Subject: Re: Differences in Superchargers Tue Jan 13, 2009 11:30 am | |
| and another article on flow for the m62, basic, but a good read nonetheless: http://www.aerospaceboy.com/384/analysis.htm
and more: http://www.corvetteactioncenter.com/specs/c6/2009/zr1/blower.html
and a very helpful pic: http://www.corvetteactioncenter.com/specs/c6/2009/zr1/images/64266.gif _________________ | |
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hotrod58 Amateur
Name : Josh Age : 36 Location : McPherson Kansas Joined : 2008-12-11 Post Count : 22 Merit : 0
| Subject: Re: Differences in Superchargers Tue Jan 13, 2009 4:05 pm | |
| so what kind of superchargers does our Riviera have factory? | |
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AA Administrator
Name : Aaron Age : 47 Location : C-bus, Ohio Joined : 2007-01-13 Post Count : 18452 Merit : 252
| Subject: Re: Differences in Superchargers Tue Jan 13, 2009 4:08 pm | |
| Roots blower, manufactured by Eaton:
http://www.eaton.com/EatonCom/ProductsServices/PerformanceProducts/Products/Superchargers/M90/index.htm
Detail drawing (this is different from the older Gen III used on the Riviera):
http://www.eaton.com/ecm/groups/public/@pub/@eaton/@per/documents/content/ct_167919.jpg _________________ '05 GTO 6.0L • 6-spd • 95k miles • 0-60: 4.8s • 16.9 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26'95 Celica GT 2.2L • 5-spd • 165k miles • 0-60: yes'98 SC Riviera • 281k miles • 298 HP/370 TQ • 0-60: 5.79s • ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 • 4087 lb • 20.1 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30 3.4" pulley • AL104 plugs • 180º t-stat • FWI w/K&N • 1.9:1 rockers • OR pushrods • LS6 valve springs • SLP headers • ZZP fuel rails KYB GR2 struts • MaxAir shocks • Addco sway bars • UMI bushings • GM STB • Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s • F-body calipers EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus • SS lines • Brembo slotted discs • DHP tuned • Aeroforce • Hidden Hitch^^^ SOLD ^^^ '70 Ninety-Eight Holiday Coupe 455cid • 116k miles^^^ SOLD ^^^ | |
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Karma Aficionado
Name : Andrew Age : 40 Location : Ontario, Canada Joined : 2008-01-14 Post Count : 1949 Merit : 123
| Subject: Re: Differences in Superchargers Tue Jan 13, 2009 4:19 pm | |
| - hotrod58 wrote:
- so what kind of superchargers does our Riviera have factory?
and the m62 in the riveria(95 year, series one engine) is a Gen 3 M62 which saw epoxy coated rotors and a 2.8" pulley. Not to be confused with the previous Gen M62's that did not have coated rotors and as a result needed a smaller pulley(2.55") to make the same boost. Visually you can tell the difference in the veins that go doen the sides of the SC casing. If they go all the way down the sides, its an older one. If they stop at the top rounds on the top of the SC, its a Gen 3 M62. _________________ | |
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| Subject: Re: Differences in Superchargers | |
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| Differences in Superchargers | |
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