Name : Cliff Joined : 2020-09-01Post Count : 133 Merit : 1
Subject: ZZP front exhaust log and crossover heat shield Wed Nov 18, 2020 2:58 pm
I am sure these two things have been discussed on here already but have patience with a newbie From anyone who has tried these two things, do they help? Thanks
LARRY70GS Aficionado
Name : Larry Age : 68 Location : Oakland Gardens, NY Joined : 2007-01-23Post Count : 2193 Merit : 150
Subject: Re: ZZP front exhaust log and crossover heat shield Thu Nov 19, 2020 8:47 am
Steve Ruconic (71stagegs) has the front log on his 98. The stock front exhaust manifold is incredibly restrictive. He showed me pictures when he did it. There is no question that it helps.
_________________ 98 Riviera SC3800 All stock except gutted air box. 1970 Buick GS455 Stage1, TSP built 470BBB, 602HP/589TQ Best MPH, 116.06 MPH, Best ET, 11.54 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHCda-t_Jls https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfT2tEO4XcU
Jack the R Master
Joined : 2007-01-16Post Count : 8070 Merit : 105
Subject: Re: ZZP front exhaust log and crossover heat shield Thu Nov 19, 2020 9:19 am
I haven't tried one, but I'm considering it. People say the rear manifold is almost as good as a header, so most of the improvement is to be found in the front. The cost-to-benefit ratio for the plog is compelling. Considering headers are nearly a grand before installation, and their stage two intercooler is $1100, maybe it is better to go with the plog and intercooler? I don't know, but I'm guessing the plog is the better option unless you are going for the absolute maximum amount of horsepower you can get out of a 3800. Which will cost several thousand dollars, and if you need that much performance maybe you should be thinking about LS-swapping another platform.
Plog is only $150 - I think that's the way I'm going.
Cliff96 Enthusiast
Name : Cliff Joined : 2020-09-01Post Count : 133 Merit : 1
Subject: Re: ZZP front exhaust log and crossover heat shield Thu Nov 19, 2020 1:25 pm
I'm not looking for a lot of mods I'm just interested in things that help the stock engine run cooler and perform at its best. Thanks for the feedback
albertj Master
Name : Location : Finger Lakes of New York State Joined : 2007-05-31Post Count : 8685 Merit : 181
Subject: Re: ZZP front exhaust log and crossover heat shield Thu Nov 19, 2020 9:53 pm
Cliff96 wrote:
I'm not looking for a lot of mods I'm just interested in things that help the stock engine run cooler and perform at its best. Thanks for the feedback
You'll even see performance improve with just porting the stock exhaust manifold (I did).
Cliff96 likes this post
Z-type Aficionado
Name : Andrew Zamiska Age : 37 Location : Cecil, PA - 25 miles south of Pittsburgh Joined : 2009-06-29Post Count : 1429 Merit : 63
Subject: Re: ZZP front exhaust log and crossover heat shield Mon Nov 30, 2020 8:37 pm
When I modified my '97 Riv and my dad's '04 GS we did PLOGS on both and same as the other guys, I have no doubt they opened up quite a bit of breathing space. We did a lot of other mods to both cars so it's hard to say the specific improvement but it could not have been a bad thing.
Do you mean the head shield for the throttle body? These M90's and M62's make so much heat I can't see that helping much, but they look neat
Cliff96 Enthusiast
Name : Cliff Joined : 2020-09-01Post Count : 133 Merit : 1
Subject: Re: ZZP front exhaust log and crossover heat shield Mon Nov 30, 2020 9:07 pm
Yes the throttle body heat shield but now I see the ceramic coated crossover pipe. I imagine that would really make a difference
9ty7rivi Enthusiast
Name : terrance Age : 37 Location : San Antonio, Texas Joined : 2015-04-17Post Count : 138 Merit : 2
Subject: Re: ZZP front exhaust log and crossover heat shield Wed Aug 11, 2021 9:29 am
I can tell you from experience that is no doubt the best bang for buck when it comes to a cheap mod that not only lets you "feel" the results, but also experience it in terms of cooler temps and happier engine. I right away noticed an increase in mid range power bands I mean VERY noticeable! ZZP did their homework extensively when it comes to the powerlog IMO. I would say hands down this upgrade is worth it in terms of an investment for you Riv.
9ty7rivi Enthusiast
Name : terrance Age : 37 Location : San Antonio, Texas Joined : 2015-04-17Post Count : 138 Merit : 2
Subject: Re: ZZP front exhaust log and crossover heat shield Wed Aug 11, 2021 9:36 am
I even reused my rusty burnt crossover pipe bolts! Haha.
Spacecowboy067 Enthusiast
Name : Luis Joined : 2021-06-12Post Count : 105 Merit : 4
Subject: Re: ZZP front exhaust log and crossover heat shield Mon Sep 20, 2021 3:29 am
Front PLOGS would help mitigate KR right? I noticed this thing knocks even with 91 octane... 93 is fine but can't find it anywhere. Been trying to free up restrictions via intake and exhaust to drop KR recently and would be dope if the log helps
Jack the R Master
Joined : 2007-01-16Post Count : 8070 Merit : 105
Subject: Re: ZZP front exhaust log and crossover heat shield Mon Sep 20, 2021 2:14 pm
Short answer yes, long answer - if your knock is caused by low octane gas, you better bump the octane of your gas up. You can buy octane booster, but it is not cheap, and it will eventually clog up your catalytic converter. Perhaps you can have the cat deleted where you're at and run an emulator in place of the cat 02 sensor. You still be stuck buying booster, practically doubling the price of gas, but you don't want to chip your pistons and have to replace the engine.
albertj Master
Name : Location : Finger Lakes of New York State Joined : 2007-05-31Post Count : 8685 Merit : 181
Subject: Re: ZZP front exhaust log and crossover heat shield Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:27 pm
Spacecowboy067 wrote:
Front PLOGS would help mitigate KR right? I noticed this thing knocks even with 91 octane... 93 is fine but can't find it anywhere. Been trying to free up restrictions via intake and exhaust to drop KR recently and would be dope if the log helps
I'd have to kow all your mods in order to comment. There may be something you can do about the knock to get 91 to work OK. Like maybe your MAF is off spec.
Spacecowboy067 Enthusiast
Name : Luis Joined : 2021-06-12Post Count : 105 Merit : 4
Subject: Re: ZZP front exhaust log and crossover heat shield Mon Sep 27, 2021 3:24 am
I've got a res delete and magnaflow exhaust, stock intake but k&n drop in filter, colder plugs, ZZP coils and wires, and a 180 stat so far. I don't think any of that drops much KR until I get it tuned and get a new downpipe. No idea how the MAF is performing other than it's not throwing codes. I might be able to read it in the torque app but I'm not too knowledgeable about the app yet
albertj Master
Name : Location : Finger Lakes of New York State Joined : 2007-05-31Post Count : 8685 Merit : 181
Subject: Re: ZZP front exhaust log and crossover heat shield Mon Sep 27, 2021 11:21 am
Spacecowboy067 wrote:
I've got a res delete and magnaflow exhaust, stock intake but k&n drop in filter, colder plugs, ZZP coils and wires, and a 180 stat so far. I don't think any of that drops much KR until I get it tuned and get a new downpipe. No idea how the MAF is performing other than it's not throwing codes. I might be able to read it in the torque app but I'm not too knowledgeable about the app yet
My thoughts (not in any order):
1) Ditch the K&N drop in, some owners put too much oil on them and they get oil on the MAF, which fools it if it does not kill it altogether. Put on a decent regular air filter and get a can of MAF cleaner and clean your MAF. You may need a security bit TORX driver to get the MAF out. You may have already killed the MAF. A new Hitachi is a good bet. However, I am currently running a MAF that I pulled from a '96 camaro in a junkyard. It had obviously been opened and re-sealed, not sure what was done to it, but it works great. My original MAF finally went off-spec from old age after ~20 years of use. It never threw a code. My KR was kinda high and I could not figure out another reason so I removed and cleaned the throttle body and replaced my original MAF with the junkyard unit. I think in the interim I cleaned it 3-4 times.
2) You'll require a tune to see any improvement with the colder plugs, hot coils and 180 Tstat.
3) if you have not ported your exhaust manifold, it would not be a waste of time for you to do so.
Spacecowboy067 Enthusiast
Name : Luis Joined : 2021-06-12Post Count : 105 Merit : 4
Subject: Re: ZZP front exhaust log and crossover heat shield Mon Sep 27, 2021 11:40 am
albertj wrote:
Spacecowboy067 wrote:
I've got a res delete and magnaflow exhaust, stock intake but k&n drop in filter, colder plugs, ZZP coils and wires, and a 180 stat so far. I don't think any of that drops much KR until I get it tuned and get a new downpipe. No idea how the MAF is performing other than it's not throwing codes. I might be able to read it in the torque app but I'm not too knowledgeable about the app yet
My thoughts (not in any order):
1) Ditch the K&N drop in, some owners put too much oil on them and they get oil on the MAF, which fools it if it does not kill it altogether. Put on a decent regular air filter and get a can of MAF cleaner and clean your MAF. You may need a security bit TORX driver to get the MAF out. You may have already killed the MAF. A new Hitachi is a good bet. However, I am currently running a MAF that I pulled from a '96 camaro in a junkyard. It had obviously been opened and re-sealed, not sure what was done to it, but it works great. My original MAF finally went off-spec from old age after ~20 years of use. It never threw a code. My KR was kinda high and I could not figure out another reason so I removed and cleaned the throttle body and replaced my original MAF with the junkyard unit. I think in the interim I cleaned it 3-4 times.
2) You'll require a tune to see any improvement with the colder plugs, hot coils and 180 Tstat.
3) if you have not ported your exhaust manifold, it would not be a waste of time for you to do so.
A real CAI will come eventually and I definitely need a tune, but I've been busy fixing the thing so it drives straight and reliably all summer. Lots of issues. Just last night I found a rubber fuel hose spraying gas
Porting the manifold might be last on my priority list but maybe someday. I'll probably bolt up ZZP front logs and leave the rear as is until I care enough to port em
Jack the R Master
Joined : 2007-01-16Post Count : 8070 Merit : 105
Subject: Re: ZZP front exhaust log and crossover heat shield Mon Sep 27, 2021 1:56 pm
IIRC you shouldn't switch to colder plugs until you go to a smaller supercharger pulley.
albertj Master
Name : Location : Finger Lakes of New York State Joined : 2007-05-31Post Count : 8685 Merit : 181
Subject: Re: ZZP front exhaust log and crossover heat shield Tue Sep 28, 2021 1:35 pm
Spacecowboy067 wrote:
albertj wrote:
Spacecowboy067 wrote:
I've got a res delete and magnaflow exhaust, stock intake but k&n drop in filter, colder plugs, ZZP coils and wires, and a 180 stat so far. I don't think any of that drops much KR until I get it tuned and get a new downpipe. No idea how the MAF is performing other than it's not throwing codes. I might be able to read it in the torque app but I'm not too knowledgeable about the app yet
My thoughts (not in any order):
1) Ditch the K&N drop in, some owners put too much oil on them and they get oil on the MAF, which fools it if it does not kill it altogether. Put on a decent regular air filter and get a can of MAF cleaner and clean your MAF. You may need a security bit TORX driver to get the MAF out. You may have already killed the MAF. A new Hitachi is a good bet. However, I am currently running a MAF that I pulled from a '96 camaro in a junkyard. It had obviously been opened and re-sealed, not sure what was done to it, but it works great. My original MAF finally went off-spec from old age after ~20 years of use. It never threw a code. My KR was kinda high and I could not figure out another reason so I removed and cleaned the throttle body and replaced my original MAF with the junkyard unit. I think in the interim I cleaned it 3-4 times.
2) You'll require a tune to see any improvement with the colder plugs, hot coils and 180 Tstat.
3) if you have not ported your exhaust manifold, it would not be a waste of time for you to do so.
A real CAI will come eventually and I definitely need a tune, but I've been busy fixing the thing so it drives straight and reliably all summer. Lots of issues. Just last night I found a rubber fuel hose spraying gas
Porting the manifold might be last on my priority list but maybe someday. I'll probably bolt up ZZP front logs and leave the rear as is until I care enough to port em
That's the point. To drive 'straight and reliably' you'll require a tune to see improvement with the colder plugs, hot coils and 180F t-stat. So, it just depends on what's important to you. If the mods are important then you have drivability issues until you can do the tune at lest. If drivability is more important to you then I think you will find that those mods are no more difficult to take out (until you can tune) than they were to put in. After you back out those mods, if you would like to see a performance gain then consider removing, porting and then reinstalling your manifold, or go to to a salvage yard (like I did), get an OE manifold off another BOP car and then port and install that. To port the manifold all you need is a Dremel moto tool with a grinding 'bullet' tip, a (preferably metal) manifold gasket, and a Sharpie. Using the gasket as a pattern When I heard about that I rolled my eyes. Then my manifold cracked from old age. I had to replace it anyway... so I ported it before the install.
Holy Smoke!
What I did not know at the time is that porting the front exhaust manifold is probably the biggest single thing you can do to gain HP on a stock 3800 or 3800SC motor. The trick is that doing the porting is not cost effective for GM but it *is* cost effective for you (especially compared to other mods), it's not difficult at all, and you'll notice up to 10 HP difference depending on how well you do it. Also see https://rivperformance.editboard.com/t9141-engine-head-port-and-polish.
Spacecowboy067 Enthusiast
Name : Luis Joined : 2021-06-12Post Count : 105 Merit : 4
Subject: Re: ZZP front exhaust log and crossover heat shield Tue Sep 28, 2021 1:41 pm
albertj wrote:
Spacecowboy067 wrote:
albertj wrote:
Spacecowboy067 wrote:
I've got a res delete and magnaflow exhaust, stock intake but k&n drop in filter, colder plugs, ZZP coils and wires, and a 180 stat so far. I don't think any of that drops much KR until I get it tuned and get a new downpipe. No idea how the MAF is performing other than it's not throwing codes. I might be able to read it in the torque app but I'm not too knowledgeable about the app yet
My thoughts (not in any order):
1) Ditch the K&N drop in, some owners put too much oil on them and they get oil on the MAF, which fools it if it does not kill it altogether. Put on a decent regular air filter and get a can of MAF cleaner and clean your MAF. You may need a security bit TORX driver to get the MAF out. You may have already killed the MAF. A new Hitachi is a good bet. However, I am currently running a MAF that I pulled from a '96 camaro in a junkyard. It had obviously been opened and re-sealed, not sure what was done to it, but it works great. My original MAF finally went off-spec from old age after ~20 years of use. It never threw a code. My KR was kinda high and I could not figure out another reason so I removed and cleaned the throttle body and replaced my original MAF with the junkyard unit. I think in the interim I cleaned it 3-4 times.
2) You'll require a tune to see any improvement with the colder plugs, hot coils and 180 Tstat.
3) if you have not ported your exhaust manifold, it would not be a waste of time for you to do so.
A real CAI will come eventually and I definitely need a tune, but I've been busy fixing the thing so it drives straight and reliably all summer. Lots of issues. Just last night I found a rubber fuel hose spraying gas
Porting the manifold might be last on my priority list but maybe someday. I'll probably bolt up ZZP front logs and leave the rear as is until I care enough to port em
That's the point. To drive 'straight and reliably' you'll require a tune to see improvement with the colder plugs, hot coils and 180F t-stat. So, it just depends on what's important to you. If the mods are important then you have drivability issues until you can do the tune at lest. If drivability is more important to you then I think you will find that those mods are no more difficult to take out (until you can tune) than they were to put in. After you back out those mods, if you would like to see a performance gain then consider removing, porting and then reinstalling your manifold, or go to to a salvage yard (like I did), get an OE manifold off another BOP car and then port and install that. To port the manifold all you need is a Dremel moto tool with a grinding 'bullet' tip, a (preferably metal) manifold gasket, and a Sharpie. Using the gasket as a pattern When I heard about that I rolled my eyes. Then my manifold cracked from old age. I had to replace it anyway... so I ported it before the install.
Holy Smoke!
What I did not know at the time is that porting the front exhaust manifold is probably the biggest single thing you can do to gain HP on a stock 3800 or 3800SC motor. The trick is that doing the porting is not cost effective for GM but it *is* cost effective for you (especially compared to other mods), it's not difficult at all, and you'll notice up to 10 HP difference depending on how well you do it. Also see https://rivperformance.editboard.com/t9141-engine-head-port-and-polish.
Well by reliable and straight I meant suspension wise. Been fixing all of that shit first cuz this thing was giving me the death wobble over 50mph but finally got most pieces fixed and replaced, so engine and tuning comes next
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Subject: Re: ZZP front exhaust log and crossover heat shield