"Chugging"

To check fuel pressure, connect FP Gauge to the rails, start the engine, and disconnect/plug the vacuum line at the FPR. I believe you are looking for 50PSI.

deekster_caddy wrote:

To check fuel pressure, connect FP Gauge to the rails, start the engine, and disconnect/plug the vacuum line at the FPR. I believe you are looking for 50PSI.

OK

I have coolant vanishing as well, I suspect a LIM leak. Did not pull plugs yet, that may reveal something. And I will check FP, I suspect it's fine though. IF it is not, then there's a Bosch FP from NAPA in my future - or a reman from Rock Auto (they are ~$35.- only, right now, a wholesaler is closing them out).

If the coolant is seeping into cylinders, you will see residue on the plug electrodes. Mine were leaking into #2 and #6. Have you upgraded to the aluminum gasket?

If you buy the pump and find your sending unit needs replaced, I still have my '98 OE unit in great shape (minus the pump), would make you a deal on it.

AA wrote:

If the coolant is seeping into cylinders, you will see residue on the plug electrodes. Mine were leaking into #2 and #6. Have you upgraded to the aluminum gasket?

If you buy the pump and find your sending unit needs replaced, I still have my '98 OE unit in great shape (minus the pump), would make you a deal on it.

Thanks and I'll see about that FP reading. Don't have the aluminum LIM gasket but in hindsight shoulda put it on when I R&R the supercharger a while back.

Albertj

Well... today while driving the "chuggle" turned into a grind, then a failure. Car is now at the transmission shop... more next week. I suspect the torque converter failed. Just a hunch, no data.

Ahh, I was thinking it might be the TC clutch. That's why I asked about the cruise control. I should have been more specific and asked if it happened when the TCC was locked. You might have been feeling the clutch slipping during lock-up.

If it does turn out to be the TCC, I had the same thing happen about 2 years ago. Wrote about it here, along with the "fix". So far, so good:

https://rivperformance.editboard.com/t8717-write-up-tuning-trick-for-failing-torque-converter-clutch-tcc-lock-up

Good luck with your issue. Hope it's not too bad.

Based on the metallic noises I heard this afternoon, I think I probably cooked the fluid, which cooked the TC, not to mention the TCC. This region has hilly highways, especially US 30 between Gettysburg and Lancaster, and US 22 between Pittsburgh and Altoona.

I think the issue is that the last time I had the transmission flushed and filled and the filter changed I asked to have Dex VI put in and I am pretty sure the tech (a nice guy but "Mr. Know-it-all") used Dex III and a bottle of Lucas. I already knew that one should Never, ever switch back from Dex VI to Dex III no matter what you add to the ATF soup so to speak. I did not want to spend the $$ to go to the GM dealer to have them switch that crap back out and, well, now I see that it's gonna cost. He said he used Dex VI but I saw the case of fluid - Wolf's Head Dex III. "Mr. Know-it-all" is not a chemist, and explaining to him that GM no longer even licenses Dex III (to give quality control) is nearly pointless, he will nod and smile and blow me off... For those of you reading this - the dirty little secret is that since GM no longer licenses Dex III, the manufacturers are free to claim that their fluids are Dex III compatible, and my understanding is that *none* of them work as well as they used to. No kiddin' you really need to consider switching to Dex VI (at some point, if you drive a lot) and stay there.

The car is back at the same transmission shop that rebuilt it over 100,000 miles ago - the owner (who IMHO is a *wizard*) will work on it on Monday. He says he's going to put a scanner on it and watch the pressures. I told him he was probably wasting his time ~ 1/4 mile or less and it will quit moving...

I suspect all that will be needed is replaced TC and TCC, a filter, and a fresh fill of Dex VI. It may be appropriate to consider replacing the frictions and steels while it's open. Don't know. But as long as Mr. Know-it-all stays **out** of it, no worries. Let the Wizard work.

While it is in there I might have him install a trans cooler.

As for your earlier post AA, I'd really rather keep the lock-up.

Sure, I'd keep my lock-up, too - if I heard metallic sounds. At this point, there's little reason to try saving the trans - a rebuild is inevitable. In my case, early detection allowed a low-cost intervention, shutting off the TCC function before any damage resulted, and enjoying another 50K miles of trouble free motoring, including an autocross and 2 track days. I really couldn't justify pulling the trans and loosing $2k on another rebuild. Still can't.

Based on your report, you're beyond that window of opportunity, and I hope your metallic sounds only mean a new TC and TCC is required. When my first trans failed at 150K, I heard similar sounds, which turned out to be sprag/gear teeth hitting the pan. Again, I wish that not to be the case here. Sorry I wasn't more help in identifying this before it got bad.

Not sure about DEX III being the cause. There's no way to prove you're not right, but also no way to prove DEX VI would have saved the trans. I used DEX VI exclusively after my rebuild, and the TCC failed just the same. I don't think the builders replaced the TCC material the first time, or used light duty parts. Not way to prove that either.

Sounds like the wizard will be telling us more about what happened as he attempts to get your transmission back in shape.

AA wrote:

Sure, I'd keep my lock-up, too - if I heard metallic sounds. At this point, there's little reason to try saving the trans - a rebuild is inevitable. In my case, early detection allowed a low-cost intervention, shutting off the TCC function before any damage resulted, and enjoying another 50K miles of trouble free motoring, including an autocross and 2 track days. I really couldn't justify pulling the trans and loosing $2k on another rebuild. Still can't.

Based on your report, you're beyond that window of opportunity, and I hope your metallic sounds only mean a new TC and TCC is required. When my first trans failed at 150K, I heard similar sounds, which turned out to be sprag/gear teeth hitting the pan. Again, I wish that not to be the case here. Sorry I wasn't more help in identifying this before it got bad.

Not sure about DEX III being the cause. There's no way to prove you're not right, but also no way to prove DEX VI would have saved the trans. I used DEX VI exclusively after my rebuild, and the TCC failed just the same. I don't think the builders replaced the TCC material the first time, or used light duty parts. Not way to prove that either.

Sounds like the wizard will be telling us more about what happened as he attempts to get your transmission back in shape.

Given the problem, hard to ID it before it got too bad. And yep I assume it's rebuild or replace. Metal sounds were very faint.

The Dex III vs Dex VI thing is personal preference I guess you could say, I liked how the trans ran with Dex VI and in my experience Dex III wears out faster. Don't think Dex III was the cause, I suspect the additive-whatever it was- shortened its useful life. I wonder if Mr. Know-it-all will man-up...? be that as it may, in any event this is not a job for the GM dealer...

I'll know more in a few days.

A few days have passed - trans TC was replaced but pressures are not what they should be so the valve body gets pulled Monday - if it can not be cleaned it gets replaced.

Shouldea/woulda/coulda gotta reman from WBS Performance. Sign.

Similar thing happened when mine was rebuilt. They tried cleaning valve body, but ended up replacing it with a new one. Everything was fine after they fixed - glad I didn't have to pay any more.

AA wrote:

Similar thing happened when mine was rebuilt. They tried cleaning valve body, but ended up replacing it with a new one. Everything was fine after they fixed - glad I didn't have to pay any more.

Thanks that helps me feel better, the re-builder is great though. They are putting on a reman valve body, I think including some modifications for the 4T65E - there was a (not very expensive) Superior kit to improve the valve body, see LINK. Remanufactured bodies are HERE.

I'm just peeved at the rebuilder's associate. I still have not figure out wither or how to deal with that.

So I got the car back, am now on a road trip - it's the weirdest thing -- the mechanic said that when he test drove the car (they put almost 100 miles on it) after it warms up the front brake pass side starts to drag. I said OK - well, I notice it too and I wonder if that's what actually caused the TC to grenade (a little dragging, engine can't figure out to apply TCC or not - it chuggles on and off - and burns up). It is easy to feel the drag with the "butt dyno.'

So I need to know (quick) two things:

One - do I just replace the calipers or is there probably some other problem or something else to check. For instance, the drag seems to happen with traction control on or off, but takes longer to set in with it off.

Two - do I need to have the dealer reflash the PCM just in case some bits got filpped? That is, is it possible that the real problem is the trac control has gone nuts, or the ABS motor is worn out and needs overhauled or replaced?

I would like to know (this is not so urgent though) what would cause brakes to drag when warm?

Bottom line is I am thinking I just need to replace the calipers. I am wondering if I should upgrade to the F body calipers as long as I am at it (will they fit in my 16: factory chrome rims? I kinda doubt it, didn't they fit the factory 12 spoke silver painted ones and not the 7 spoke chrome ones?) The cast aluminum F calipers probably get rid of heat better than the cast iron alloy OE single-pots.

So... umm.... help!

Albertj

Really don't understand how the brake issue has anything to do with your TCC issue, but you do need to fix it. Otherwise the pads and rotor will become damaged over time. No one likes to drive with uneven front brakes anyway.

There are two reasons that I know of for brakes dragging. It's either the flexible hose is blocked, or the caliper slide pins have frozen. I'd place a bet on the pins. If the grease in the caliper boots has dried up, the pin will rust, and the sliding action is compromised. With the wheel and caliper off, you should be able to glide the caliper on the braket by hand.

Inspect the pin boots. They could be cracked, letting grease escape. These boots are about $5 for a set of 4. Take out the pins and inspect. They should be smooth and straight, with a generous coating of grease. If they're not, you can replace the pins, or just sand them smooth if rusted and regrease.

In extreme cases the pins can actually freeze inside the caliper. Usually this can be fixed, but the caliper must be removed from the car and the pin removed in a bench vise. However, a sticking brake situation usually isn't the result of a frozen caliper pin.

I have a set of working OEM calipers and rotors, including hoses I'd sell if you're interested in swapping out both sides. I'd like to sell them as a complete set. They have about 120k miles on them.

The f-body mod will fit under the factory 16" wheels, and I've ran this set-up with good results, still do in the winter. I'd suggest the mod only if you want to improve braking from high speed. The fbody pad is larger, wears longer and more evenly, and offers better pad options. By "better" I mean compounds that will brake the car faster with less pedal effort, at the expense of some noise and dust. The fbody mod will let you safely decelerate from track level speeds (100mph+) repeatedly without much issue. You can't do that with the stockers, but they work just fine for most daily driving. If you are someone with rotor judder issues, it's an indicator that you may be a candidate for the fbody mod, which resolves this with the right pad for your driving style. If the OEM brakes have worked for you, I wouldn't worry about this mod too much.

One final note, the fbody mod requires SS flex lines, which changes your pedal feel to very firm. It takes some getting used to, as the soft gentle onset of braking force is replaced by an immediate and commanding, "stops right now" kind of feeling. I think it's this change in feedback that makes people who do this mod feel as if they're stopping a lot faster, when really the decel hasn't much changed - it's all in how the pedal is modulated.

Check the fbody thread for more info and further comments.

Hmmm - another 275 miles on the car and I think what's going on -

- I doubt the brakes are dragging but I'm going to pull wheels and check anyway

I think the pass side "dragging" is actually the Magnasteer - looks like when they put the transaxle in and checked the alignment they set the top plane of the steering wheel to look like it matched the top plane of the dash pad. This cocks the steering wheel to the left. If they then "straightened" the wheels (turning the tie rods same number of turns both sides) then although the car is aligned "straight" it's straight with the steering wheel cocked and the rack off center. Magnasteer programming with the Riv energizes the magnet at highway speeds to improve "on center" feel. But - you guessed it - that would then tend to pull the wheels toward the right at hiway speeds, to center the rack. AARRRRGH!

As for the brakes - I had broken down the calipers and put new pads on a couple weeks ago. Duralast Gold Ceramics. Not because of this incident but my overall impression after putting them on is I Do Not Like These Pads. I don't hate them, either. It's just that they spew more dust and give no better stopping than the Raybestos pads they replaced and it took quite a while to bed them in. They might be nice with new rotors but not as a replacement, I am thinking if I am not putting new rotors on for a maintenance pad change then I am putting on EBC redstuff or greenstuff.

Well - I have more highway driving coming up... so what I think I will do:

- don't think I have time to do the F body mod, parts not on hand and can't get them (where I live) on time. I am thinking a good way to do it is just buy the calipers from RockAuto and the SS lines (Goodridge #12241) from somewhere.
- I'll pull the front wheels to see if the calipers are seized on the pins. I seriously doubt it.
- it is not apparent at all to me why a flex hose would be blocked. However, wonders never cease and the current hoses have been in use for ~5-6 years, over 100,000 miles.

So I guess I need to know how to tell if I have a blocked flex hose.

Albertj

Update

I checked brakes. Driver side soft line was not fully flowing. The caliper pistons were sticking on both sides BAD... Installed a pair of lines from AutoValue and calipers from NAPA. Took another road trip--it was a dream to drive. Now have to deal with the alignment issues, which are minor.

Good deal. Thx for followup!

AA wrote:

Good deal. Thx for followup!

NAPA's calipers now are actually Cardone A-1 remans, they look nice, the only thing I'd change would be to use stainless pucks instead of the standard steel ones. They are powder coated black. And you know what - the core charge is over $70, the calipers net ~$41 each after core... they must really want the cores...

The hoses were a pain, NAPA did not have both; I ended up getting them at AutoValue and although they are good hoses I would have preferred brass fittings to the ones on the new hoses, looked like chromated steel or anodized aluminum I did not check... Changing them out was easy.

Only other thing - I broke my pressure gauge on my home-made bleeder... rats... need to get a new gauge.

They really want those cores because rebuilding is pretty simple, and low in cost. I think they can also be used on a variety of different models.

AA wrote:

They really want those cores because rebuilding is pretty simple, and low in cost. I think they can also be used on a variety of different models.

maybe so, not everyone wants those particular cores, though - look on the RockAuto site, some folks have a core charge of $10.00 only (they don't really want them, it'll cost more than that to ship).

I found replacement gauge for the bleeder on Ebay, which will help for next time.
...yay...

albertj wrote:

Update

I checked brakes. Driver side soft line was not fully flowing. The caliper pistons were sticking on both sides BAD... Installed a pair of lines from AutoValue and calipers from NAPA. Took another road trip--it was a dream to drive. Now have to deal with the alignment issues, which are minor.

How did you know the line wasn't flowing fully? Is it easy to determine when you have it disconnected from the caliper? Also how do you know if your caliper is slightly sticking? I am sure if it was bad enough you can tell easily, but is it something you can hear or is it something that you can know or feel pretty easily when they are sticking?

Don't know about in albertj's case, but a sticking caliper can cause the car to pull to one side.

98riv wrote:

albertj wrote:

Update

I checked brakes. Driver side soft line was not fully flowing. The caliper pistons were sticking on both sides BAD... Installed a pair of lines from AutoValue and calipers from NAPA. Took another road trip--it was a dream to drive. Now have to deal with the alignment issues, which are minor.

How did you know the line wasn't flowing fully? Is it easy to determine when you have it disconnected from the caliper? Also how do you know if your caliper is slightly sticking? I am sure if it was bad enough you can tell easily, but is it something you can hear or is it something that you can know or feel pretty easily when they are sticking?

Actually it's pretty easy once you take things apart.

- line not flowing: I cleaned off the ends of the line with alcohol then tried to blow through it. The driver side line did not blow thru as well as either the new lines or the removed passenger side line. By the way DON'T SUCK ON THE LINE, you don't want to aspirate brake fluid or even the mist/fumes.

- caliper slightly sticking: this is a tuffy as calipers are supposed to let the brakes drag a little, it gets the water off the rotor surfaces from road mist, rain, puddles. HOWEVER if you look in the service manual IIRC there is a spec for how much force on a spring balance you are to apply at normal angle to the edge of a rotor. Here is an example (albeit from a minivan manual I found on line - see pages 35A14-15, there is even a picture.

http://www.delica.ca/manuals/L-400%20Manuals%20&%20Plans/PWEE9410_35_BRAKES.pdf

Basically, if it takes more lbs than the spec then the calipers are (slightly or whatever) dragging. My calipers were just cruddy--so the caliper was building up pressure, the piston would cock and bind in the caliper and not let go. A HINT was that the pedal was real real firm after several brake applications, which coincided with the time it took the car to warm up. I do so much highway driving that the pressure would typically bleed down between my braking - I surmise that vibration loosened the piston - so I did not really notice until the tech pointed it out.

All that said, another thing you can do is put the car in neutral then get both front wheels off the ground. Rotate one wheel and if you can't turn the wheel reasonably easily you probably have too much drag on one or both sides; pull the wheels and whip out that spring balance and a piece of cord.

One little problem though and they don't say this in the manual: you have to rotate the caliper off the opposite wheel so the pads are off the rotor, on the fronts, in order to get the right #s in the test. Otherwise you are measuring drag for *both* calipers not just one and you won't know which one drags more. See, if one drags enough more than the other you'll get "mysterious wheel pull." And if you align it out then the alignment will be off as soon as the draggy caliper lets go or gets worse. Again I think there is a spec in the Riv service manual for this. IIRC it's less than 75 lbs. And a word again to the wise - it has to be the same both sides measured independently. I admit I did not do it this time with the new calipers, and with the old ones the drag was so obvious one did not need a spring balance to know there was a serious problem.

So that's how I knew the line was not flowing properly, and the calipers were sticking.

For the rest of you reading this, it's usually best to replace lines and calipers in pairs.

Albertj

albertj wrote:

98riv wrote:

albertj wrote:

Update

I checked brakes. Driver side soft line was not fully flowing. The caliper pistons were sticking on both sides BAD... Installed a pair of lines from AutoValue and calipers from NAPA. Took another road trip--it was a dream to drive. Now have to deal with the alignment issues, which are minor.

How did you know the line wasn't flowing fully? Is it easy to determine when you have it disconnected from the caliper? Also how do you know if your caliper is slightly sticking? I am sure if it was bad enough you can tell easily, but is it something you can hear or is it something that you can know or feel pretty easily when they are sticking?

Actually it's pretty easy once you take things apart.

- line not flowing: I cleaned off the ends of the line with alcohol then tried to blow through it. The driver side line did not blow thru as well as either the new lines or the removed passenger side line. By the way DON'T SUCK ON THE LINE, you don't want to aspirate brake fluid or even the mist/fumes.

- caliper slightly sticking: this is a tuffy as calipers are supposed to let the brakes drag a little, it gets the water off the rotor surfaces from road mist, rain, puddles. HOWEVER if you look in the service manual IIRC there is a spec for how much force on a spring balance you are to apply at normal angle to the edge of a rotor. Here is an example (albeit from a minivan manual I found on line - see pages 35A14-15, there is even a picture.

http://www.delica.ca/manuals/L-400%20Manuals%20&%20Plans/PWEE9410_35_BRAKES.pdf

Basically, if it takes more lbs than the spec then the calipers are (slightly or whatever) dragging. My calipers were just cruddy--so the caliper was building up pressure, the piston would cock and bind in the caliper and not let go. A HINT was that the pedal was real real firm after several brake applications, which coincided with the time it took the car to warm up. I do so much highway driving that the pressure would typically bleed down between my braking - I surmise that vibration loosened the piston - so I did not really notice until the tech pointed it out.

All that said, another thing you can do is put the car in neutral then get both front wheels off the ground. Rotate one wheel and if you can't turn the wheel reasonably easily you probably have too much drag on one or both sides; pull the wheels and whip out that spring balance and a piece of cord.

One little problem though and they don't say this in the manual: you have to rotate the caliper off the opposite wheel so the pads are off the rotor, on the fronts, in order to get the right #s in the test. Otherwise you are measuring drag for *both* calipers not just one and you won't know which one drags more. See, if one drags enough more than the other you'll get "mysterious wheel pull." And if you align it out then the alignment will be off as soon as the draggy caliper lets go or gets worse. Again I think there is a spec in the Riv service manual for this. IIRC it's less than 75 lbs. And a word again to the wise - it has to be the same both sides measured independently. I admit I did not do it this time with the new calipers, and with the old ones the drag was so obvious one did not need a spring balance to know there was a serious problem.

So that's how I knew the line was not flowing properly, and the calipers were sticking.

For the rest of you reading this, it's usually best to replace lines and calipers in pairs.

Albertj

Thanks for the information. I've been hearing a slight noise that sounds like the pads are touching the rotor when I drive by walls or something that reflects the noise back at slower speeds. It still probably does it at higher speeds, just can't hear it over the wind noise. No pulling to one side or anything, so I am not to worried about it. I now know what to look out for if it gets worse. Thanks!