| The 8th Gen Riviera Resource |
| | FAQ: Hesitation, Stutter(Studder), Shudder, Stumbling, on Acceleration/Load | |
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rk0ehn Enthusiast
Name : Christian Rolf Köhn Age : 34 Location : CD Juarez, MX Joined : 2011-08-11 Post Count : 148 Merit : 14
| Subject: Re: FAQ: Hesitation, Stutter(Studder), Shudder, Stumbling, on Acceleration/Load Fri Nov 04, 2011 4:25 pm | |
| OK, well last weekend (10/30/11) I cleaned the MAF and as far as I can tell it was pretty DIRTY, all black from where the air is coming and grey in the other side, so I sprayed the MAF with electronics cleaner on a very fresh morning and it worked pretty good; the MAF was looking clean, I reinstalled it and then tested the TPS which was responding pretty well, the dark blue wire is the one that sends the TP (throttle plate) position to the PCM; with the Ignition key in the "ON" position and the TP fully closed it read on my DVM (digital voltmeter) .51V and while I gradually opened the TP the volts were increasing as well, up to 4.07V with the TP fully open and I even tapped on the TPS to see if the volts reading changes, but nothing, it was a steady reading so I can discard the TPS. Then I started the Riv, and while in "P" I stepped on the gas pedal to accelerate the engine and it responded pretty well like normal again so it was OK during the week. But, yesterday I started the car in the morning (fresh BTW 55F) and it started to act up again sometimes now though, not all the time like it used to be; so... I haven't tested the fuel pressure regulator yet, but I'll try to do more tests this weekend
Last edited by rk0ehn on Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:29 pm; edited 1 time in total | |
| | | AA Administrator
Name : Aaron Age : 46 Location : C-bus, Ohio Joined : 2007-01-13 Post Count : 18448 Merit : 252
| Subject: Re: FAQ: Hesitation, Stutter(Studder), Shudder, Stumbling, on Acceleration/Load Fri Nov 04, 2011 6:47 pm | |
| Did you ever replace the ignition wires? _________________ '05 GTO 6.0L • 6-spd • 95k miles • 0-60: 4.8s • 16.9 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26'95 Celica GT 2.2L • 5-spd • 165k miles • 0-60: yes'98 SC Riviera • 281k miles • 298 HP/370 TQ • 0-60: 5.79s • ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 • 4087 lb • 20.1 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30 3.4" pulley • AL104 plugs • 180º t-stat • FWI w/K&N • 1.9:1 rockers • OR pushrods • LS6 valve springs • SLP headers • ZZP fuel rails KYB GR2 struts • MaxAir shocks • Addco sway bars • UMI bushings • GM STB • Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s • F-body calipers EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus • SS lines • Brembo slotted discs • DHP tuned • Aeroforce • Hidden Hitch^^^ SOLD ^^^ '70 Ninety-Eight Holiday Coupe 455cid • 116k miles^^^ SOLD ^^^ | |
| | | rk0ehn Enthusiast
Name : Christian Rolf Köhn Age : 34 Location : CD Juarez, MX Joined : 2011-08-11 Post Count : 148 Merit : 14
| Subject: Re: FAQ: Hesitation, Stutter(Studder), Shudder, Stumbling, on Acceleration/Load Fri Nov 04, 2011 7:11 pm | |
| Hmmm... not yet... no money.... until next month Do you have any type of diagnosis before I do a direct replacement?? I know they have to measure a certain resistance per foot, I think like 20K - 30K ohms or something like that? | |
| | | AA Administrator
Name : Aaron Age : 46 Location : C-bus, Ohio Joined : 2007-01-13 Post Count : 18448 Merit : 252
| Subject: Re: FAQ: Hesitation, Stutter(Studder), Shudder, Stumbling, on Acceleration/Load Fri Nov 04, 2011 7:25 pm | |
| It's even simpler than that. Try to repeat the hesitation so that you are aware of exactly when the condition occurs. Try to tell if the condition only happens under SC boost. Boost is independent of speed or RPM. You are in boost anytime the car is under load, as when climbing a hill, accelerating WOT, or even at cruising speed on the highway, when applying throttle in OD without downshifting. Another way to tell you are in boost, if your car is working properly, you should hear the blower whining a bit.
If you feel like the hesitation is indeed happening while under boost, you can do a test, but you must feel comfortable under the hood, and it takes some time and patience. What you do is detension the SC belt, slip off the belt, and carefully tie it off to the side, making sure it doesn't contact the crank pulley. You must slip the belt through the engine mount bracket partly to isolate it. Drive the car. If it doesn't shudder at WOT, it's almost certainly an ignition problem, and likely the wires. If it continues to shudder, it could still be the wires if they are very bad, or could be something entirely unrelated.
Good luck. Be careful if you try the belt trick, because if it's not tied off correctly, and you ruin the SC belt, you'll be driving with no supercharger until you decide to find out how difficult it is to replace! _________________ '05 GTO 6.0L • 6-spd • 95k miles • 0-60: 4.8s • 16.9 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26'95 Celica GT 2.2L • 5-spd • 165k miles • 0-60: yes'98 SC Riviera • 281k miles • 298 HP/370 TQ • 0-60: 5.79s • ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 • 4087 lb • 20.1 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30 3.4" pulley • AL104 plugs • 180º t-stat • FWI w/K&N • 1.9:1 rockers • OR pushrods • LS6 valve springs • SLP headers • ZZP fuel rails KYB GR2 struts • MaxAir shocks • Addco sway bars • UMI bushings • GM STB • Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s • F-body calipers EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus • SS lines • Brembo slotted discs • DHP tuned • Aeroforce • Hidden Hitch^^^ SOLD ^^^ '70 Ninety-Eight Holiday Coupe 455cid • 116k miles^^^ SOLD ^^^ | |
| | | rk0ehn Enthusiast
Name : Christian Rolf Köhn Age : 34 Location : CD Juarez, MX Joined : 2011-08-11 Post Count : 148 Merit : 14
| Subject: Re: FAQ: Hesitation, Stutter(Studder), Shudder, Stumbling, on Acceleration/Load Fri Nov 04, 2011 7:46 pm | |
| Thanks Aaron, Yeah it basically occurs when I apply throttle (I can see the BBV moving) and the engine is "Cold". Now I remember reading that somewhere in here About driving the car without the S/C, that's fine because the hesitation only happens on the first 1-2 min after start up. Thank you! | |
| | | albertj Master
Name : Location : Finger Lakes of New York State Joined : 2007-05-31 Post Count : 8577 Merit : 180
| Subject: Re: FAQ: Hesitation, Stutter(Studder), Shudder, Stumbling, on Acceleration/Load Fri Nov 04, 2011 8:22 pm | |
| - rk0ehn wrote:
- Hmmm... not yet... no money.... until next month
Do you have any type of diagnosis before I do a direct replacement?? I know they have to measure a certain resistance per foot, I think like 20K - 30K ohms or something like that? About the wires - if the wires are original by now they are suspect. If you have Magnecor or other "wirewound" or "spiral" wires they will not show much resistance on a meter. What brand wires do you have? About the MAF - if the car ran well for a week after cleaning the MAF you ought to look at it again. Maybe you have some other problem that is dirtying your MAF. Albertj | |
| | | rk0ehn Enthusiast
Name : Christian Rolf Köhn Age : 34 Location : CD Juarez, MX Joined : 2011-08-11 Post Count : 148 Merit : 14
| Subject: Re: FAQ: Hesitation, Stutter(Studder), Shudder, Stumbling, on Acceleration/Load Fri Nov 04, 2011 8:41 pm | |
| - albertj wrote:
- About the MAF - if the car ran well for a week after cleaning the MAF you ought to look at it again. Maybe you have some other problem that is dirtying your MAF
Yes this is what I thought as well I'll take a look at it About the wire, I'm not sure what brand they are looks to me OEM (stock) BUT, I can see that the wire number 5 was previously replaced, and the coil with cylinder's number 3-6 was replaced. | |
| | | albertj Master
Name : Location : Finger Lakes of New York State Joined : 2007-05-31 Post Count : 8577 Merit : 180
| Subject: Re: FAQ: Hesitation, Stutter(Studder), Shudder, Stumbling, on Acceleration/Load Sat Nov 05, 2011 12:55 pm | |
| - rk0ehn wrote:
- albertj wrote:
- About the MAF - if the car ran well for a week after cleaning the MAF you ought to look at it again. Maybe you have some other problem that is dirtying your MAF
Yes this is what I thought as well I'll take a look at it
About the wire, I'm not sure what brand they are looks to me OEM (stock) BUT, I can see that the wire number 5 was previously replaced, and the coil with cylinder's number 3-6 was replaced. In my experience what happens is a wire comes loose on a plug at the engine, or has a terminal fail (the OE terminals are adequate but not the best) then when loose causes the coil to fail. The other problem is there are two coils that will fit, but only one coil is appropriate for the supercharged engine. If your coils are mixed and performing at the margins of the specifications you will get erratic ignition. what you can do: - get a fresh replacement set of OE wires. I think RockAuto.com will ship to you, check out their site. The Delphi or ACDelco wires are decent and will last you several years. if you want better go to http//www.magnecor.com and get a set of Magnecor wires, or to Summit Racing and get Taylor "Spiro-Pro" wires. I do not know if the Taylors will last as long as the Magnecors. - get a complete set of coils for your car. A set of the coils intended for the supercharged cars will work whether car is supercharged or not. But set should not mix the SC and nonSC coils. You have a '96 series II. Cheapest way to do this new might be the OEM 5192 coils at about US$19.00 only each. They are copper in epoxy, should be fine. Also someone reading this may have a good set of coils taken off a SC car or can get to a junkyard - a set taken off an SC car would be 100% fine to use. Finally - and this is just a hunch - check the wire harness connector at the firewall for breaks in the wires near where the terminals are crimped onto each wire, and same at the ignition module (the flat piece under the coils). Albertj | |
| | | AA Administrator
Name : Aaron Age : 46 Location : C-bus, Ohio Joined : 2007-01-13 Post Count : 18448 Merit : 252
| Subject: Re: FAQ: Hesitation, Stutter(Studder), Shudder, Stumbling, on Acceleration/Load Sat Nov 05, 2011 3:29 pm | |
| - Quote :
- I can see that the wire number 5 was previously replaced
Just my opinion, but this is a big clue the other wires should be replaced as well! _________________ '05 GTO 6.0L • 6-spd • 95k miles • 0-60: 4.8s • 16.9 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26'95 Celica GT 2.2L • 5-spd • 165k miles • 0-60: yes'98 SC Riviera • 281k miles • 298 HP/370 TQ • 0-60: 5.79s • ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 • 4087 lb • 20.1 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30 3.4" pulley • AL104 plugs • 180º t-stat • FWI w/K&N • 1.9:1 rockers • OR pushrods • LS6 valve springs • SLP headers • ZZP fuel rails KYB GR2 struts • MaxAir shocks • Addco sway bars • UMI bushings • GM STB • Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s • F-body calipers EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus • SS lines • Brembo slotted discs • DHP tuned • Aeroforce • Hidden Hitch^^^ SOLD ^^^ '70 Ninety-Eight Holiday Coupe 455cid • 116k miles^^^ SOLD ^^^ | |
| | | rk0ehn Enthusiast
Name : Christian Rolf Köhn Age : 34 Location : CD Juarez, MX Joined : 2011-08-11 Post Count : 148 Merit : 14
| Subject: Re: FAQ: Hesitation, Stutter(Studder), Shudder, Stumbling, on Acceleration/Load Sat Nov 05, 2011 3:45 pm | |
| Sure, as every car I've owned before, I'll make a list of all the stuff I need to replace on this car Like gaskets, Spark plugs & Wires, fluids, etc. I'm making my list right now | |
| | | deekster_caddy Master
Name : Derek Age : 52 Location : Reading, MA Joined : 2007-01-31 Post Count : 7717 Merit : 109
| Subject: Re: FAQ: Hesitation, Stutter(Studder), Shudder, Stumbling, on Acceleration/Load Sat Nov 05, 2011 9:36 pm | |
| Do you have a reusable/oiled air filter? (K&N style) If so make sure the filter is not over-oiled. This is a common error which can dirty the MAF wire quickly. | |
| | | rk0ehn Enthusiast
Name : Christian Rolf Köhn Age : 34 Location : CD Juarez, MX Joined : 2011-08-11 Post Count : 148 Merit : 14
| | | | albertj Master
Name : Location : Finger Lakes of New York State Joined : 2007-05-31 Post Count : 8577 Merit : 180
| | | | rk0ehn Enthusiast
Name : Christian Rolf Köhn Age : 34 Location : CD Juarez, MX Joined : 2011-08-11 Post Count : 148 Merit : 14
| Subject: Re: FAQ: Hesitation, Stutter(Studder), Shudder, Stumbling, on Acceleration/Load Sat Nov 05, 2011 10:52 pm | |
| Sorry, I meant the MAF got very dirty because of previous Air Filter that was clogged. The MAF screen would caught that anyway, wouldn't it? - albertj wrote:
- The abrasion will wear out the engine very quickly.
You mean inside the combustion chamber? | |
| | | albertj Master
Name : Location : Finger Lakes of New York State Joined : 2007-05-31 Post Count : 8577 Merit : 180
| Subject: Re: FAQ: Hesitation, Stutter(Studder), Shudder, Stumbling, on Acceleration/Load Sun Nov 06, 2011 11:56 pm | |
| - rk0ehn wrote:
- Sorry, I meant the MAF got very dirty because of previous Air Filter that was clogged. The MAF screen would caught that anyway, wouldn't it?
- albertj wrote:
- The abrasion will wear out the engine very quickly.
You mean inside the combustion chamber? No, the MAF screen will not stop airborne dirt. Any dirt in the airflow by the time it reaches the MAF screen will stay airborne into the combustion chamber and accumulate there due to the oil film on the cylinder walls. This is a problem for you. Albertj | |
| | | rk0ehn Enthusiast
Name : Christian Rolf Köhn Age : 34 Location : CD Juarez, MX Joined : 2011-08-11 Post Count : 148 Merit : 14
| Subject: Re: FAQ: Hesitation, Stutter(Studder), Shudder, Stumbling, on Acceleration/Load Wed Nov 09, 2011 4:30 pm | |
| - AA wrote:
- If you feel like the hesitation is indeed happening while under boost, you can do a test, but you must feel comfortable under the hood, and it takes some time and patience. What you do is detension the SC belt, slip off the belt, and carefully tie it off to the side, making sure it doesn't contact the crank pulley. You must slip the belt through the engine mount bracket partly to isolate it. Drive the car. If it doesn't shudder at WOT, it's almost certainly an ignition problem, and likely the wires. If it continues to shudder, it could still be the wires if they are very bad, or could be something entirely unrelated.
This past weekend I tried what you told me to do, I took off the S/C belt and started the engine for the first time in the day (COLD) and well, it acted up the same way and this morning at 52F I started the car and while I was opening the gate the engine just stalled! restarted and with the RPM way to high up to 1800 and then stall again did this 3 times and then I just put in in reverse and drive the car like that SO, last time I cleaned the TB from the outside, guess I'll have to remove the TB and clean it throughly as well as the IAC (Idle Air Control) valve, but do I need a new TB gasket? because if that's the case I can't do it right now UNTIL I get some money, this is driving me crazy | |
| | | deekster_caddy Master
Name : Derek Age : 52 Location : Reading, MA Joined : 2007-01-31 Post Count : 7717 Merit : 109
| Subject: Re: FAQ: Hesitation, Stutter(Studder), Shudder, Stumbling, on Acceleration/Load Wed Nov 09, 2011 9:27 pm | |
| Have you tested for vacuum leaks yet? | |
| | | rk0ehn Enthusiast
Name : Christian Rolf Köhn Age : 34 Location : CD Juarez, MX Joined : 2011-08-11 Post Count : 148 Merit : 14
| Subject: Re: FAQ: Hesitation, Stutter(Studder), Shudder, Stumbling, on Acceleration/Load Wed Nov 09, 2011 10:08 pm | |
| Visually Wouldn't a mayor leak cause an engine to stall all the time? this only happens when cold. I dunno but I think it is the ECT sensor. | |
| | | rk0ehn Enthusiast
Name : Christian Rolf Köhn Age : 34 Location : CD Juarez, MX Joined : 2011-08-11 Post Count : 148 Merit : 14
| Subject: Re: FAQ: Hesitation, Stutter(Studder), Shudder, Stumbling, on Acceleration/Load Sat Nov 12, 2011 1:45 pm | |
| I think I found the culprit When I first purchased the Riviera the BBV was simply attached with some zip ties, I knew I had to replace that but as well I knew it will be hard to find it, so eventually a month or so ago the zip ties broke (heat and age) and the BBV just popped out like that, so what I did I melted the plastic and "welded" it together. SO 2 days ago that thing (BBV) popped out again with the entire spring out. So my guess was that that's where the vacuum leak was at and it just eventually broke. What I did is that I used epoxy to "glue" that thing up again and the problem is now gone.... for the past 2 days I've started the engine and no problems whatsoever, it accelerates again well with good response. I want to thank you guys for all your inputs, comments and recommendations, I'll absolutely bring the car in good shape with the maintenance, because I do not know how well was the car previously maintained and I better want to replace what I know that with 178K miles might fail like gasket, O2 sensors, suspension and all of that, accomplished with the help of this website Thank you! | |
| | | albertj Master
Name : Location : Finger Lakes of New York State Joined : 2007-05-31 Post Count : 8577 Merit : 180
| Subject: Re: FAQ: Hesitation, Stutter(Studder), Shudder, Stumbling, on Acceleration/Load Sun Nov 13, 2011 7:15 pm | |
| - rk0ehn wrote:
- I think I found the culprit
When I first purchased the Riviera the BBV was simply attached with some zip ties, I knew I had to replace that but as well I knew it will be hard to find it, so eventually a month or so ago the zip ties broke (heat and age) and the BBV just popped out like that, so what I did I melted the plastic and "welded" it together. SO 2 days ago that thing (BBV) popped out again with the entire spring out.
So my guess was that that's where the vacuum leak was at and it just eventually broke. What I did is that I used epoxy to "glue" that thing up again and the problem is now gone.... for the past 2 days I've started the engine and no problems whatsoever, it accelerates again well with good response.
I want to thank you guys for all your inputs, comments and recommendations, I'll absolutely bring the car in good shape with the maintenance, because I do not know how well was the car previously maintained and I better want to replace what I know that with 178K miles might fail like gasket, O2 sensors, suspension and all of that, accomplished with the help of this website
Thank you! Do the "Need" stuff first. If you don't have a check engine light on you don't need oxygen sensors at the moment although to replace them might improve your car's efficiency. You might want to look into which replacement options you have for shocks and struts. If Bilstein turns out to be an option you should post details. If you are running with the orange DexCool coolant in the radiator consider changing it. If after a short drive the wheel centers are too hot to touch you might need replacment of that wheel's bearing. If you do, get an SKF or Timken.
Last edited by albertj on Tue Nov 15, 2011 4:47 pm; edited 1 time in total | |
| | | rk0ehn Enthusiast
Name : Christian Rolf Köhn Age : 34 Location : CD Juarez, MX Joined : 2011-08-11 Post Count : 148 Merit : 14
| Subject: Re: FAQ: Hesitation, Stutter(Studder), Shudder, Stumbling, on Acceleration/Load Tue Nov 15, 2011 4:41 pm | |
| Thanks for the suggestions Albert, I'll replace the O2 sensors because of the millage in the car and I think I'm getting Low MPG so I'll replace the upstream O2 sensor, that way I'll know it's new btw rockauto sells them for $30+ plus shipping so that's fine with me. - albertj wrote:
- Since you are in Europe you might want to look into which replacement options you have for shocks and struts. If Bilstein turns out to be an option you should post details.
Sorry Albert if my location causes some "confusion"; I'm actually located at C.D. Juárez, Chihuahua, Mexico. right in the border of EL Paso, TX USA. Although I was born in Germany! I'll actually upgrade my front struts with the KYB GR-2 from rockauto and the strut mounts all for $193.57 + shipping I don't have DEX-COOL which is good in my opinion, but the cooling system looks very corroded and only water in it I will flush it properly and refill with the correct GREEN coolant mixture. | |
| | | adri Amateur
Name : adri(95S1SC) Location : Athens, OH Joined : 2011-10-26 Post Count : 37 Merit : 1
| Subject: Re: FAQ: Hesitation, Stutter(Studder), Shudder, Stumbling, on Acceleration/Load Mon Nov 21, 2011 4:02 pm | |
| my car has a similar problem. but mine happens when the car warms up. it boggs a little. but i think my problem is my plug wires wor even my throttle body, that may be dirty. u said that uve cleaned the throttle body so my next assumption would be the plug wires. it could be quite a few things but keep looking at them one by one and ull figure it . | |
| | | dpmeeks Rookie
Name : Phil Joined : 2012-01-20 Post Count : 16 Merit : 1
| Subject: engine hesitation Thu Feb 16, 2012 3:40 am | |
| I decided to do a tune up on the wifes rivi a couple weeks ago ( plugs and wires ) and it was running fine as far as i knew. Well, yesterday we took it out on the highway and when i get up to about 60mph and go about half throttle im getting a hesitation where the car will buck, then it goes.
Before the tune up it never did this, you could mash to the floor and it would take off. It had ac delco iridium plugs and i put in autolite plats gapped i think at .057 is that correct ?? The car idles very smoothly, issue only comes up when you get on it at higher speeds.
I bought autozone plug wires and they didnt have 104s so i got autolite plat (AP606's) | |
| | | AA Administrator
Name : Aaron Age : 46 Location : C-bus, Ohio Joined : 2007-01-13 Post Count : 18448 Merit : 252
| Subject: Re: FAQ: Hesitation, Stutter(Studder), Shudder, Stumbling, on Acceleration/Load Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:59 am | |
| If you still have the old wires, you could try changing them back. The OEM design is superior to many aftermarket versions. If this cures the issue, try ordering a fresh set of AC Delco/Delphi wires.
Also it possible you damaged a plug during installation. Inspect the insulators carefully for cracks. Your gap setting is right. Your plug is a little warm for supercharged application, but I wouldn't think it's significant enough to cause your misfire. Good luck. _________________ '05 GTO 6.0L • 6-spd • 95k miles • 0-60: 4.8s • 16.9 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26'95 Celica GT 2.2L • 5-spd • 165k miles • 0-60: yes'98 SC Riviera • 281k miles • 298 HP/370 TQ • 0-60: 5.79s • ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 • 4087 lb • 20.1 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30 3.4" pulley • AL104 plugs • 180º t-stat • FWI w/K&N • 1.9:1 rockers • OR pushrods • LS6 valve springs • SLP headers • ZZP fuel rails KYB GR2 struts • MaxAir shocks • Addco sway bars • UMI bushings • GM STB • Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s • F-body calipers EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus • SS lines • Brembo slotted discs • DHP tuned • Aeroforce • Hidden Hitch^^^ SOLD ^^^ '70 Ninety-Eight Holiday Coupe 455cid • 116k miles^^^ SOLD ^^^ | |
| | | dpmeeks Rookie
Name : Phil Joined : 2012-01-20 Post Count : 16 Merit : 1
| Subject: Re: FAQ: Hesitation, Stutter(Studder), Shudder, Stumbling, on Acceleration/Load Thu Feb 16, 2012 5:25 am | |
| I tossed the old wires . I guess i could try getting the delco wires and going from there. I rechecked the firing order on the wires and its correct. Its really odd, the car idles soooo smooth, but, it hesitates badly at higher rpms and under a load. | |
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