*one* of my back-burner projects

Rickw wrote:

Karma wrote:

Its for the wife. .. I want her rotors from her gen3... to eventually swap into the ford supercoupe supercharger... great thing is the better rotors swap right over...

How can you effectively measure the ID of the bores and then measure the clearance of the rotor to bore in order to be safe.
And what should the safe gap be.?
The last you'd want is to have the rotors stretch while hot and score the bores.
Which grows more under normal operation the case or the rotors.?

Often in high mileage superchargers you will find the bores scored anyway. Especially if they are over spun. The needle bearing start to give way and the rotors flutter. This effect is accented by smaller pulleys which cause the airflow to actually start to move the rotors in the pack length-ways, making the problem worse.

The rotors grow more than the case, this is in the design of rotors that are post epoxy coating. (so > 95 years). The epoxy coating is just to tighten tolerances and wears in to the bore in the breaking in period at Eaton just after assembly. The 96-97 rotors saw improvements that is a strange mix of things and expands slightly when heated to fill the bore. 98+ saw the introduction of an improved teflon and magic stuff to the rotor coating as well as better adhesion to the rotors themselves. The gen 5 rotors are a fun strange coating that is designed to "wear into" itself and keep expanding for the ultimate long life and efficiency. You can hear the coating on the rotors expand by listening to the difference when starting the car up in the winter vs. when it warms up. At first you can hear the cold rotors in that "vacuum cleaner" sound at first start up. Once they warm up, the coating expands, they center better, and you don't hear the same grinding noise.

.. and I know the rotors will fit in my bore for the ford blower because the SC crowd would often change to the more efficient teflon coated rotors from *our* blowers. They would see the equivalent results of a .2"-.3" pulley drop just by swapping rotors, with the benefit of no extra HP required to turn and same heat output.

.. good grief... I'm realizing just how much info I've picked up over the past few years in my fanatic reading of supercharger info by answering these questions!

Thanks Karma, you saved me a bunch of time trying to find these answers and I knew nothing about the Ford Blower crowd.
So I was at a disadvantage to start with.

With my current Gen 3 and 108,000 miles I started hearing the noise you speak of about 4 or 5 months ago during the first minute or two of running time and then it goes away. I assumed it was the tolerance between rotor and housing and the noise dissipates when the rotors grow. But I wasn't quite sure because it doesn't take that long for the noise to go away. So it is a bit baffling, because I didn't think the rotors would actually grow that quickly.
Once I put the GenV on I'll be able to do a tear down on the Gen 3 and have a good look.

Another question you may have knowledge on is the use of water/meth (windshield washer fluid) on these blowers. I've heard conflicting reports and no pictures to back it up. But there is talk of the water meth removing the coating from the rotors.
After reading what you said about the different coatings depending on years and generation of supercharger I'm wondering if you know of the affect the fluid has on the various coatings used.
I'm talking about using one of the systems that is controlled by MAF frequency and sprayed in an atomized mist. Not just poured into the intake in front of the TB.
In your research have you come across any info regarding the use of water meth.
It is something I would like to try to cool the intake temps but not at the detriment of the rotors.

Ah, I didn't notice the question above way back. Sorry Rick...

For meth and rotor wear, what I've learned is this:
-Uncoated is obviously fine
-anything from 93-95 is epoxy(and stuff) coated and WILL come off with meth.
-96 was a transition year, and while it shares similar coating to the 97+ the prep work was not done as well and sometimes the rotors would peel(even without meth)
-97+ the coating was very slightly modified and the rotor prep was much better done. Many have sprayed meth with success with these rotors.
-Gen V rotors are supposed to have no problems with meth, but most people still haven't due to the cost of the blower and the increasing difficulty in finding them.




And to my original reason for posting in this thread:
I've been thinking lately about how I'm going to do the custom m90 swap, and I'm leaning more towards a complete re-make of the LIM so the blower is recessed more as well as maybe going A2A inter-cooling.
But thats besides the point; I was looking at manifold designs and came across this:
http://v8tvshow.com/forum/index.php/topic,2016.msg3488.html

Gave me a "fabrication-gasam". I could die happy if I could make welds like that.

whoa! thats incredible work!

Whoa is right. I don't even wanna know the price tag

Karma, I know you have a lot of work into your '95, but have you considered just doing an L67 engine/trans swap? It'd probably be cheaper and less time than fabbin' up a manifold like that!

Abaddon wrote:

Karma, I know you have a lot of work into your '95, but have you considered just doing an L67 engine/trans swap? It'd probably be cheaper and less time than fabbin' up a manifold like that!

(but I have an l67... Technically the 95sc IS an l67 )

Ha-ha, well I already have a series two drain on my wallet in the form of the wife's 98 riv. The stuff I'm doing on my series one is for the challenge and the fun. For me, the fabbing is cheap cause its just my own time, and I just plain enjoy designing/engineering/machining. I guess it becomes a passion when you grow up with a prototyping machine shop at your disposal and have been making things in it since age 8. Also, I have other reasons for working with the series one, one of which is the taller deck height which goes a long way to making a more reliable stroker. I series two *can* be stroked, but a series one would be much more stout for crazy things.

Karma wrote:

Ah, I didn't notice the question above way back. Sorry Rick...

For meth and rotor wear, what I've learned is this:
-Uncoated is obviously fine
-anything from 93-95 is epoxy(and stuff) coated and WILL come off with meth.
-96 was a transition year, and while it shares similar coating to the 97+ the prep work was not done as well and sometimes the rotors would peel(even without meth)
-97+ the coating was very slightly modified and the rotor prep was much better done. Many have sprayed meth with success with these rotors.
-Gen V rotors are supposed to have no problems with meth, but most people still haven't due to the cost of the blower and the increasing difficulty in finding them.

I sold my Gen V and plan on staying with the Gen 3 for now. So I might get and install a water meth system yet. I want to put a temp sensor in the LIM and be able to read it on the Aeroforce gage and measure the difference from non- W/M and with W/M.
Just curious. And if by chance the coating starts to get hammered by the spray then I'll just get another S/C or disassemble this one, rebuild it and remove the coating completely.
I don't know for sure, I'm just thinking out loud for know.

Thanks for the reply and the knowledge you gained from researching the coatings.

Rick

Karma wrote:

Ha-ha, well I already have a series two drain on my wallet in the form of the wife's 98 riv. The stuff I'm doing on my series one is for the challenge and the fun. For me, the fabbing is cheap cause its just my own time, and I just plain enjoy designing/engineering/machining. I guess it becomes a passion when you grow up with a prototyping machine shop at your disposal and have been making things in it since age 8. Also, I have other reasons for working with the series one, one of which is the taller deck height which goes a long way to making a more reliable stroker. I series two *can* be stroked, but a series one would be much more stout for crazy things.

I envy you sir

You're right, it's more fun to fab stuff up. That way what you do have is 1 of a kind

So I've been doing lots of thinking about this project lately. I've been flip-flopping between going for an air-to-air inter-cooler, or water-to-air, and I think just due to intake ducting ease, I'll go W2A. This gives me more flexibility with the intake manifold design to get the correct shape and length of runners to fit under the hood with the new supercharger.

Currently I'm leaning towards milling out a LIM so I can use the stock coolant passages. (instead of custom making an entire LIM) The plan would be to TIG some flanges onto the walls of a series one "walled" LIM to direct the runners up from the heads. (they would be milled back as far as I can to make room) . Or maybe I'll just mill the whole thing out and re-do the injector ports. Then I can get a better spray angle at the back of the valve.

You can see the walls in the LIM on the sides of the intake runners in this pic:



The SC would actually sit at the bottom of the original LIM plenum to lower its height since the Ford SC "blows up". The runners would wrap up around the SC, and into the inter-cooler cores. I'm planning on one core for each bank of 3 runners similar to one of the pics on the first page of this thread. So instead of the blower firing its charge straight into one end of the IC core like on most series two setups, it will hit two 1/4 moon shapes and direct to the sides, through the IC core, and straight into the runners. Its hard to explain, but whenever I finish my 3d models I'll put up pics. This should remove most of the flow turbulence that occurs in traditional setups where the air must exit the output of the SC, straighten out for the IC core, and then make a 90 degree turn right on the fin edge to head in the direction of the runners.


I've also been pouring over websites and forums that discuss intake plenum design, resonance tuning, runner length and RPM band tuning, air dynamics flow, etc. Lots of interesting stuff. Running the calculations for runner length, and keeping the runner area of 1.71 square inches(stock head runner size for me), I tried all the different schools of thought and different formulas and found some interesting things. For my engine, averaging the results of the different formulas I end up with runner lengths that run in the ball park of 14-15" or 19-22" from the back of the valve to plenum. (granted most of this goes out the window with FI but the main goal for me is to maintain velocity and inertia between valve pulses to overcome the disadvantage of having smaller valves that you s2 guys) *If* i can fit it, I would prefer to work out 22" runners, as it gives me the BEST pulse strength across RPM range in the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th harmonic.

An easy online calculator gave me this for 22 inches:
Input length is 22 inches
For 2nd harmonic, RPM range is from 5340 to 6480 with a pulse strength of 10 percent
For 3rd harmonic, RPM range is from 4012 to 4585 with a pulse strength of 7 percent
For 4th harmonic, RPM range is from 3128 to 3498 with a pulse strength of 4 percent

And it gets further supported by other calculations that takes into account engine displacement, cam timing, valve opening events, runner area, and targeted peak toque RPM.

When I put all the methods together I found that the accepted rule of thumb of having "total runner area = the amount of air one cylinder displaces" to be very very close even when using the really complicated formulas that takes more variables.

Others who have studied intake manifold design have also found that auto manufacturers DO do the same math, but things end up changing as they work out how to squish it all into the engine bay in a cost effective manner. My challenge will be similar to see if I can fit the objectives of my design(22" runners, IC cores, smooth flow) under the hood.



And for everyone who is lost, thats OK too. Above is just the rambling result of my learnings. To help wrap you head around how "weird" air actually is in an intake plenum (since its not constant flow, but gets interrupted by valves closing) have a look at the vid below:


Video is in very slow time. RED is higher velocity. When you see a RED stream, visualize that that valve is opened, and all the others are closed. Notice how the velocity in an opened valve runner is affecting the velocity of the runners to either side. They also backflow slightly when their own valve slams shut, causing turbulence in the main plenum. They all affect each other, and the lengths plays a huge role in sorting out the air-streams, even with FI.


Anyway... food for thought.

Read what you are thinking here and haven't done the research but understand the theories. Just to make sure though, those calculations take into account the pressurized intake?

Well, this project has changed slightly. Might as well upgrade from the m90 whilst I am at it.



Who wants to play guess the donor car?

Jaguar

Does eaton make these superchargers as well? what are you going to do with your ford m90?

Yup robo got it. 1999 Jaguar XKR. M112 supercharger and two honking huge intercoolers. And yes, its an Eaton blower.

The ford m90 can go on something else. I'm sure I'll find something that "needs" a supercharger on it.

The main reason I got it is that it's intercooler tank configuration is pretty much exactly what I was going to fabricate. I wouldn't have been able to get the raw IC cores for the price of everything here. Plus its already got the water tanks and such ready to go. Might as well not reinvent the wheel.

Since I was resigned to custom making a LIM, or heavily modifying one so the SC is more recessed, Its not much different to make it so the m112 fits as opposed to the m90. This one is going to be close though. I might have to cowl it if it sticks up too high. Also the TB is rotated and points straight up, which I think I'm going to have integrate with a filter and hood exit/scoop. No sense in trying to bring it back to the CAI. I might also relocate the alternator to the air conditioner compressor spot. Partly for room up top, and partly to make the blower and tanks the focus when looking at the engine. The blower will get new bearings, coupler, and the normal porting. And its going to need a pretty big pulley at first. I did some mocking up while doing some engine work last weekend and its looking really promising. Once the car is together, this might just become a front burner project.

Changed 'slightly', ha-haha. That is quite the bad-ass set-up, Andrew. I like how well it seems to fit on top of the engine. "V8" is a nice touch, lol. 90% of people would probably assume it is, without counting plug wires or exhaust outlets.

Am I seeing it right? The ICs are staged before the blower compresses the air charge?

Wow..Just Wow!

AA wrote:

Changed 'slightly', ha-haha. That is quite the bad-ass set-up, Andrew. I like how well it seems to fit on top of the engine. "V8" is a nice touch, lol. 90% of people would probably assume it is, without counting plug wires or exhaust outlets.

Am I seeing it right? The ICs are staged before the blower compresses the air charge?

The V8 will get ground off when I polish everything. The blower fires "up", then the air charge is split into the two IC cores, and then down into the intake runners. Since there are 4 runners on each side and they are sized for a 4 liter engine(4 liters divided by 8 runners = smaller area each runner than I need), I'll probably run them into a small common plenum on each side, and then into 6 runners for the engine. Its gonna be fun!

That's freakin' awesome. I should have known they'd have tried something ingenious like that. Can we call this the "Gen VI" blower? Or maybe the M112JAG mod.

Yeah, only thing is its a Gen 4 m112. But considering those intercooler tanks were good enough for the V8 running its engine coolant through it, it should blow pretty cold in a closed loop system. I'm hoping for a nice cold air charge with minimal parasitic drag. I like M112JAG mod though!

HIGH TECH !!!

I'm diggin that!
Does the blower discharge out the top like the ford m90? If so, how does it pass into the lower intake.

Karma wrote:

The blower fires "up", then the air charge is split into the two IC cores, and then down into the intake runners. Since there are 4 runners on each side and they are sized for a 4 liter engine(4 liters divided by 8 runners = smaller area each runner than I need), I'll probably run them into a small common plenum on each side, and then into 6 runners for the engine. Its gonna be fun!

Top discharge, the inlet is actually where I have a stock TB sitting in the pics. I'll prob use a N* TB since its lower profile and matches the inlet perfectly. The boost dump hoses looks cool, to dump in before each IC core.

It makes it even cooler that it is going on a series 1!

If only I could get the m112 sounding like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3A7l7kBzY0

edit, or this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fa5ivpJwmIQ

Oh man...that second video...

WANT THAT SOUND!...