Write-Up: 1997 Front Control Arm Conversion (to '98 - '99 style)

Good point, Aaron. That's (HANS) the ultimate. But don't forget that guys who normally use the HANS device don't have to worry about the roof caving in on them.
Actually, I was referring to abdominal injuries caused by slamming into the belt itself--which is one of the reasons I install belts that can be worn tight.
Speaking of "worn" reminds me that most people assume their belts are going to be good for as long as they own the car. Not so. It's important to inspect them at least once a year.
And Aaron, lots of luck explaining that HANS to a cop.

Oh, I'm only wearing it for track use. I don't normally drive with a helmet on the street, although I have a couple times. If you want to get some funny looks from fellow motorists, give it a try!

AA wrote:

I don't normally drive with a helmet on the street, although I have a couple times. If you want to get some funny looks from fellow motorists, give it a try!

Or in getting pulled over. Wearing a helmet on the street (in a car) is illegal in most states.

Never heard of that law. I'm pretty sure it's not illegal in my state. I also checked CA driving laws; there's nothing that says you can't. Its interesting, because I've seen video of cops driving patrol cars with helmets in the 60s, I think.

Jamax wrote:

Good thinking, Stu. There's nothing like the feeling of security and control you get by being cinched in tight behind the wheel. My first belts were in a 3-year-old '51 Henry J. Bought them the same place I got the one in the stock car I drove for awhile. First time it really paid off on the road was when a blew a rear tire at 70 in my '53 Buick Special. That was a bit of a workout, but no real problem. There were other times, like when I demolished a Studebaker doing a multiple roll and came out without a scratch or bruise.

Kaiser? Studebaker? My God, I feel young!

(And that takes some doing... I'm always telling these youngsters that they don't have any idea of what sloppy handling is when they denigrate our last-gen Rivieras. Go drive ANY previous Riviera/Grand Prix/etc, or especially a contemporary LeSabre, and then try to tell me that these Rivi's are pigs - especially for FWD! I toss this car around like it was a Camaro.)

Having gotten that off my chest, I think I've had an epiphany as to why GM kept messing around with those vertical control-arm bushings... "Handling" perhaps, but mainly torque-steer.

I think history has shown that transverse-engine FWD and MacPherson struts are a recipe for torque-steer, especially with high output engines. The pre-86 E-bodies had varying amounts of torque, but with the longitudinal mounting of the engine (90* away from the wheel torque,) and the use of both lower and upper control arms, they never had torque-steer problems. I could lay down rubber with a 400HP Toronado and not have to wrestle the steering wheel... I'd bet that with only one control arm handling all the steering, braking and acceleration, the engineers thought that making one of the bushings vertical would help stamp out the alignment changes under acceleration and braking...

thats interesting Eldo. and that sounds logical.

robotennis61 wrote:

thats interesting Eldo. and that sounds logical.

Thank you - though of course logic is the last thing we expect from these guys...

With that logic in mind. Do the 95's experience inherent torque steer based on the mounting arrangement of the control arm.?

I know when I bought my car it had very noticeable torque steer and I just thought it was normal due to the front wheel drive.
But when the trans needed rebuilding, I had them replace all bad trans/engine mounts and when I got the car back and tried to merge into highway traffic I had no torque steer.
An obvious conclusion was that the worn trans mounts, front and rear, allowed enough movement of everything that I had movement of the front end components as well thus causing what felt like Torque Steer.
It pulled heavily to the left, IIRC before mount change.

Excellent thread, and great work!

Eldo wrote:

Kaiser? Studebaker? My God, I feel young!

(And that takes some doing... I'm always telling these youngsters that they don't have any idea of what sloppy handling is when they denigrate our last-gen Rivieras. Go drive ANY previous Riviera/Grand Prix/etc, or especially a contemporary LeSabre, and then try to tell me that these Rivi's are pigs - especially for FWD! I toss this car around like it was a Camaro.)

No kidding! That's my frame of reference when I compare handling.
What some say is wallowing handling with their Riviera puzzles me. I think my '96 handles very well considering I haven't done anything more than struts and bushings. I know it's not a sports car and can be improved. But for everyday use it's more than adequate.
You want to know what wallow and understeer really are, put an '83 Cadillac Seville hard into an off ramp at 60+mph like I once did!

Sweepspear wrote:

Excellent thread, and great work!

Eldo wrote:

Kaiser? Studebaker? My God, I feel young!

(And that takes some doing... I'm always telling these youngsters that they don't have any idea of what sloppy handling is when they denigrate our last-gen Rivieras. Go drive ANY previous Riviera/Grand Prix/etc, or especially a contemporary LeSabre, and then try to tell me that these Rivi's are pigs - especially for FWD! I toss this car around like it was a Camaro.)

No kidding! That's my frame of reference when I compare handling.
What some say is wallowing handling with their Riviera puzzles me. I think my '96 handles very well considering I haven't done anything more than struts and bushings. I know it's not a sports car and can be improved. But for everyday use it's more than adequate.
You want to know what wallow and understeer really are, put an '83 Cadillac Seville hard into an off ramp at 60+mph like I once did!

Thanks Dale - and let's try that same off-ramp with a '76 Eldorado or Riviera!

Hell, I was cut off by a moron in a Dodge van once in our little '92 LeSabre, and even though I was trained to have very 'damped' steering inputs, I swerved to avoid him and did a 180 on the freeway, suddenly facing oncoming traffic.
Even with larger than stock tires on it, that car also gave me a small stroke when it broke loose on the approach to the GG bridge from Lombard Street, at a speed that even my old Eldo could have handled! 30 MPG on a Tahoe trip, but NO HANDLING...

Interesting stuff about the torque steer and possible causes. I've always noticed it, especially as I added more power with mods. But I've also noticed suspension improvements to the front end have helped alleviate it. I've learned to compensate - there's never a feeling of the wheel trying to slip from my hands.

A study on torque steer was done by Ford very recently, in developing the Focus. As most everyone knows, Ford Focus in America is an entry level, fuel sipping, eco-hatch without much performance potential (although they were solid handlers for their time). But what most don't know is the American Focus is still basically the same 1st Gen (Mk 1) as what debuted in '99. There was a minor face lift a few years ago, but mechanically it's unchanged from the Mk 1. However, the international Focus, sold to Europe/Asia and worldwide, actually made a Mk 2 version and recently a Mk 3. These 2nd and 3rd Gen Focuses offer true mechanical and styling refinements, and are positioned higher than the entry level Focus in the U.S.

Taken even to another level, the European Focus RS is a true rally-inspired street performance car, selling for ~$35,000 USD. It is much like the AWD Subaru STI or Mitsu EVO sold in the states. The difference is, Ford played with AWD, and concluded it could do better with FWD. Imagine a 300 HP all-out performance Ford employing FWD. It's now a total reality, and highly respected around the world, thanks mainly to Ford's new RevoKnuckle front end suspension geometry. You can read about it here:

http://www.motorauthority.com/blog/1032432_in-depth-fords-revoknuckle-suspension-and-quaife-lsd-for-the-focus-rs

In the U.S., there is so much unwillingness to use FWD in a sports car, because of its association with understeer and torque steer. We assume there is no getting around it. But Ford knew FWD could be used with great results, and it's hard to deny after watching this: