1988 OLDSMOBILE Toronado - Gradual Loss of Acceleration, Now No Start

Over the course of 5-8 days my car began to gradually lose acceleration power while I was driving. I finally barely crawled home the other day. I wasn't getting missing or knocking just no power when I gave it gas. I have since changed the fuel filter thinking it finally completely plugged itself. I turned the car over while the filter was disconnected and gas shot out. After installing the filter the car does the same thing, turning over but no start. I don't have any diagnostic equipment and not to much money as I am not working so I turn to the forum for help. Thanks, Ren

By chance, does your exhaust sound funny? Like muffled? What you've described sounds like a dying/dead catalytic converter....possible. No SES light??

rivren wrote:

Over the course of 5-8 days my car began to gradually lose acceleration power while I was driving. I finally barely crawled home the other day. I wasn't getting missing or knocking just no power when I gave it gas. I have since changed the fuel filter thinking it finally completely plugged itself. I turned the car over while the filter was disconnected and gas shot out. After installing the filter the car does the same thing, turning over but no start. I don't have any diagnostic equipment and not to much money as I am not working so I turn to the forum for help. Thanks, Ren

- what kind of gas (and additives like STP?) have you been running?
- is your exhaust system original?
- any work on your throttle body?
- cleaned the MAF lately?
- checked the EGR passage for soot (actually this will usually throw a code)

And finally - Hey Abaddon - do you think there might be a problem with Rivren's throttle positioning sensor? Rivren, any issues with your car (an engine fire, repairs under hood like a tuneup) that might have disturbed the wiring?

If not you might want to get a junkyard TPS and swap it in for yours. People don't junk their cars over TPSs and yours may just be punked out. A junkyard one in all likelihood will be good. If they are cheap enough and you are at pik-n-pull then pull 2. Ask at the desk what cars the interchange book says you can pull them out of (there will be a bunch of GM 3800s that should interchange). They don't go bad often but when they do they do silliness like this - won't accelerate b/c car's PCM does not see the throttle change and does not adjust timing to suit. If it just has a dead spot the car thinks you quit accelerating and won't accelerate. The throttle body linkage is mechanical so the throttle plate moves anyway, throwing the fuel/air mix way off and so the car runs crappy. A TPS runs around $50 new so I am thinking $5 to $10 at the U-pull.

Albertj


Oh yeah PS to RivRen - while you are at it if you can measure the battery voltage, make sure a power problem is not putting the PCM into a tizzy. You're looking for 12.2 - 12.6 volts car off and batt disconnected; 13.-something volts idling. Not higher and not lower.

Abaddon wrote:

By chance, does your exhaust sound funny? Like muffled? What you've described sounds like a dying/dead catalytic converter....possible. No SES light??

I'll second this - sounds like a plugged exhaust. Although it should still start before it stalls out, unless it's really plugged and now all your spark plugs are fouled.

Check for the basics - fuel and spark.

You can check for fuel - just listen to the injectors while you have someone crank the engine. You know the FP is pumping.

You can check for spark - just take an old school timing light and hook it up. You won't have a balancer mark to point it at, but it should still flash to indicate you have spark. Or get a spare spark plug, one of the ignition wires and hook the wire up to the plug, ground the plug threads, and watch it for spark while somebody cranks. (don't hold the wire in your hand while doing this!)

But it sounds like the converter is plugged solid.

If it's the cat converter, in addition to being sluggish in gear, a clogged cat would limit RPMs WITH NO LOAD - IN NEUTRAL. Try revving the engine in neutral to see if it struggles to rev. If no trouble, I don't think the cat converter is the issue. If it struggles in neutral, you've probably found your problem.

The no-start situation doesn't suggest the cat converter, imo, UNLESS IT'S REALLY BAD. It also pretty much rules out the transmission. This would most likely be either an air, fuel, or spark problem, or electronic (security) keeping the car from starting. Since you didn't have the no-start issue before the loss of acceleration, it's probably not the security system, so focus on air, fuel and spark.

Air - about the only thing that could keep air from entering the intake is a really dirty air filter. Make sure it's clean (simple, but this will cause the symptoms you're reporting). A quick test would be to remove the filter temporarily and try to start, but I would not drive the car this way.

Fuel - listen for the fuel pump when you turn on the key, before you turn the engine over. It sounds like a faint wine from the rear. Open the trunk to get a better listen. If you confirm the pump is working, check pressure at the fuel rail on the engine. There's a schrader valve on the rail. If you have a fuel pressure gauge, you can test the pressure here.

Spark - test the coil for output. Here are instructions from LS1tech.com:

Ignition Coil Test

1. Disconnect the ignition coil output wire at the distributor cap.

2. Connect a spark plug to the end of the ignition coil output wire which you just disconnected.

3. Connect a ground wire to the threaded portion of the spark plug.

4. Disconnect the ignition coil ground wire from the negative terminal on the coil (Green Wire).

5. Connect one end of a ground wire to the ignition coil negative terminal.

6. Turn the ignition switch to the ON position.

7. Tap the other end of the ignition coil ground wire jumper on an good grounding point (for example the battery negative terminal) and look for sparks at the spark plug that correspond to the frequency of your tapping of the ground wire.

8. If you have a good spark at the spark plug, the ignition coil is good.

9. If you don't get a good spark, check for approximately 12 VDC from the coil positive terminal (black wire) to ground with the ignition switch in the ON position. You should also get approximately 12 VDC from the coil negative terminal (Green wire) to ground

Ignition Coil Resistance Check

In addition to the test above, you may elect to perform an ignition coil resistance check as confirmation of the coil's condition.

1. Check the ignition coil primary coil resistance by connecting an ohmmeter between the positive (Black wire) and negative (Green wire) terminals on the coil. The resistance should be 0.4 to 0.6 ohms.

2. Check the ignition coil secondary coil resistance by connecting an ohmmeter between the coil output terminal and the ignition coil negative terminal. The resistance should be 5000 to 7200 ohms.

I just want to be clear that currently the car will only turn over but not start. I am pumping fuel but get no start.

Quote :

I am pumping fuel but get no start.

By this do you mean you've verified fuel pressure at the fuel rail? Or do you mean "pumping" the gas pedal?

Hmmm... I am still thinking TPS. Can use an ohmmeter to check the current one to see if resistance changes with throttle position or if it is just stuck open or shorted. (check the wiring too)

We will see what Rivren posts.

Albertj

now that it is dark, i pulled a plug, placed it on metal leaving the ignition wire attached, cranked the engine and got spark. the plug came out clean. the air cleaner is clean as well but i removed it and still got only cranking of the engine with no start..

aa: i hear the fuel pump prime when i turn the key. when i had the fuel line off to replace the fuel filter, i cranked the engine and gas came spuritng out. i do not own a fuel pressure gauge but i pushed the schrader valve pin in and gas leaked out. i will try and get a guage to properly measure the pressure. Can i do this if the car is not running?

rivren wrote:

now that it is dark, i pulled a plug, placed it on metal leaving the ignition wire attached, cranked the engine and got spark. the plug came out clean. the air cleaner is clean as well but i removed it and still got only cranking of the engine with no start..

aa: i hear the fuel pump prime when i turn the key. when i had the fuel line off to replace the fuel filter, i cranked the engine and gas came spuritng out. i do not own a fuel pressure gauge but i pushed the schrader valve pin in and gas leaked out. i will try and get a guage to properly measure the pressure. Can i do this if the car is not running?

If the fuel pressure is what it is supposed to be the fuel comes out the rail Schraeder so hard it's an injection hazard... do you think you might have had an issue with the fuel (someone put sugar in your tank?!? rare... leak in a fuel line under car? maybe should check) ?

If the car is not running, when you turn the key on the fuel pump is supposed to prime the fuel rail. Pressure should go up above 35 PSI but I forget to what? 45 PSI? something like that.

Did you check the throttle position sensor? What you do is disconnect the throttle cables (one is gas pedal the other cruise) and use an ohmmeter to measure between (I think) the center pin and the pin on either edge. As you move the throttle lever the resistance should change (smoothly). If not, you have an issue with the TPS and should replace it. Before you do this let Abaddon or someone else chime in and verify I have those pins right.

Albertj

The rail should hold fuel pressure even with the engine off. Pushing the shrader valve pin could spray the fuel - be careful. Albert's 35-40 PSI guess seems about right to me. Find a fuel pressure gauge and/or have it measured before doing anything else. Right now it seems like a fuel delivery issue, imo.

rivren wrote:

now that it is dark, i pulled a plug, placed it on metal leaving the ignition wire attached, cranked the engine and got spark. the plug came out clean. the air cleaner is clean as well but i removed it and still got only cranking of the engine with no start..

aa: i hear the fuel pump prime when i turn the key. when i had the fuel line off to replace the fuel filter, i cranked the engine and gas came spuritng out. i do not own a fuel pressure gauge but i pushed the schrader valve pin in and gas leaked out. i will try and get a guage to properly measure the pressure. Can i do this if the car is not running?

Was the spark Blue? or Orange? The spark should be blue. If it's Orange, the spark isn't hot enough. I've seen Ignition Modules go bad and cause this. Just another thing to add/check.....

There aren't many things that will cause a "gradual" loss of acceleration, and eventually end at a no start. Most of your electronic parts on the car will fail abrubtly, or intermittently i.e. The car will run fine, then not, then run fine, then not. I suggested the CAT because I've seen in happen many times, mostly on Fords, but it happens. Usually, the car will start and then stall when this happens....

To check real quick and see if fuel is the issue (with no gauge), take the intake tube off the TB, and spray some Brake Cleaner or equivalent into the TB (try not to spray the MAF prongs directly). Spray a decent amount in there, and try and start the car. If it starts, then fuel is more than likely the concern.

As for the TPS. Try unplugging it and starting the car. Same goes for the MAF. It's unusual for a MAF or a TPS to cause a no start. They usually cause driveability concerns, but not a no start condition. By unplugging them, the PCM recognizes this, and is forced to use the base tables for engine function.

Not to scare you, but the last car that came into my shop that did what you're decribing ended up with a hole in the #1 piston, and the lack of compression caused it to not start....as I said, not too many things cause what you're describing. We all hope it's something simple....

Before everyone retorts, we cannot hear it turn over, nor watch it with a scan tool, so it's near impossible to diagnose this over the Internet...

thank you all for your input. i will borrow or buy a fuel pressure gauge. i will go from there working through everyone's suggestions. I've been doing some odd jobs around the neighborhood to get together some money to repair this car. i should be able to look at it again this weekend.

what year riv are we talking here. Being from MI as the OP I had a neat little problem similar to Rivren. My filler tube had a rust hole I was unaware of and every time I drove in the rain guess what. Water and rust built up in the tank and killed the pump, fuel rail, injectors, and pressure regulator. But it took a suprisingly long time to do it. It had very similar symptoms. Just a SWAG but it is the rust belt here. Drain some fuel into a glass container and let it settle. You'll know soon enough.

pbrktrt wrote:

what year riv are we talking here. Being from MI as the OP I had a neat little problem similar to Rivren. My filler tube had a rust hole I was unaware of and every time I drove in the rain guess what. Water and rust built up in the tank and killed the pump, fuel rail, injectors, and pressure regulator. But it took a suprisingly long time to do it. It had very similar symptoms. Just a SWAG but it is the rust belt here. Drain some fuel into a glass container and let it settle. You'll know soon enough.

This makes a lot of sense.

LOL! Didn't even notice he was from Metro Detroit. Dude, where at? If ur close, maybe I can look at it for ya....

Here's an update. First off, I read my original post an I did not indicate that I am having what started as no acceleration and finsished with no start on my 1988 OLDSMOBILE Toronado and not my '95 Riv (which is running fine). My apologies. I could not borrow a fuel rail pressure gauge and a new one cost $65 so I put on a new fuel pump and filter. Well I have the same no start problem but I now have a new pump. I'll now go get a salvage TPS and see what happens. More to come.

Scott: I live in Commerce Township by Walled Lake.

I changed the tps with no success. i also switched the ignition module and coil pack with no success. while i had the module/coil off the car, i cranked the engine and it sounded no different than when i have the ignition module and coil pack installed. don't know if that is a clue to what's wrong. i have a salvaged fuel pressure regulator that i will install next. i also have a salvaged camshaft sensor that i have to switch out. i will buy a new crankshaft sensor because of the amount of work i have to do to get to it.

i got ahold of a service manual and used the onboard diagnostic system. It displayed "No ECM codes" and the only BCM code it showed is related to removing the negative battery cable.

does your car have the HEI distributor, and have you checked inside it?

do you have or know anyone who has one of the old Sun diagnostic machines or equivalent?

I believe the '88 has a series I 3800, which should have distributorless ignition, very similar to what is on our cars. Our '86 Century had that, no distributor. We did eventually have to replace the ignition control module in it when it was having a similar sounding problem. But for us changing the ICM fixed it.

it has the coil pack that sits atop the igniton module. i grabbed a cp/im while i was getting the tps at the junk yard. i switched out the cp/im and still got cranking but no starting. i picked up a new camshaft sensor and an o2 sensor today. i will switch them out tomorrow although i changed the o2 sensor when i got the car 2 years ago. i went through and cnanged plugs, wires, etc. i changed the suspension rack and pinion. i did alot of work on this car including leather interior work. this is really a fun car to drive. i will ask about an old sun diagnostic machine. thanks again for the suggestions.

If its getting fuel,then i would say its the crankshaft sensor,don't listen when people say you need to take off the harmonic balancer i have fat fingers and did mine just make sure its in the same place

rivren wrote:

it has the coil pack that sits atop the igniton module. i grabbed a cp/im while i was getting the tps at the junk yard. i switched out the cp/im and still got cranking but no starting. i picked up a new camshaft sensor and an o2 sensor today. i will switch them out tomorrow although i changed the o2 sensor when i got the car 2 years ago. i went through and cnanged plugs, wires, etc. i changed the suspension rack and pinion. i did alot of work on this car including leather interior work. this is really a fun car to drive. i will ask about an old sun diagnostic machine. thanks again for the suggestions.

I'm thinking this problem is something simple but uncommon. It is as if we're not asking the right questions. Shoulda been fixed by now...

Albertj

Update. I removed the harmonic balancer a few hours ago. I may be on to something. Don't want to jinx it. The rubber inside the balancer was almost 90% torn. When I removed it, the mounting shaft/collar of the balancer itself was cracked. I don't think anything was damaged in the engine itself. My next step is to try and find a good intact one at the junk yard. I am hoping this excessive movement was causing the sparking sequence to be off. If this is it, Albertj was correct about it being simple but uncommon. More to come..