| Volumetric efficiency and fuel mileage | |
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+4Mr.Riviera charlieRobinson AA c0reyl 8 posters |
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c0reyl Addict
Name : Corey Age : 33 Location : JMU virginia Joined : 2011-07-25 Post Count : 569 Merit : 2
| Subject: Volumetric efficiency and fuel mileage Tue Dec 18, 2012 7:53 pm | |
| Iv'e been wondering this for a while. If you increase the volumetric efficiency of your engine by 20% without increasing the boost, will you gain fuel mileage at all? | |
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AA Administrator
Name : Aaron Age : 47 Location : C-bus, Ohio Joined : 2007-01-13 Post Count : 18452 Merit : 252
| Subject: Re: Volumetric efficiency and fuel mileage Tue Dec 18, 2012 8:45 pm | |
| In theory, yes. Increases in VE that do not involve boost are beneficial to breathing at all RPM (including low RPM where you use the least fuel). But boost-derived VE improves efficiency only when you're in boost, which is when you're drinking the most gas = not so much MPG improvement there.
That being said, our SC 3800 engines have decent VE when not in boost, which is why MPG numbers can be very good if you stay out of the throttle. _________________ '05 GTO 6.0L • 6-spd • 95k miles • 0-60: 4.8s • 16.9 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26'95 Celica GT 2.2L • 5-spd • 165k miles • 0-60: yes'98 SC Riviera • 281k miles • 298 HP/370 TQ • 0-60: 5.79s • ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 • 4087 lb • 20.1 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30 3.4" pulley • AL104 plugs • 180º t-stat • FWI w/K&N • 1.9:1 rockers • OR pushrods • LS6 valve springs • SLP headers • ZZP fuel rails KYB GR2 struts • MaxAir shocks • Addco sway bars • UMI bushings • GM STB • Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s • F-body calipers EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus • SS lines • Brembo slotted discs • DHP tuned • Aeroforce • Hidden Hitch^^^ SOLD ^^^ '70 Ninety-Eight Holiday Coupe 455cid • 116k miles^^^ SOLD ^^^ | |
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charlieRobinson Expert
Name : Charlie Age : 39 Location : Knoxville, TN Joined : 2011-05-17 Post Count : 3924 Merit : 31
| Subject: Re: Volumetric efficiency and fuel mileage Wed Oct 16, 2013 7:01 pm | |
| Uhhh duhhh what's VE mean? | |
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Mr.Riviera Expert
Name : Matthew Age : 38 Location : Florida Joined : 2007-01-17 Post Count : 4394 Merit : 101
| Subject: Re: Volumetric efficiency and fuel mileage Wed Oct 16, 2013 7:17 pm | |
| Volumetric Efficiency
Its how the air going into the motor is metered without a maf sensor if i recall correctly. Been a few years since ive done any tunning. _________________ 1996 with 254k miles, L32 4" FWI -> ported N* -> Ported Gen V w/3.0" Pulley, Stage 3 Phenolic I/C, ZZP FMHE, 1.84 RR, Headers and 3" pipe to mufflers, F-body brakes, and lowered on Eibachs. -RIP AMG C400 White on black. Stage 2 w/E30 - 11.9@117 -daily | |
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th3fr4nchi5e Addict
Name : Dave Age : 31 Location : Cheektowaga, NY (Buffalo) Joined : 2010-10-31 Post Count : 572 Merit : 30
| Subject: Re: Volumetric efficiency and fuel mileage Wed Oct 16, 2013 7:38 pm | |
| In Thermodynamics, we learned that volumetric efficiency is just how it sounds. It is the percentage of the max possible output that you actually obtain. In a car, making the most of the combustion chamber. I would imagine that a motor with a perfect flowing exhaust and intake would be considered at 100% volumetric efficiency. A supercharger or turbo allows you to reach over 100% VE. Modifications, aside from boring and stroking an engine, when you gain power at least, increase volumetric efficiency. So basically, by dropping to a 3.4" pulley, you're showing your knowledge of fluid dynamics without realizing it! Haha | |
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AA Administrator
Name : Aaron Age : 47 Location : C-bus, Ohio Joined : 2007-01-13 Post Count : 18452 Merit : 252
| Subject: Re: Volumetric efficiency and fuel mileage Wed Oct 16, 2013 8:25 pm | |
| One way to think about VE (the term, not the tuning table) is a ratio of the volume of air entering the cylinder compared to the swept volume of that cylinder, between top and bottom positions of the piston face. Example for L67: 3.8" dia piston and 3.4" stroke: swept volume = 3.1416 x 1.9^2 x 3.4 = 14.74 cu in. If on the intake stroke the engine can suck in 14.74 cu in of air, it's operating at 100% VE. An engine operating at 80% VE will suck in only 11.79 cu in of air for the same stroke. A boosted engine doesn't suck. It will take in more than 14.74 cu in of air, operating at +100% VE. Of course, when talking cu in of air I mean uncompressed cu in. _________________ '05 GTO 6.0L • 6-spd • 95k miles • 0-60: 4.8s • 16.9 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26'95 Celica GT 2.2L • 5-spd • 165k miles • 0-60: yes'98 SC Riviera • 281k miles • 298 HP/370 TQ • 0-60: 5.79s • ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 • 4087 lb • 20.1 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30 3.4" pulley • AL104 plugs • 180º t-stat • FWI w/K&N • 1.9:1 rockers • OR pushrods • LS6 valve springs • SLP headers • ZZP fuel rails KYB GR2 struts • MaxAir shocks • Addco sway bars • UMI bushings • GM STB • Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s • F-body calipers EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus • SS lines • Brembo slotted discs • DHP tuned • Aeroforce • Hidden Hitch^^^ SOLD ^^^ '70 Ninety-Eight Holiday Coupe 455cid • 116k miles^^^ SOLD ^^^ | |
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deekster_caddy Master
Name : Derek Age : 52 Location : Reading, MA Joined : 2007-01-31 Post Count : 7717 Merit : 109
| Subject: Re: Volumetric efficiency and fuel mileage Wed Oct 16, 2013 9:57 pm | |
| AA if it's sucking in 14.74 cu in of air, it's operating at 100% volume. But that doesn't mean you have 100% efficient burn. You will be able to tell by an average of the O2 sensor crosscounts (if you have a wideband) how efficient your burn is, and therefore what your volumetric efficiency is.
Forgive my crude math... Assuming a 14.7:1 A/F ratio desired, you would theoretically want 1 cu in (?) of fuel for 14.7 cu in of air. But in reality, you don't see 100% volumetric efficiency, so based on the rich or lean exhaust detected you adjust the amount of fuel higher or lower. | |
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AA Administrator
Name : Aaron Age : 47 Location : C-bus, Ohio Joined : 2007-01-13 Post Count : 18452 Merit : 252
| Subject: Re: Volumetric efficiency and fuel mileage Wed Oct 16, 2013 10:25 pm | |
| I think of VE simply as a measure of air flow in relative to displacement. The burn certainly impacts VE, but it is a different thing (thermal efficiency). If combustion efficiency is low, it will inhibit the engine's ability to pump air, which results in lower VE.
I would argue that to have 100% VE (if an engine claims it), thermal efficiency would need to be within engineered spec. If it drops below, then VE would also drop. _________________ '05 GTO 6.0L • 6-spd • 95k miles • 0-60: 4.8s • 16.9 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26'95 Celica GT 2.2L • 5-spd • 165k miles • 0-60: yes'98 SC Riviera • 281k miles • 298 HP/370 TQ • 0-60: 5.79s • ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 • 4087 lb • 20.1 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30 3.4" pulley • AL104 plugs • 180º t-stat • FWI w/K&N • 1.9:1 rockers • OR pushrods • LS6 valve springs • SLP headers • ZZP fuel rails KYB GR2 struts • MaxAir shocks • Addco sway bars • UMI bushings • GM STB • Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s • F-body calipers EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus • SS lines • Brembo slotted discs • DHP tuned • Aeroforce • Hidden Hitch^^^ SOLD ^^^ '70 Ninety-Eight Holiday Coupe 455cid • 116k miles^^^ SOLD ^^^ | |
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turtleman Expert
Name : Codith Age : 37 Location : Villa Park, IL Joined : 2007-02-08 Post Count : 3671 Merit : 140
| Subject: Re: Volumetric efficiency and fuel mileage Thu Oct 17, 2013 1:35 am | |
| So you are a believer in VE tuning huh Devin? That's probably the most controversial tuning area for 3800's. Different credible tuners swear one way or the other and personally, I still can't really decide if it does anything. It doesn't help either than the engineers have been known to change stuff like that throughout the evolution of the PCM software/hardware. I want to positively know if the VE map is used at all in normal operation. I know it can be referenced in the event of a maf fail but otherwise, when is it used? | |
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deekster_caddy Master
Name : Derek Age : 52 Location : Reading, MA Joined : 2007-01-31 Post Count : 7717 Merit : 109
| Subject: Re: Volumetric efficiency and fuel mileage Thu Oct 17, 2013 10:50 am | |
| I've never said that it's the only way to do things. But what do you do if you exceed the flow capability of the MAF? (which you are probably near)
After I was done tuning my VE the way I wanted it I could drive with no MAF and the car ran exactly the same. What's that worth? I don't know. I just know I like to have that table correct.
If maf tuning works for you then go for it! I always do MAF tuning after VE tuning and never have knock and barely any STFT or LTFT. (some timing table tuning as well, of course) | |
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Abaddon Expert
Name : Scott Location : Macomb, Michigan Joined : 2010-02-24 Post Count : 4316 Merit : 185
| Subject: Re: Volumetric efficiency and fuel mileage Thu Oct 17, 2013 11:07 am | |
| VE is how GM used to operate their cars. Way back when, they didn't have MAF sensors. They used a Speed Density system which really only looked at the MAP, TP, and O2 sensors for fueling. The MAF sensor is more for fine tuning the fueling. In all reality, one could tune the Riv to basically ignore the MAF sensor if they wanted to...like the deek has said. | |
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turtleman Expert
Name : Codith Age : 37 Location : Villa Park, IL Joined : 2007-02-08 Post Count : 3671 Merit : 140
| Subject: Re: Volumetric efficiency and fuel mileage Thu Oct 17, 2013 1:14 pm | |
| Initially, I started out tuning VE first using tablemodifier during which I unplugged the maf and disabled power enrichment. Even though real VE was a great deal different than stock, about as different as it can get without changing to a different power adder or something, the car still ran ok on speed density (stock VE map). I started trying to tune the VE map and I ended up producing bigger and bigger spikes throughout the table if you look at it graphically. It just looked wrong. I do want to get a more true VE tune in there for testing sake but not just for the event of a maf failure. I already know it will still run. | |
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deekster_caddy Master
Name : Derek Age : 52 Location : Reading, MA Joined : 2007-01-31 Post Count : 7717 Merit : 109
| Subject: temp Thu Oct 17, 2013 1:58 pm | |
| Sometimes if you "raw" Ve tune you get a lot of spikes and valleys, and then you also get a bunch of KR spikes... I find that by manually 'smoothing' out extreme high and low spots after tuning you can get it running damn near perfect. Some peaks and valleys are supposed to be there for whatever reason, I'm sure, but I find it works better when you don't have extremes. I take my VE table after tuning, export, then open it in Excel. I graph it as a 'surface' and look for crazy peaks and holes and look to see where, and possibly why. Then I smooth out what I want by hand, save out the numbers and re-import. I'll try to attach an Excel file from my last VE table. (something seems to be missing in my VE table, not sure why. But this isn't from a recent read) Also, I forgot to include the axis labels. but just looking at it you'll get the idea. | |
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deekster_caddy Master
Name : Derek Age : 52 Location : Reading, MA Joined : 2007-01-31 Post Count : 7717 Merit : 109
| Subject: Re: Volumetric efficiency and fuel mileage Thu Oct 17, 2013 5:14 pm | |
| - turtleman wrote:
- So you are a believer in VE tuning huh Devin?
Wait a second... who's Devin? | |
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th3fr4nchi5e Addict
Name : Dave Age : 31 Location : Cheektowaga, NY (Buffalo) Joined : 2010-10-31 Post Count : 572 Merit : 30
| Subject: Re: Volumetric efficiency and fuel mileage Thu Oct 17, 2013 7:21 pm | |
| - deekster_caddy wrote:
- turtleman wrote:
- So you are a believer in VE tuning huh Devin?
Wait a second... who's Devin? This got merged to the VE thread. Devin was the OP in the thread this discussion was in previously! | |
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AA Administrator
Name : Aaron Age : 47 Location : C-bus, Ohio Joined : 2007-01-13 Post Count : 18452 Merit : 252
| Subject: Re: Volumetric efficiency and fuel mileage Thu Oct 17, 2013 7:59 pm | |
| Sorry, guys. Missed that. Should have merged it earlier. _________________ '05 GTO 6.0L • 6-spd • 95k miles • 0-60: 4.8s • 16.9 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26'95 Celica GT 2.2L • 5-spd • 165k miles • 0-60: yes'98 SC Riviera • 281k miles • 298 HP/370 TQ • 0-60: 5.79s • ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 • 4087 lb • 20.1 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30 3.4" pulley • AL104 plugs • 180º t-stat • FWI w/K&N • 1.9:1 rockers • OR pushrods • LS6 valve springs • SLP headers • ZZP fuel rails KYB GR2 struts • MaxAir shocks • Addco sway bars • UMI bushings • GM STB • Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s • F-body calipers EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus • SS lines • Brembo slotted discs • DHP tuned • Aeroforce • Hidden Hitch^^^ SOLD ^^^ '70 Ninety-Eight Holiday Coupe 455cid • 116k miles^^^ SOLD ^^^ | |
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charlieRobinson Expert
Name : Charlie Age : 39 Location : Knoxville, TN Joined : 2011-05-17 Post Count : 3924 Merit : 31
| Subject: Re: Volumetric efficiency and fuel mileage Thu Oct 17, 2013 8:55 pm | |
| So I was scanning VE today out of curiousity, and I was averaging ~60% VE.
What does this mean? Is my tune way off or what? | |
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AA Administrator
Name : Aaron Age : 47 Location : C-bus, Ohio Joined : 2007-01-13 Post Count : 18452 Merit : 252
| Subject: Re: Volumetric efficiency and fuel mileage Thu Oct 17, 2013 10:31 pm | |
| It probably means you were measuring at idle/cruise. VE increases as the throttle is opens. The engine pulls in the most air at WOT at high RPM. That's when you should see numbers above 100%.
If you don't see higher numbers at WOT, I think your app is miscalculating. _________________ '05 GTO 6.0L • 6-spd • 95k miles • 0-60: 4.8s • 16.9 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26'95 Celica GT 2.2L • 5-spd • 165k miles • 0-60: yes'98 SC Riviera • 281k miles • 298 HP/370 TQ • 0-60: 5.79s • ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 • 4087 lb • 20.1 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30 3.4" pulley • AL104 plugs • 180º t-stat • FWI w/K&N • 1.9:1 rockers • OR pushrods • LS6 valve springs • SLP headers • ZZP fuel rails KYB GR2 struts • MaxAir shocks • Addco sway bars • UMI bushings • GM STB • Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s • F-body calipers EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus • SS lines • Brembo slotted discs • DHP tuned • Aeroforce • Hidden Hitch^^^ SOLD ^^^ '70 Ninety-Eight Holiday Coupe 455cid • 116k miles^^^ SOLD ^^^ | |
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charlieRobinson Expert
Name : Charlie Age : 39 Location : Knoxville, TN Joined : 2011-05-17 Post Count : 3924 Merit : 31
| Subject: Re: Volumetric efficiency and fuel mileage Thu Oct 17, 2013 11:07 pm | |
| I should see above 100% @ WOT? I will test tomorrow....
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turtleman Expert
Name : Codith Age : 37 Location : Villa Park, IL Joined : 2007-02-08 Post Count : 3671 Merit : 140
| Subject: Re: Volumetric efficiency and fuel mileage Fri Oct 18, 2013 1:31 am | |
| Deek, yeah I pretty much did what you said about smoothing the spikes out after doing probably 4-5 data-log/generate-table cycles. I know it needs a lot more work because the changes in the numbers didn't start getting smaller. I do want to revisit this to see if it helps driveability at all but I haven't found myself with the time to drive around all day lately. HP Tuners does all that graphing for you in the editing software so that's what I smoothed the map with. I feel so dirty about manually typing numbers into the cells of big tables like that. haha | |
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