help me pick a new head unit and speakers please!

Ryan in Ohio wrote:

I see people talking about 6x9s. If you have a sub in the back you dont want these 6x9s period. If you dont have a sub then yes, but set them up more as a mid range woofer or subwoofers and NOT full range.

Finally, someone I can agree with 100%. Ryan's obviously listened to a system with true up-front bass and quality mids & highs planted firmly on the dash, front and center - NOT from the rear of the car. Except for a subwoofer, you don't need rear speakers to do this!

I sometimes recommend keeping stock 6x9"s, because they don't have a tweeter and can't take much power - adequate for low level rear fill. But ideally, eliminate the rears altogether.

Well the problem with using the rear 6x9s in cars for rear fill starts with the placement of the 6x9s.

In most cars they are in the rear deck, up high.

When dealing with rear fill heres some pointers:

Keep the speakers as far back and as low as possible. Low taking priority over being far back.

Run them bridged off an amp so they are mono.

They should be attenuated enough when sitting in the front with your eyes closed you can pick them out.

Well my argument for keeping 6x9s is this. In many concery halls ,
arenas , even studios , the sound reflects of all surfaces in the
building and reverberates. in 9/10 listening environments you are not
hearing sound from 1 direction. In a car with many soft surfaces you
won't have this effect as it will absorb the sound. Now one might argue
that that is bad because it creates distortion , but that is part of
live music in many settings ,and it adds character. Depends on how
wanna hear music , as the orignial source or the actual result.
Personally I fade my 6x9s somewhat and don't use them to carry much
bass , but I do hear sound coming from them , i do prefer the surround
sound effect. In live audio when playing usually you're amp(s) are
behind you , so maybe from a musicians standpoint the sound seems more
natural coming from behind.

Point being its a matter of
preference. Rear speakers aren't bad. Listening to only front speakers
doesn't make you a purist or mean you are listening to more realistic
music , because music is heard in many different ways and from many
different perspectives and personally i do like hearing music from
behind me as when i play amped thats usually where it comes from.

Now of course you have big PAs that are mounted up front , but thats mostly because of the feedback that would come out of having extremely loud amps behind you.

TonySmooth wrote:

Well my argument for keeping 6x9s is this. In many concery halls , arenas , even studios , the sound reflects of all surfaces in the building and reverberates. in 9/10 listening environments you are not
hearing sound from 1 direction. In a car with many soft surfaces you
won't have this effect as it will absorb the sound.

I know what you are saying, but the difference is, in a live room or hall (one with echoes from flat surfaces), you have to consider there is delay involved. In a room 40' or so deep, the rear fill could be delayed several milliseconds. A deeper space like a church hall, the delay is even longer.

For rear fill to have real purpose in a car, you must use a signal processor with accurate delay to create the feeling of space. But if you are running the rears in phase with the fronts, your ears can become confused a bit. This is why I recommend keeping the rears very low, or off completely. The result is the sound of a "dead" room (no echoes), which can be a very appealing environment from a purist listener's point of view.

Ryan in Ohio wrote:

They should be attenuated enough when sitting in the front with your eyes closed you can pick them out.

Did you mean to say "can pick them out" or "can't pick them out"? Please clarify..

Cant pick them out. I missed the T.

As for saying "amped" coming from the rear.

Bass is unidirectional. Theres no way to pick out where its coming from unless you see it of can feel air.

Ryan in Ohio wrote:

]Cant pick them out. I missed the T.

I would agree. Good advice.

TonySmooth89 wrote:

In live audio when playing usually you're amp(s) are
behind you , so maybe from a musicians standpoint the sound seems more
natural coming from behind.

I agree with this also. The studio musician likes to hear a different sound than the purist listener, so I can see the point of having strong rear fill here. But with studio monitors all around you, this won't create a realistic sonic performance as you would find at a concert hall, or with a set of high quality stereo speakers in a listening room. Sound engineers and musicians are listening for different things than listeners in the audience, who are trying to enjoy the finished product of the performance.

Ryan from Ohio wrote:

Cant pick them out. I missed the T.

As for saying "amped" coming from the rear.

Bass is unidirectional. Theres no way to pick out where its coming from unless you see it of can feel air.

No i wasn't referring to bass , but i can certainly tell bass when its coming from the rear in my car. Since sonic waves can't bend around objects , it would be impossible for sound to be unidirectional IMO.

I was referring to live audio. As in guitars , drums , bass guitars ,clarinets , flutes , harps , whatever you listen to. The amplifiers are usually behind the people playing.

The amps are more for a monitoring source so you can hear yourself when you play. They're all mic'd or plugged directly into the PA system. Unless it's a very small room, then you don't need to.

captshiner wrote:

The amps are more for a monitoring source so you can hear yourself when you play. They're all mic'd or plugged directly into the PA system. Unless it's a very small room, then you don't need to.

True , but my point was that all listening environments are different , and there is no one correct way to recreate a sound. Even a guitar being amplified is not its natural tone , and the " color" that amps add is something thats desirable in many cases. It all boils down to what sounds best to you.

TonySmooth89 wrote:

No i wasn't referring to bass , but i can certainly tell bass when its coming from the rear in my car. Since sonic waves can't bend around objects , it would be impossible for sound to be unidirectional IMO.

I believe that you can hear bass from the rear of your car, but you might be surprised that there are many cars with high-end SQ systems where you could not. There are systems with three 12"s in the trunk pushing 1000 Watts, where you cannot tell the bass is coming from behind you.

The reason is that some bass (upper frequencies) are directional, while those under a certain note (usually 50 Hz or so) cannot be located in a well-designed system. When you put 6x9"s in the rear and turn up the volume, that's one of the reasons you think you can hear the bass from the back - mid & high freq sounds pulling your attention to the rear. The other reason is, your subs and/or 6x9"s are playing bass in the upper regions, again pulling the sound to the back.

Here is why you want good, expensive components up front - to produce those upper bass sounds and anchor the stage in front of you. The true sub bass will come from the back, but your ears cannot tell it because all the midbass, midrance, and treble convinces you it's all up front.

TonySmooth89 wrote:

True , but my point was that all listening environments are different , and there is no one correct way to recreate a sound. Even a guitar being amplified is not its natural tone , and the " color" that amps add is something thats desirable in many cases. It all boils down to what sounds best to you.

I agree with what you are saying. Most of my comments are coming from the "purist" listener preference. The purist wants true realism, sound that has a "like you were there" quality. The question is, where is "there"? To a purist, that place is the sweet spot of an auditorium, a perfectly placed chair in a listening room, or a seat in the center, a good ways back, at an outdoor show.

But some folks, mainly guitar players, sound engineers, listeners of some electronic music, hip-hop, etc. are after something else, something specific to their musical ideals. Rather than being concerned with localization of voices & instruments, they're looking for a studio experience, and possibly certain frequency bands (ex. bass) equalized louder than what a purist would consider "flat" sound.

My best sounding system was my last.

I had money heavily invested into my front stage and my source. Actually my source was worth more than everything else put together.

For bass duties I ran a single 8" sub. It was plenty enough to make the mirrors vibrate and be noticed- but not overpowering. Im positive it was in the 130 range, under 135 though.

For a balanced system that sounds good all around its imperative to have a balanced setup.

I also run a single 8" sub, which has been part of my system for about 5 years. Perfectly balanced with my system.

Ok so tonight i tried listening to my radio with all the volume from the front...

I like it. Not sure if i like it more than a surround effect ,but i can certainly see how one could like it a lot. Makes me wanna get a good set of components , sell my infinitis and just an older set of speakers in....

So I suppose i'm sort of conceding.

It's not a matter of winning the argument, it's finding out what works best for you. Your willingness to try a different option is respectable. If you should decide to pursue a SQ system in your car, I would be glad to help you out. First step is planning. You have to consider the entire system as a whole rather than just swapping out single components. Then once you have a plan, you can change things a small piece at a time.

If you have time, here are some good reads to help you understand why you need to plan:

http://www.caraudiobook.com/car_audio_cabin_gain/car_audio_cabin_gain.htm

http://www.caraudiobook.com/car_audio_system_planning/car_audio_system_planning.htm

I've come across this site a couple times before. This guy seems to know a lot about the car audio subject. Note how much he stresses to invest in the front speakers and the subwoofer. He doesn't really mention the rear speakers, and he doesn't say to invest more than $200 on a head unit. It's all about speakers, placement, and frequency routing.

Hey guys, I am having a hard time deciding on a new head unit. The guys at Crutchfield have recommended this:
http://www.crutchfield.com/p_020FZ409/Clarion-FZ409.html?search=Clarion+VENDORID020&ssi=0&searchdisplay=Clarion&tp=5684
and this:
http://www.crutchfield.com/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?i=113MP345U

I was kind of digging this:
http://www.crutchfield.com/p_500IDAX303/Alpine-iDA-X303.html?search=idax303&ssi=0&tp=5684

This one is more than I had planned on spending but it seems to have a much better DAC?
http://signature.crutchfield.com/s_500IDA305S/Alpine-IDA-X305S.html?tp=27783

Thanks for any help.

Bert

Of those, I would prefer the Kenwood for the front USB and Aux inputs. Otherwise it's all up to interface preference. I am still stumped by my Pioneer's single-knob interface sometimes and have to read the manual to find what I want to do. I recommend going to a store where you can play with them to see which interface is easier to use.

I went with an Eclipse this time around. I love it! Possibly the best deck I have ever owned.

I used a pioneer because it had blue tooth hands free with its own mike that you put up on the mirror and it is steering wheel friendly meaning the controls will still work with the radio and a/c

black shadow wrote:

I used a pioneer because it had blue tooth hands free with its own mike that you put up on the mirror and it is steering wheel friendly meaning the controls will still work with the radio and a/c

I love that about my Pioneer - the bluetooth is awesome, and salvaging the strg wheel controls was THE saving grace that makes the click-button-wheel control tolerable.

i say ,find yourself an old eight track. very uncomplicated.
otherwise i'd go with the, Alpine x305s...

the control knob doesn't bother me to bad cause I hardly ever use it.

robotennis61 wrote:

i say ,find yourself an old eight track. very uncomplicated.
otherwise i'd go with the, Alpine x305s...

I got a 8track in my GS, its great...

I went with the alpine stuff:
http://www.crutchfield.com/I-rMANc000/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?i=500IDAX303&id=detailed_info#Tab
http://www.crutchfield.com/I-rMANc000/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?i=500KTP445&id=detailed_info#Tab
http://www.crutchfield.com/I-rMANc000/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?i=500SPS600&id=detailed_info#Tab
http://www.crutchfield.com/I-rMANc000/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?i=500SPS406&id=detailed_info#Tab

thanks for the input

I know its not a "high end" component system but it should do well for me...

Bert

I love my Alpine head unit. If I upgrade again I will go with a double din unit.

Why 4x6's? All the Rivieras I have seen are stock rear 6x9's and a stock setup for a component set in the doors. Are you planning on putting a mid and a 4x6 in each door? Or is this 4 the GS?