Riviera Performance
Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

The 8th Gen Riviera Resource
 
HomeDashboardSearchRiviera Questions & AnswersWrite-Ups IndexRegisterRelated LinksLog in

 

 Equal-length exhaust secondaries

Go down 
AuthorMessage
turtleman
Expert
turtleman

Name : Codith
Age : 32
Location : Villa Park, IL
Joined : 2007-02-08
Post Count : 3650
Merit : 138

Equal-length exhaust secondaries Empty
PostSubject: Equal-length exhaust secondaries   Equal-length exhaust secondaries EmptySat Sep 28, 2019 9:32 pm

I think this warrants its own thread. I'm not the first to do this on a 3800 but I am in the middle of an experimental exhaust project so I'll keep adding into this thread as I get things accomplished but today was a good day for my ears.
Most of us on rivperformance, these days, aren't doing performance builds on our beloved rivs like 5-15 years ago but I wish I knew about this much sooner.
So it's pretty well-agreed upon that the FWD 3800 is pretty unsoundly when uncorked. That's why I did up a whole mess of different exhaust systems and eventually went back to quiet as possible as of recent. You watch a bunch of these youtube videos of RWD cars - especially australian vehicles with the same motor and they sound pretty cool loud - like a really aggressive high performance 6 cylinder purr. Why the difference? It's 100% exhaust piping length. The cylinder banks have about the same length of piping before they join together. Our transverse layout means the front bank has significantly more pipe length before it can meet up with the rear bank (something to the tune of 3 feet). This affects exhaust pulse phasing and with our unequal length secondary piping, we get paired-up pulses that sounds kinda cool at idle but goes way sour with rpm. By the way, keeping the two exhaust banks totally separated for the whole exhaust system sounds just as bad as the stock unequal configuration. I guess it's a matter of effectively two 3-cylinder motors not sounding very nice either. But if you get the lengths right and merge them together, it sounds cool. I bet you could go more fancy and do a kind-of bundle of snakes and tune each primary on a individual basis and get it even better but that's outside my ability so I'm just looking to get the bank to bank lengths evened out.

First thing to do is just buy a set of Pacesetter style headers. The copies are a lot easier to get than the O.G pacesetters these days but doesn't matter either way. You can get them in 304 stainless for about $500 or mild steel for about $150. They are w-body headers but the main point is unlike any other header design I've seen, those keep the two exhaust banks separate at the upper downpipe region of the exhaust system. The kit includes a 2-1 junction that you slip on and the the rest of the actual downpipe connects to that. The trick is the move that 2-1 junction much farther back in the exhaust system and add piping to the short exhaust secondary bank however you can within the packaging constraints of the car to make the two banks pretty equal.

This is about where I'm at. I installed the headers on an otherwise totally stock 99 riv. I also got a whole DIY exhaust builder 16 piece piping kit for about $120. There's a number of things I need to work out later such as the oxygen sensor placement & the trans dipstick tube interfering with the header crossover pipe but for now, my mission is tuning the pipe lengths and packaging.

Equal-length exhaust secondaries 2wQrAn
first setup that gave me a result I was after (really just literally throwing pipes together out of the box)
The muffler sorta merges the two not quite like an x-pipe (there's an open space in the middle of the muffler) but I wanted to see if I could make it work for neatness.

Equal-length exhaust secondaries ZNz5xR





All exhaust leaks and stuff aside, this is dangerously close to sounding awesome
Back to top Go down
Rickw
Guru


Name : Rick
Location : Lancaster, MA
Joined : 2008-09-13
Post Count : 6266
Merit : 116

Equal-length exhaust secondaries Empty
PostSubject: Re: Equal-length exhaust secondaries   Equal-length exhaust secondaries EmptySun Sep 29, 2019 2:55 am

Sounded good.

EXCEPT FOR THE DAMN DOG RUINING THE AUDIO.

Don't get me wrong, I love dogs but if your trying to make a sound video, put him/her in the house.

BTW, I'm surprised at what those Stainless Headers cost now. All this info just further pisses me off that I let the car go.
Back to top Go down
Jack the R
Guru
Jack the R

Joined : 2007-01-16
Post Count : 7187
Merit : 95

Equal-length exhaust secondaries Empty
PostSubject: Re: Equal-length exhaust secondaries   Equal-length exhaust secondaries EmptySun Sep 29, 2019 9:03 pm

That does sound pretty good!
Back to top Go down
Abaddon
Expert
Abaddon

Name : Scott
Location : Macomb, Michigan
Joined : 2010-02-24
Post Count : 4309
Merit : 185

Equal-length exhaust secondaries Empty
PostSubject: Re: Equal-length exhaust secondaries   Equal-length exhaust secondaries EmptyMon Sep 30, 2019 10:47 am

Wow. That does sound pretty damn good. That's a lot of work for a sound..... thumbsup
Back to top Go down
albertj
Master
albertj

Name :
Location : Finger Lakes of New York State
Joined : 2007-05-31
Post Count : 7750
Merit : 164

Equal-length exhaust secondaries Empty
PostSubject: Re: Equal-length exhaust secondaries   Equal-length exhaust secondaries EmptyMon Sep 30, 2019 11:03 am

perhaps for better fit run the exhaust in parallel from the headers and at they make the short side loop back along a Y and a couple bends to one two-inlet Flowmaster... ?


Last edited by albertj on Thu Oct 03, 2019 5:59 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top Go down
turtleman
Expert
turtleman

Name : Codith
Age : 32
Location : Villa Park, IL
Joined : 2007-02-08
Post Count : 3650
Merit : 138

Equal-length exhaust secondaries Empty
PostSubject: Re: Equal-length exhaust secondaries   Equal-length exhaust secondaries EmptyTue Oct 01, 2019 9:00 pm

The dog is my neighbor's. He barks at everything.

I got this together to a driveable point. With the one muffler pictured its really tame at idle but wow it picks up big time with some throttle. When I go forward with it, I'm probably gonna add another removable straight-through muffler at the back. It sounds really good if you drive with some aggression and get the engine to sweep through the range a bit rather than like the stock tune wants - upshifting early and lugging the car. This would be right at home on the green riv. I'm wanting more rev's and not getting them haha. On the white one, it sounds so much faster than it goes.. bounce Blipping the throttle sounds awwwesome

I have pics and some little video clips but I'm leaving for a vacation in a few hours so I'll have to do it later. I'm doing too much lately
Back to top Go down
turtleman
Expert
turtleman

Name : Codith
Age : 32
Location : Villa Park, IL
Joined : 2007-02-08
Post Count : 3650
Merit : 138

Equal-length exhaust secondaries Empty
PostSubject: Re: Equal-length exhaust secondaries   Equal-length exhaust secondaries EmptyWed Jan 22, 2020 1:14 pm

I got the compilation of driving clips done finally. Now I'll work my track videos from last year maybe lol
Back to top Go down
Eldo
Expert
Eldo

Name : Mark
Age : 55
Location : West Salem, Oregon... FINALLY
Joined : 2009-04-09
Post Count : 3064
Merit : 103

Equal-length exhaust secondaries Empty
PostSubject: Re: Equal-length exhaust secondaries   Equal-length exhaust secondaries EmptySat Jul 18, 2020 5:00 am

Hey Codith, been a long time.

I don't know if I'm being brilliant or retarded, but isn't the reason for the lousy exhaust sound from our 231/3.8/3800 motors because the General cheaped out and built a V6 on a V8 engine line?

By definition V8's naturally fit a 90-degreee configuration, and V6 & V12 motors fit 60 degrees...  I always figured that was the reason my exhaust sounds like crap @ 2000 RPM - which seems to be the speed that the damned PCM likes to keep it around town!   ARGHHH
Back to top Go down
AA
Administrator
AA

Name : Aaron
Age : 43
Location : C-bus, Ohio
Joined : 2007-01-13
Post Count : 18417
Merit : 245

Equal-length exhaust secondaries Empty
PostSubject: Re: Equal-length exhaust secondaries   Equal-length exhaust secondaries EmptySat Jul 18, 2020 1:38 pm

I believe you're right, mark. A 90° "V" sounds better as a V-8, not so good as a V-6. Even a 60° V-6 does not usually sound "good" compared to inline configurations. VW made a V-6 in the '90s called "VR6" using a 15° "V". It was essentially an inline, and had a great sound. I-4 and I-6 engines inherently have a pleasing note, and a V-12 is basically two I-6s sharing a crank, so that explains that.

But everything is improvable, and exhausts can be tuned to emphasize or attenuate certain frequencies, so even a 3800 can be made tolerable, or even enjoyable with some experimentation. 3800 turbos sounded pretty good in the GN back in the '80s!

_________________
'98 SC Riviera • 281k miles • 298 HP/370 TQ • 0-60: 5.79s • ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 • 4087 lb • 20.1 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley • AL104 plugs • 180º t-stat • FWI w/K&N • 1.9:1 rockers • OR pushrods • LS6 valve springs • SLP headers • ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts • MaxAir shocks • Addco sway bars • UMI bushings • GM STB • Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s • F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus • SS lines • Brembo slotted discs • DHP tuned • Aeroforce • Hidden Hitch

^^^ SOLD ^^^ frown

'05 GTO • 85k miles • 0-60: 4.8s • 16.9 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun


'70 Olds Ninety-Eight Holiday Coupe • 116k miles • 455 Rocket V8
Because cool


'95 Celica • 152k miles • 0-60: yes
Because free
Back to top Go down
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/657082/4
Eldo
Expert
Eldo

Name : Mark
Age : 55
Location : West Salem, Oregon... FINALLY
Joined : 2009-04-09
Post Count : 3064
Merit : 103

Equal-length exhaust secondaries Empty
PostSubject: Re: Equal-length exhaust secondaries   Equal-length exhaust secondaries EmptySun Jul 19, 2020 8:53 pm

Oh, Hi Aaron, I thought you'd retired...  Glad I'm wrong.
Yes, we are in agreement.  As a kid I even remember my old man smog-passing a slant-6 with (california)-illegal headers because he liked the sound!

I know the VR6, but I've never actually heard/ridden/driven one.  They actually came out in 2 angles (I thing they tightened it up to 11 degrees in the 2nd version) and they built them until quite recently.

My mother - of all people- had a Turbo Regal, but it was as quiet as the Rivi with its own "dual" exhaust...  I only remember waiting until June for that big ol' Garrett T3 turbo to spin up (connected to a Q-Jet, no less.)   lol
Back to top Go down
AA
Administrator
AA

Name : Aaron
Age : 43
Location : C-bus, Ohio
Joined : 2007-01-13
Post Count : 18417
Merit : 245

Equal-length exhaust secondaries Empty
PostSubject: Re: Equal-length exhaust secondaries   Equal-length exhaust secondaries EmptyWed Jul 29, 2020 1:37 pm

Ha, I drove a Dart with 225cid Slant-6 in college. That car was quiet as a mouse, and a very smooth power delivery with copious amount of torque!

My friend had a '90s Corrado w/VR6 and a K&N cone on the intake. He let me drive it a few times. I believe the harmonies were emanating from the intake. That thing just howled like a race car.

Turbos are some of the greatest mufflers ever invented. There are not many reasons I would prefer a turbo over a blower, but the exhaust sound is one.


_________________
'98 SC Riviera • 281k miles • 298 HP/370 TQ • 0-60: 5.79s • ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 • 4087 lb • 20.1 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley • AL104 plugs • 180º t-stat • FWI w/K&N • 1.9:1 rockers • OR pushrods • LS6 valve springs • SLP headers • ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts • MaxAir shocks • Addco sway bars • UMI bushings • GM STB • Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s • F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus • SS lines • Brembo slotted discs • DHP tuned • Aeroforce • Hidden Hitch

^^^ SOLD ^^^ frown

'05 GTO • 85k miles • 0-60: 4.8s • 16.9 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun


'70 Olds Ninety-Eight Holiday Coupe • 116k miles • 455 Rocket V8
Because cool


'95 Celica • 152k miles • 0-60: yes
Because free
Back to top Go down
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/657082/4
Eldo
Expert
Eldo

Name : Mark
Age : 55
Location : West Salem, Oregon... FINALLY
Joined : 2009-04-09
Post Count : 3064
Merit : 103

Equal-length exhaust secondaries Empty
PostSubject: Re: Equal-length exhaust secondaries   Equal-length exhaust secondaries EmptyMon Aug 03, 2020 2:19 am

I'll go along with that, except for the fact that our 90-degree V6s just sound like crap @ 2 grand... 80>
Back to top Go down
Jack the R
Guru
Jack the R

Joined : 2007-01-16
Post Count : 7187
Merit : 95

Equal-length exhaust secondaries Empty
PostSubject: Re: Equal-length exhaust secondaries   Equal-length exhaust secondaries EmptyTue Aug 04, 2020 12:22 am

AA wrote:
Ha, I drove a Dart with 225cid Slant-6 in college. That car was quiet as a mouse, and a very smooth power delivery with copious amount of torque!


I know you didn't say something good about the Dart . . .
Back to top Go down
albertj
Master
albertj

Name :
Location : Finger Lakes of New York State
Joined : 2007-05-31
Post Count : 7750
Merit : 164

Equal-length exhaust secondaries Empty
PostSubject: Re: Equal-length exhaust secondaries   Equal-length exhaust secondaries EmptyTue Aug 04, 2020 9:57 am

Jack the R wrote:
AA wrote:
Ha, I drove a Dart with 225cid Slant-6 in college. That car was quiet as a mouse, and a very smooth power delivery with copious amount of torque!


I know you didn't say something good about the Dart . . .

Darts were not bad cars especially the 1971.  They were kind of awful in 1974.  See https://www.allpar.com/cars/dodge/dart.html , it's entertaining.  A better description of relevant Chrysler engineering is in the description of the 1960 Dart (you can find that easily on the Allpar site if interested).
Back to top Go down
AA
Administrator
AA

Name : Aaron
Age : 43
Location : C-bus, Ohio
Joined : 2007-01-13
Post Count : 18417
Merit : 245

Equal-length exhaust secondaries Empty
PostSubject: Re: Equal-length exhaust secondaries   Equal-length exhaust secondaries EmptyTue Aug 04, 2020 10:08 am

Quote :
I know you didn't say something good about the Dart . . .

It was a terrible car with a good engine.

_________________
'98 SC Riviera • 281k miles • 298 HP/370 TQ • 0-60: 5.79s • ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 • 4087 lb • 20.1 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley • AL104 plugs • 180º t-stat • FWI w/K&N • 1.9:1 rockers • OR pushrods • LS6 valve springs • SLP headers • ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts • MaxAir shocks • Addco sway bars • UMI bushings • GM STB • Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s • F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus • SS lines • Brembo slotted discs • DHP tuned • Aeroforce • Hidden Hitch

^^^ SOLD ^^^ frown

'05 GTO • 85k miles • 0-60: 4.8s • 16.9 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun


'70 Olds Ninety-Eight Holiday Coupe • 116k miles • 455 Rocket V8
Because cool


'95 Celica • 152k miles • 0-60: yes
Because free
Back to top Go down
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/657082/4
Eldo
Expert
Eldo

Name : Mark
Age : 55
Location : West Salem, Oregon... FINALLY
Joined : 2009-04-09
Post Count : 3064
Merit : 103

Equal-length exhaust secondaries Empty
PostSubject: Re: Equal-length exhaust secondaries   Equal-length exhaust secondaries EmptyTue Aug 04, 2020 9:58 pm

Until the smog made it gutless AND thirsty the slant-six was a great engine.
As for the Dart, at least they made the coupe a whole different & attractive body in the Sport & Duster...
(Anyone remember the "Conver-Triple"? I think it was a Sport body with with a crank sunroof & fold-down rear seats. Thus, it was a sport coupe, a 'convertible' and a useful wagon. I wanna' say I've also seen that body with a rear-glass & trunklid 'hatchback' like the later Novas.)
Back to top Go down
Jack the R
Guru
Jack the R

Joined : 2007-01-16
Post Count : 7187
Merit : 95

Equal-length exhaust secondaries Empty
PostSubject: Re: Equal-length exhaust secondaries   Equal-length exhaust secondaries EmptyWed Aug 05, 2020 6:07 am

AA wrote:
Quote :
I know you didn't say something good about the Dart . . .

It was a terrible car with a good engine.

Uncle Tony has two of them -



Back to top Go down
Sponsored content




Equal-length exhaust secondaries Empty
PostSubject: Re: Equal-length exhaust secondaries   Equal-length exhaust secondaries Empty

Back to top Go down
 
Equal-length exhaust secondaries
Back to top 
Page 1 of 1
 Similar topics
-
» Is all poop created equal?
» Length, Diameter and Weight of Bolts?
» Length of production information
» Length of Fantasy Necklaces
» brace height and draw length for fibreglass bow

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
Riviera Performance ::   Supercharged 3800 Tech :: Series II Engine & Transmission-
Jump to: