Looking for advice

Having trouble with the car stalling when you let off the gas pedal. Please help!

Anousain2019 wrote:

Having trouble with the car stalling when you let off the gas pedal. Please help!

When was the last time you serviced/cleaned the throttle body, and did you remove it or just spray in a cleaner while mounted?

I just got the car a few weeks ago I have no idea when the last time anything was done to it.

Anousain2019 wrote:

I just got the car a few weeks ago I have no idea when the last time anything was done to it.

Do you have a garage in which you can work on the car for a while? Is your "service engine soon" light on?

I mean, there are more questions but I'm guessing at this point that your IAC circuit (an air passage) is partly blocked. It's an easy but kind of time consuming repair.

If that is the case, you will need a set of factory service manuals (part so you don't break stuff doing the R&R and part so you have further troubleshooting diagnostics guidance), a Torx(R) security bit probably to get the MAF off, a replacement throttle body gasket (cheap), a razor (to get the remnants of the gasket off) a replacement IAC solenoid (also fairly cheap), some throttle body cleaner (not necessarily spray), some common wrenches/screwdrivers, and a disposable baking dish. You will want to search on this site to find directions for removing and cleaning the throttle body, and replacing the IAC.

In your 'signature' you should add the year of your car, the engine (series I or II, and supercharged or not), your location (state/country).

Albertj

If you're starting from scratch, you want to accomplish some basics so you have a starting reference point. I'd be looking to secure all the basic elements for preventive maintenance. Filters need changing...oil, gas, air and eventually cabin. Antifreeze and thermostat when weather permits. Albert's comment about cleaning the throttle body is an excellent place to start, and removing the throttle body isn't all that difficult. You'll need a decent 1/4" and 3/8" socket set, a set of wrench, open and box. If you're just starting out, and plan to do some mechanics, get some half way decent tools, since they'll last you a lifetime. Unfortunately, Sears has pretty much departed this world for the DIY'er in lifetime guarantees, but Harbor Freight's offerings in hand tools has picked up the slack and at half the price. This Riviera site is a GOLD MINE of useful information and they guys ranked "guru" post often and answer your questions pretty promptly. And while the Buick looks daunting, the large size sometimes translates in to more space to work on your car rather than a cramped Japanese rig with a V-6 jammed into a space designed for in inline 4 cylinder motor. Happy hunting.

I don't think the Riviera has a cabin filter, but it wouldn't hurt my feelings to learn that it does.

Anousain2019 - What year Riv do you have? Is the engine supercharged? What is the mileage?

Do you have trouble restarting the car when the engine dies?

You are correct.  It doesn't.  I somehow got it in my mind that of course, it simply HAS to, since my '91 & '94 BMW's had them (and a real PITA to change), plus other cars of less noteworthy pedigree also had them.  That's fine.  I didn't have one in the '62 Ford and somehow lived to tell the tale.  One less thing to worry about this side of having to change out the accessory belt when Amazon delivers it on Monday and the temps are gonna hit a high of somewhere in the high 30's.  Good pickup.  Hate passing along bogus information.

Have you done belts (on the Riviera) before?

Deleted.

I have NOT done belts before.  I was looking for a write up, and did stumble across one, quite lengthy, and on page 1, it basically said NOT to put the old block of wood under the oil pan.  I had PM Albert on this and will probably get a reply tomorrow.  Sadly, the pictures posted in the original thread "way back when" don't seem to be showing up, as I gathered from the description that there's a recommendation to "build a cradle" to avoid doing just that...putting pressure on the oil pan.  Having just changed an oil pan + oil pan gasket, I want to avoid that, since that was the source of an oil leak.  I was wondering if I was better off supporting the engine above with an engine hoist rather than blocking it from below.  Seems that would accomplish the same thing, it's just that most people don't have a hoist, but floor jacks are far more accessible.

One other thing.  You sure you posted the pictures above in the correct place?  They don't seem to correlate to anything in this thread.

EyeDoc1: there is a boss on the engine by where the oil pan bolts onto the block that you can put a floor jack onto.

By "Boss", (never mind--I looked it up on wikipedia as it related to engineering).  Know where it located...drivers side, passenger's side?  Albert got back to me and he mentioned to look up by the radiator mounting hardware and there may be a place where you can remove a bolt and slip on the belt and therefore avoid the whole motor mount issue.  I gotta check this thread...  

https://rivperformance.editboard.com/t725p165-write-up-replacing-belts-and-pulleys#134330

Might be something useful here.

EyeDoc1 wrote:

I have NOT done belts before.  I was looking for a write up, and did stumble across one, quite lengthy, and on page 1, it basically said NOT to put the old block of wood under the oil pan.  I had PM Albert on this and will probably get a reply tomorrow.  Sadly, the pictures posted in the original thread "way back when" don't seem to be showing up, as I gathered from the description that there's a recommendation to "build a cradle" to avoid doing just that...putting pressure on the oil pan.  Having just changed an oil pan + oil pan gasket, I want to avoid that, since that was the source of an oil leak.  I was wondering if I was better off supporting the engine above with an engine hoist rather than blocking it from below.  Seems that would accomplish the same thing, it's just that most people don't have a hoist, but floor jacks are far more accessible.

One other thing.  You sure you posted the pictures above in the correct place?  They don't seem to correlate to anything in this thread.

If you've got a hoist, by all means use it. I've used the block of wood technique several times and haven't damaged the gasket.

I wrote the write up you saw, although I believe AA moved the thread and it shows up under his name. The missing pics were hosted by a friend of mine who got rid of his website, so the original URLs are all broke. I've been thinking about redoing the write-up as a .pdf, but I haven't found the time and I don't know where I'd host it.

EyeDoc1 wrote:

By "Boss", (never mind--I looked it up on wikipedia as it related to engineering).  Know where it located...drivers side, passenger's side?  Albert got back to me and he mentioned to look up by the radiator mounting hardware and there may be a place where you can remove a bolt and slip on the belt and therefore avoid the whole motor mount issue.  I gotta check this thread...  

https://rivperformance.editboard.com/t725p165-write-up-replacing-belts-and-pulleys#134330

Might be something useful here.

Radiator was a smartphone spell-check error. The place to remove the bolt is the lower front of the bracket for the passenger-side motor mount. It's a little tough to describe but when you look at the mount bracket from under the car it's pretty obvious. The lower rear bolt goes through a standoff that is part of the cast bracket, and the lower front bolt goes through a ferrule. Take that bolt off, the ferrule simply drops out and you can change the belts. Suggest you clean up the grime that might be in that area so you don't get any on the new belts.

One reason I PM's Albert was somehow it appears the original poster, Ashley, has disappeared from the scene.  I see where you asked for her car specs and never got them, and I hope him or her gets back to solving the stalling problem.

I had to go look up what a "ferrule" was, as the only time I ran across that was in regards to an M-1 rifle.  And yes, Jack did post the original thread, that has stretched to 14 pages.  I don't know of hosting, Jack, and I know Photobucket has ruined many a long standing website when they changed their policies.  But I think I did run across a picture of that long 3", maybe 4" piece of metal that appears to be not round, but semi-circular, as if someone took an angle grinder along the length of the piece and would enclose the bolt, and therefore would make removal a cinch.  Local modification?  Product improvement?  Again, I don't know.  But I think I'm going to tackle this after Thanksgiving, 2019.

Thanks for all your help.  Amazon's gonna deliver both belts this week.

Happy Thanksgiving all,

Christen

EyeDoc1 wrote:

One reason I PM's Albert was somehow it appears the original poster, Ashley, has disappeared from the scene.  I see where you asked for her car specs and never got them, and I hope him or her gets back to solving the stalling problem.

I had to go look up what a "ferrule" was, as the only time I ran across that was in regards to an M-1 rifle.  And yes, Jack did post the original thread, that has stretched to 14 pages.  I don't know of hosting, Jack, and I know Photobucket has ruined many a long standing website when they changed their policies.  But I think I did run across a picture of that long 3", maybe 4" piece of metal that appears to be not round, but semi-circular, as if someone took an angle grinder along the length of the piece and would enclose the bolt, and therefore would make removal a cinch.  Local modification?  Product improvement?  Again, I don't know.  But I think I'm going to tackle this after Thanksgiving, 2019.

Thanks for all your help.  Amazon's gonna deliver both belts this week.

Happy Thanksgiving all,

Christen

Yes there is a drawing of that mount contraption in the factory service manual. and you'll ROFL when you actually look at the mount because it does not look all that much like the service manual drawing... Your surmise about the ferrule is correct enough.  Really, it'll make sense when you're under the car looking at it.  The bolt that goes into the mount might remind you of the butt plate screw (different size though) and the ferrule is really a hollow cylinder, like a 9mm cartridge with both the tapered portion and the firing pin end cut off.  I might/would have been more correct calling it a spacer, such as spacers used in chassis assembly for electronics, such as at the link: https://www.aluminumspacers.com/spacers-by-outer-diameter/7-16-outer-diameter/as44-14-80 or others.

I was told that not long after the Riv was re-introduced as a '95 model, the mount was modified for MY '97 production because of screaming from the dealer mechanics. If what I was told was correct, one of those dealer technicians modified mounts as he had to change belts and the info went back to factory through that zone, then the running change was made.

I believe this is the ferrule/spacer we're talking about.

The necessity to support the engine and unbolt engine mount was keeping me from replacing the belt for months, I was like "Nah, the belt has been holding up all these years, it will definitely not snap this week, I'll replace it some other day".  
Now, with this ferrule, it seems like a 30 minute job. Thanks for the info!

I don't think that's going to work.  IIRC the bolt the ferrule is on is too long to take out with the motor in its regular position.  You have to remove the motor mount and raise the motor so you can take the bolt out over the top of the rail the motor mount is sitting on.

If a belt does break on you, it's going to tear up your underhood insulation. I wouldn't put it off any longer.

Jack the R wrote:

I don't think that's going to work.  IIRC the bolt the ferrule is on is too long to take out with the motor in its regular position.  You have to remove the motor mount and raise the motor so you can take the bolt out over the top of the rail the motor mount is sitting on.

If a belt does break on you, it's going to tear up your underhood insulation.  I wouldn't put it off any longer.  

Really, you just have to tilt the engine a bit and if you don't horse it, no problems gettign the bolt in/out unless your other engine mounts are wack.  I've done it twice.  Admittedly, that's why I installed Gatorback belts and high quality pullies the second time... I looked in my logs, I have over 100,000 miles on those Gatorbacks so far.   I checked them when I did the LIM/Plenum gaskets and they seemed 100% fine -- I have read of them going past 200K miles but I'm not sure I wanna be the guinea pig.  I've had 2 sets of OEs, 1 set of Dayco PolyCog, and 1 set of Gatorback belts.  The Gatorbacks have **far** outlasted every other belt.

That said, your picture is not highlighting the bolt of interest.  The bolt of interest is under the crank pulley, not near the water pump pulley. Here is an instruction set with photos at this LINK. The main photo of interest is right after instruction step #4 (not to be confused with Mambo Number Five).  Really, it'll make sense when you're under the car looking at it.  And I mean UNDER, you can't really see the bolt of interest from the top, too much clutter.  

What that author wrote was,

"2. You'll need to remove the 2 bolts from the power steering (ps) pump to facilitate loosening the top two motor mount nuts. There are 3 large holes in the ps pump pulley that you can use to remove its bolts. If you encounter ANY resistance when removing the bolts, make sure your socket is not pressing on the pulley from the inside. If you continue removing the bolt in spite of this resistance, you will damage the pulley or pump. If you encounter resistance, rotate the pulley slightly to provide clearance. After completely loosening the two bolts, I left the bottom bolt in the pump housing and removed the top bolt completely.

Pivot the pump out of the way so you can access the top left motor mount nut. Loosen it (15mm) slightly, but don't remove it. There is another identical nut just above and to the right of the water pump pulley; loosen it slightly too. You are loosening these nuts so that you can remove the spacer mentioned in step 4. Loosen them just enough to remove the spacer. DO NOT REMOVE THEM! As long as you don't remove these two nuts, the engine will remain supported. I don't remember needing to support the engine with a jack."

In my experience, you don't do any of that step 2 on the Riviera (author is working on an Olds).  If I remember correctly here is what you do: you get the car up on jackstands (on the frame rails, it will be kinda way up there, see service manual for jack stand points) then take off the passenger side front wheel, and move the plastic inner fender out of the way if it is in the way.  Then you get the jack under the boss and snug it up, careful NOT to take any weight off the car/jackstands.  Then you remove the bolt of interest; you may or may not  need to move the engine with the jack to clear the frame rail depending on how healthy the transmission mounts are.  The spacer will likely be stuck in place.  Jack up the engine a little more (a stroke of the floor jack maybe) and the spacer should fall out "tinkle tinkle." WHY?  Because the boss you are using for all this gentle jacking is on the drivers side of the engine more or less and when you jack up the engine a little the mount flexes a little and drops the spacer.  With the spacer out, then slip the old belts off, the new belts on (please remember to put the new belts on AND double check the routing), hold spacer in place while you insert bolt, then if you have to, lower jack a little so the bolt lines up with the hole it threads into (spacer will be cinched by the mount when you move the jack,  so you don't have to hold it any more), get bolt threaded into place and lined up (go ahead and bolt it down if you can) -- if you have to, then go ahead and either lower the jack just a little or pump it a little so things all line up, tighten that bolt, then you are constructively done. (although you still have to get the car off the stands he he).  While you are under there, inspect your transmission mounts.  I think the bolt is a t-80 or some such TORX(R) socket (might move with an 8MM 6 or 12-pt socket) and the nut securing it might be 18MM.

ALSO

There is an instruction on CarGurus (LINK) saying,

"place a jack beneath the engine, remove the bolt from lower part of the motor mount, lower the engine until you are able to see/get to a star shaped bolt located near the harmonic balancer and crank sensor plug. It may be necessary to first remove the 18 mm nut or use a 8mm on the star shape bolt to remove the bolt from a sleeve."

I don't remember it quite that way but it would probably work fine to do that.  What would be happening -- the engine kind of floats among the engine and transmission mounts.  Get a jack under there to get that bolt to clear the frame rail and pull the bolt - then when you lower the engine the passenger side mount bracket will pull away from the engine and release the spacer. Installation would then be pretty much the reverse of removal.

One other thing I might add is:
If your interested on making the SC belt replacement easier in the future, you can cut the spacer in half with a fine tooth hacksaw and re-install the 2 pieces on reassembly.
The next time you need to replace the SC Belt it will be easier by loosening the bolt until the half of the spacer drops out and you can feed the belt through that gap.

The above was told to me by a GM Tech that did this kind of stuff all the time. I also read the same thing on here many years ago, but don't know if the thread with that info and pic's still exists.

This may be year dependent, but my brain is mush. Can't remember. I know I performed this on my 98 and it helped me greatly when it spit the SC belt. Then I installed a Gatorback as Albert has mentioned.
Never had to replace that belt again.
But my car ended up in the boneyard with about 120K or 130K miles, can't remember that either.

The Gatorback was installed around 85Kmiles.

Rickw wrote:

One other thing I might add is:
If your interested on making the SC belt replacement easier in the future, you can cut the spacer in half with a fine tooth hacksaw and re-install the 2 pieces on reassembly.
The next time you need to replace the SC Belt it will be easier by loosening the bolt until the half of the spacer drops out and you can feed the belt through that gap.

The above was told to me by a GM Tech that did this kind of stuff all the time. I also read the same thing on here many years ago, but don't know if the thread with that info and pic's still exists.

This may be year dependent, but my brain is mush. Can't remember. I know I performed this on my 98 and it helped me greatly when it spit the SC belt. Then I installed a Gatorback as Albert has mentioned.
Never had to replace that belt again.
But my car ended up in the boneyard with about 120K or 130K miles, can't remember that either.

The Gatorback was installed around 85Kmiles.

If you did this (half-spacer) you might not have to jack the engine around at all... Hmmm...

Albertj

OK, Thanksgiving 2019 is done. It was belt time yesterday. Job took about 3 hours to do. It was both difficult and easy at the same time. Allow me to explain.

I spent so much time fixating on the ferrule and removing the external TORX bolt that I forgot the first basic thing. Again, let me start over.

Jack up the car: I used ramps, then a floor jack to place the Rib on jack stands. I get good room underneath to work. Then I looked for the "Boss" for the floor jack. I looked over and found a spot beyond the oil pan, on the drivers side of the engine. Not sure if that was the engine or the transaxle where the boss was located, but since the engine is east-west orientation, as is the oil pan, forget a jack point in the vicinity of the oil pan, on the passenger side of the car, look towards the flat spot by the transaxle, and I'm pretty sure I was on the transaxle. Given this, and jockeying the floor jack around, I said "screw it" and hauled out my Harbor Freight engine hoist. Threaded a chain on the two engine mounts, even leaving the plastic engine cover in place. Couple of pumps and the engine was taut.

Plastic splash panel removed and bent out of place. Got the 18 mm nut off (deep 3/8" drive socket) the bolt/TORX head pictured, then unscrewed the external TORX long bolt (about 4.5"). Ferrule spun easily. The ferrule, not coincidentally, appears to be about 4" long and after I removed it, appears to look like a James Bond pistol silencer. Thick, heavy metal cylinder with a hole in the center. I mean thick and heavy piece of metal. But fuggedaboudit if you think you're gonna simply slip that bolt off and watch the ferrule (silencer) drop out. It's true, the frame rail prevents you from easily removing that bolt, unless...and here where Mr Shade Tree part changer goofed up.

I forgot to remove the 15mm bolt that threads thru the upper motor mount (see paragraph 2 above the first basic thing. If you don't remove that bolt, you ain't going no place. When I finally figured that out, THAT'S HOW you can manipulate the motor itself (finally understood what it meant to "horse" a motor around) to slide that motor mount bolt free (and you'll need a wrench on the other side of that 15mm nut). The picture shows the bolt passing thru the motor mount. Bolt head is on the right, nuts on the left (in the shadow), but no mistaking it once you get your wrench out. I think I grabbed an 11/16" on the nut and it worked. Pretty hard to screw that up. The engine hoist was a godsend compared to the finicky floor jack. Allowed for finer control if doing this one man. If you're doing this as a two man job, it'd go much easier. Anyway, once the bolt was removed, the engine can be lowered to remove the ferrule TORX bolt, and the ferrule. There is also an electrical connector, maybe a crank sensor by the ferrule that you should disconnect. Easy peasy, disconnects 1-2-3. Some banging and clanging to remove the ferrule, but it came free. Bolt, ferrule, and sensor connector gone, and belts off.

Now the fun begins. Installing the accessory belt first is always an interesting challenge as you have to figure out how the "thread pattern" of sliding one part of the belt over a tensioner in a narrow space between the frame rail and the front of the tensioner is accomplished. It's hard to describe exactly HOW you'll manipulate the accessory belt and get it threaded correctly, since you have to account not only for the routing of the belt diagram, but getting the belt either over or under that ungodly large bracket where the ferrule is mounted. Trust me, you'll figure it out. I never recommend cutting a belt to remove it, as you never know when something goes wrong and you have to reassemble something (ask me how I know that in 50 years of wrenching) in case you actually have to use the car for something. Anyway, I fully installed the accessory belt on the tensioner. One down, one to go.

The supercharger belt was more challenging as it seemed almost impossible to thread it correctly, and when it's dark and cold, the frustration factor goes up. Like "how the flip does this thing go on" wasn't exactly what I was saying, but since it came off, it obviously HAS to go on, and eventually I figured out how to route the belt properly. Installed it on it's tensioner and then reversed the process.

I had to play with the hoist in the "up" position to get the ferrule in place, accomplished with the handle end of a 3 lb hammer. Once in place, I loosely placed a 2" bolt thru the mount into the ferrule so he ferrule wouldn't drop out when I lowered the engine to thread in the 4.5" TORX bolt. Engine lowered, 2" loose bolt (you also could use a nail or anything just to hold that ferrule in place and keep it from falling out) removed, and 4.5" threaded TORX bolt installed and tightened. I loosely placed the 18mm nut over the TORX stud. Hook up the sensor. Done.

Moving topside, used the hoist to raise the engine and alignment was PERFECT to slide the bolt into the motor mount. Tightened the 15mm (about 5" long) bolt into the motor mount, holding the nut in place with an open end wrench and snugged it up. Went underneath and tightened the nut on the ferrule with the 18 mm deep socket. Installed the plastic shield with those push pin plastic holders, and started the car. No squeaks or squeals noted. Tire on, and off the ramps and patted myself on a job that could be as much as $400 bucks, or so I heard.

And now the "Service Engine Soon" light just came on.

Can't I catch a break with this car?

I know the feeling, but it's 21 years old and has 200k on it. It's amazing that these cars have held up as well as they have.

Anousain2019 wrote:

I just got the car a few weeks ago I have no idea when the last time anything was done to it.

BUMP

I suspect you either fixed your problem, took your car to a repair shop, or sold/junked it. What's up?

Hi Christen - just let us know what code that SES light represents. If the car is otherwise running normally it's probably not that bad. You might check the crank sensor wiring/connection, too, I doubt that's an issue though.