Subwoofers, Speakers & Amps

AA wrote:

I use my iPhone suction mount for all that + GPS & dyno for the car!

Aaron, if you are interested later, in improving the DAC output from your iPhone if you ever decide to use with studio headphones, or better yet, want to maximize quality from your stock stereo:

http://www.amazon.com/FiiO-Portable-Headphone-Amplifier-Black/dp/B003N0XDT4/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1342629165&sr=1-1&keywords=fiio+e7

http://fiio.com.cn/product/index.aspx?ID=28&MenuID=020301



These specs are extremely impressive for a portable USB DAC headphone amp combo, especially at that price.

http://www.amazon.com/FiiO-L7-Line-Dock-Cable/dp/B004QVNS0S

Line output dock for the E7/E17. This would give you the best possible quality for the price, in my opinion, and would make your iPhone probably sound better than the CD deck of your stock head unit, with a DAC that nice.


Just something to keep in mind, I plan on actually get one eventually for my studio cans

Thanks, I'll look into it. I've had a pretty good set-up since I installed my system 8 years ago. Sounded good then, still does now. Guess I will need to upgrade at some point, but at the moment I'm enjoying the seranade of a newly rebuilt engine.

AA wrote:

Thanks, I'll look into it. I've had a pretty good set-up since I installed my system 8 years ago. Sounded good then, still does now. Guess I will need to upgrade at some point, but at the moment I'm enjoying the seranade of a newly rebuilt engine.

No problem. And, you'd be surprised at what simply a better DAC and line out to a superior analogue setup can do. I never even realized how extreme the difference was until I started using high quality headphone amps. They make my headphones that suck on an iphone, some of the best sounding headphones Iv'e heard, and because of this, the set of cans actually got a terrible review, not deserved.

I'm not joking by the way. My headphones on my headphone amp have better imaging than my analogue surround sound out to 5" kevlar 0.05% THD bi amplified 1" Silk dome studio monitors with the Velodyne ULD 18 subwoofer (best sub I ever heard yet, when it worked right), even though the highs are ever so slightly recessed, all of the imaging is present with a good headphone amp. On a good FLAC file, I can basically hear it as if I were in the studio as they recorded it (I know what this feels like, I interned at a recording studio for 3 months).

My friend has a $1000 Musical Fidelity CD player:



just a damn cd player. Years ago, which has 0.006% THD and over 115db A-weighted signal to noise ratio (this is a very high number for a cd player) I hooked my studio monitors up to it on some great recordings, and this is the moment that opened my eyes up to what I really had, it was that moment I realized my ears had fully adjusted to high fidelity sound. and these cans, while slightly recessed actually have better transparency and imaging detail/soundstage than these studio monitors on that Musical Fidelity. I think the reason why my cans have a better soundstage while even being slightly recessed is the 35,000 Hz top end frequency response. Even though you can't hear it a 30 kHz signal, your ears will benefit from it because of its first sub-harmonic (15 kHz), second sub-harmonic (7.5 kHz), and third (3.75 kHz), All these sub-harmonics combine with the primary sound and basically make it sound much more real. That along with the fact that my headphone amp in the sound card actually has better specs than that cd player are probably the main factors.

I can guarantee you I hear a difference in FLAC files on my pc to mp3 with the headphone amp. IF you become interested in headphone sound quality, hit up the Head-Fi forums, they have insane amounts of info on it, and luckily, high end headphones are much more affordable to obtain top quality. The only thing I'd say is better about a speaker setup is the fact you can feel the bass for home theater or electronic music (my cans do vibrate the skull but it's not the same), and going near 20Hz, it's just not the same as an ultra high quality sub. The sound is there, but it's hard to explain. Iphone headphone amplification and even my Yeti USB mic headphone amp (still is high quality) are worlds apart. I'm just a little shocked that all of what you know about audio (you've taught me a lot actually just by replies) that one of the biggest audio bottlenecks seems to constrain you.

However, I do realize you're not trying to have an ultimate multi thousand dollar setup, but even on my speaker system, the difference between my Ipad headphone out, and the head unit DAC was very, very noticeable. A lot has to do with the DSP (digital sound processor) is probably never actually flat on an iphone headphone out. they tune it for crappy ipod headphones to sound better as default settings in the factory. I favor completely flat EQ's if I can get away with it, or what sounds most flat to ear. in fact, the tone settings on my headphone amp are low on bass, and slightly upped on treble most of the time, just because I listen to a lot of pandora, and electronic music tends to be very bass heavy, and upped amplification will start hurting my ears from too much bass turned up louder, but the cans are far from bassy, unless you crank them up loud, and even then, the bass never overpowers anything else, whereas on an iphone cranked up, it will literally start gargling, which I realized later on that it was actually clipping my drivers, from being under amplified.

Which made me realize: headphones blow out on max volume, not because of too much power, but the amplification itself is maxing out, and causes clipping. You know well what that does to regular drivers

How do I know this? On either of my headphone amps, my cans will get louder than laptop speakers by a fairly decent amount and still not clip at all, this is how I burned them in at max treble for over a month to really loosen up the highs. A month straight of internet radio non stop 24/7 with 250mw in the headphone drivers, loud enough to hear 5 rooms away in the house still did not blow my drivers. It was initially intended as a torture test until I got the idea of using it as a burn in.


In short, I'm just providing fond anecdotes which reveal more about the undesireable DAC in your main MP3 player, and I think you'd probably be very happy with a new portable DAC setup and headphone amp combo, possibly happy enough to pick up a set of studio cans

I'm going to let you know though, studio cans are very pointless without a decent headphone amp. If you ever judged the quality of said "high end" headphones (even crappy beats) at an Apple store or best buy, trying them on, then your review of them was undeserved of whatever quality they might have. I'm kind of bummed I never got to hear the quiet comfort 3 on a headphone amp, but I'd still never pay $400 for anything from BOSE

You lost me at DAC...LOL.

You are the audio guy, I'm the mechanical guy. All is well.

Well, that's all good if it works for you. I really don't listen to headphones much anymore, except to verify a good audio source - if it sounds good through the phones, it's good enough to amplify for loudspeakers, imo. The MDRs sound great on my iPhone without external DAC. My reference for comparison is listening to quite a bit of live music. I've developed an ear for live and pro audio sound at these events, and so I know what to listen for in recorded tracks.

Worth noting, I bought a single-ended triode headphone amp (12AU7 tube) and noticed a drop in quality compared to listening direct from the output of the iPhone. In other words, I perceived even-order distortion introduced by the amp and didn't like it. Then I gave that amp to a friend who likes tube amps! Interestingly, I later read a review of the amp online, where the reviewer used an iPod with MP3 tracks as his source. The reviewer made detailed assessments of the amp's sound, just using the iPod's internal DAC, and with compressed audio. His comments went to the level of matching the amp to specific headphone models!

Still, it's only logical that introducing any component into the audio stream can only degrade the sound. No tube is going to "improve" the sound by introducing distortion, but the amp did manage to receive a favorable review by the reviewer; he noted the distortion, but appreciated the effect. That amp intrigued me for a few weeks, but I realized I was only fooling myself thinking it could sound better. However, the experience has made me appreciate how good my iPhone's DAC sounds all by itself!

Points: since I could hear differences between tube vs. sans tube, I must have some ability to judge sound at a level similar to the reviewer. If the reviewer is grading tube amps through headphones, the iPod playing MP3s must be a pretty clean source. Considering the noise and vibration-induced environment of a moving vehicle, what are the chances I, you, or anyone else could identify the same subtle nuances in a car, as compared to listing through headphones in a quiet room?

If I listened to studio headphones while driving the car, maybe there would be a better argument. I don't mind spending thousands on audio equipment (would much prefer hundreds), but it has to produce perceivable, valid (audible) results to make it worth the money. Like anything, spending money on stuff is fine if you appreciate it, and people appreciate things for different reasons. I appreciated that little tube amp because of its warm glow in a dark room. You may appreciate an external DAC because you know how it works. I appreciate the stereo in my car because it makes music that sounds very close to a live show. And that's enough! But if I get bored and decide to do something crazy, DAC is on my list.

AA wrote:

Well, that's all good if it works for you. I really don't listen to headphones much anymore, except to verify a good audio source - if it sounds good through the phones, it's good enough to amplify for loudspeakers, imo. The MDRs sound great on my iPhone without external DAC. My reference for comparison is listening to quite a bit of live music. I've developed an ear for live and pro audio sound at these events, and so I know what to listen for in recorded tracks.

Worth noting, I bought a single-ended triode headphone amp (12AU7 tube) and noticed a drop in quality compared to listening direct from the output of the iPhone. In other words, I perceived even-order distortion introduced by the amp and didn't like it. Then I gave that amp to a friend who likes tube amps! Interestingly, I later read a review of the amp online, where the reviewer used an iPod with MP3 tracks as his source. The reviewer made detailed assessments of the amp's sound, just using the iPod's internal DAC, and with compressed audio. His comments went to the level of matching the amp to specific headphone models!

Still, it's only logical that introducing any component into the audio stream can only degrade the sound. No tube is going to "improve" the sound by introducing distortion, but the amp did manage to receive a favorable review by the reviewer; he noted the distortion, but appreciated the effect. That amp intrigued me for a few weeks, but I realized I was only fooling myself thinking it could sound better. However, the experience has made me appreciate how good my iPhone's DAC sounds all by itself!

Points: since I could hear differences between tube vs. sans tube, I must have some ability to judge sound at a level similar to the reviewer. If the reviewer is grading tube amps through headphones, the iPod playing MP3s must be a pretty clean source. Considering the noise and vibration-induced environment of a moving vehicle, what are the chances I, you, or anyone else could identify the same subtle nuances in a car, as compared to listing through headphones in a quiet room?

If I listened to studio headphones while driving the car, maybe there would be a better argument. I don't mind spending thousands on audio equipment (would much prefer hundreds), but it has to produce perceivable, valid (audible) results to make it worth the money. Like anything, spending money on stuff is fine if you appreciate it, and people appreciate things for different reasons. I appreciated that little tube amp because of its warm glow in a dark room. You may appreciate an external DAC because you know how it works. I appreciate the stereo in my car because it makes music that sounds very close to a live show. And that's enough! But if I get bored and decide to do something crazy, DAC is on my list.

Part of it might be my hatred for sub distortion. Seems like going from my 18" Velodyne, has made me hate almost every other sub setup, including my own, which most people think is amazing, which is funny.

Using the iPad headphone out, the highs were actually pretty clear, but the lows and the sub wasn't clean at all for my ears. it's weird that my ears pick up distortion from subs automatically moreso than treble, probably because Iv'e been exposed to crappy treble systems all my life, and it doesn't bother me if there's no bass and the sound sucks, but if the sub is there, then distortion is present, it's like a hammer to my skull, and I'd rather have no sub than one with a lot of distortion, ESPECIALLY on rock/metal music

But, seeing that I think you have a small 8 inch sub pushing 200 watts, that would really really help with tightening up that bass, along with the fact that I'm pretty sure you have a line out kit for the iPhone. The amplification is actually much worse in the iPhone than the DAC itself, so you have much better quality with a line out kit using the USB cable bottom part of the phone than the headphone jack, something which is akin to gutting an airbox for gains from a "Free mod"

Sloppy drivers really piss me off, to no end. I'm very glad the fact my Alpines actually sound pretty clean for the price I got them. I love paper woofers.

Mattwa wrote:

You lost me at DAC...LOL.

You are the audio guy, I'm the mechanical guy. All is well.

Hey, I may not be a NASCAR engine rebuilder, but..I'd like to think I'm pretty good at mechanical for it being a passing hobby of mine :3

I didn't mean you were BAD at it, not at all. I'm not "bad" at sound systems either, but it's not my main interest.

Mattwa wrote:

I didn't mean you were BAD at it, not at all. I'm not "bad" at sound systems either, but it's not my main interest.

Funny thing is, there is a much greater chance in me being a mechanical engineer than a speaker engineer, even though I'd rather engineer speakers than engine heads.

Just got one of these in a trade for an old video card.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA0ZA09E9062
Now I just need an amp.... Will post pics soon.

Has anyone mounted an amplifier under the rear seat successfully?

Without doing any mockup, it looks like there is a fair amount of room under the rear seat, especially to the rear of the fuse/relay boxes. I just wasn't sure how much depth/height there is available under the seat itself in that area.

Electrically it seems like an ideal location given its proximity to the battery, etc.

Thanks,
Al

tried it with an alpine 1000 watt amp it was small and it was a no go for the seat to sit properly

joshuadalegrimes wrote:

tried it with an alpine 1000 watt amp it was small and it was a no go for the seat to sit properly

Heh, "1000 watt amp" sounds pretty gigantic in my case

I've got a Kenwood amplifier KAC-829, which is a 100W x 2 amplifier that I was thinking about mounting in this location. I haven't mocked it up yet, but was curious if anyone else has installed a similarly sized (thermal and dimensional needs) amplifier under the rear seat without any trouble fitting it or dealing with any overheating.

Thanks
Al

alpine mrp-1000
15"W x 2-7/16"H x 9-9/16"D
at less than 3 inches tall it is quite small. it fit in just fine but the height is what kept the seat from goin down like it is sposed to

edit: just looked up the dimensions on your amp
13-1/4"W x 2-5/16"H x 9-7/8"D
a hair shorter may get it but doubt it. good luck if it does pics pics and more pics lol

Al I was very happy mounting my amp to the trunk-side of the rear seat upright cross braces (whatever you really call those things). Easy to snake the wire to the battery right down, don't need to worry about heat or putting the rear seat back in properly. There isn't a lot of space under there!

Overheating would be a prime issue. It could be done, but you'd need to route ducts and cooling fans for ventilation. Maybe through the bottom of the car. A bit of work, but a neat idea.

I have a JL Audio Cleansweep processor thats relatively small (9.72" L x 4.37" W x 1.54" H). It was originally under the back seat but even at 1.54" tall laying flat, it had to be set perfectly for the seat to fit properly. Now its mounted to the "trunk-side of the rear seat upright cross braces" as Deekster called them and its out of the way of my amp and sub. Those braces work very well for Audio equipment mounting and make it very easy to hide any wires!

Ive had 4 golf bags in my trunk easily without having to make contact with any of the audio equipment.

Thanks. I went ahead and used the "cross brace" to mount the amplifier. I agree that it is a pretty ideal location for a rear mounted amplifier with proximity to power and speaker cabling.

I was wondering if someone could tell me how I can get my speaker wire from behind the radio down to the floor board, without dismantling the whole dashboard, so I can run it into the trunk.. Thanks.

Denton_NOLATX wrote:

I was wondering if someone could tell me how I can get my speaker wire from behind the radio down to the floor board, without dismantling the whole dashboard, so I can run it into the trunk.. Thanks.

I went from the back of the radio over the glove box and under the passenger side edging/kickplate/sill to the back seat, then up under the rear seat back. Just make sure it won't get pinched under the rear seat cushion. Tape it into place so it won't move when somebody lifts up the cushion.

Pull the dash out, pop off the upper piece of the door sill trim, unscrew the lower piece and pull it out. You will have a nice path to run everything along side the stock wiring. You can even fit it in the stock tie downs. Run it under the back seat and along the stock wiring all the way back to wherever you want (I have mine following the stock antenna).

Im looking at getting a new sub/box/amp setup.
Currently thinking of getting this 8" JL Audio setup
http://www.crutchfield.com/p_13693133/JL-Audio-CP108LG-W3v3.html?tp=112

I was originally looking for a sealed box but i see they dont make an "engineered" setup sealed for 8" JL subs. Is this because its not necessary? My understanding is that ported boxes have lower sound and more output. Im not really looking for more lows or louder bass, but clean sound and tight bass that will work for a range of music types.
Maybe the 8" will do that even with a ported box, idk.
Currently have 2 kicker 10's but i have them turned down to like 20% because i just dont listen to the same stuff i used to, or at least not at the same level. They will be for sale here shortly ($100) but im not shipping them.
Advice?
Thanks,
Matt

Generally speaking, an 8" in a small-medium sized ported enclosure will play pretty loudly, but won't have the deep bottom end you get with multiple 10"s in a larger box. However, the same 8" driver in a same-size sealed box will play lower, just not as loud. In a bigger box, it will play even deeper, though with limited SPL output. I lived happily with an 8" kicker L7 in a rather large sealed box + 200W for many years. Ask matt270avian if he feels this set-up is loud and low enough, as he now owns the set-up.

The reason JL puts their 8W3 in a medium vented box is it's a good balance between SPL and SQ. They refer to this as a "B" alignment. But JL is the first to admit there are several alignments for any subwoofer. A larger sealed enclosure is called and "A" box, or a purist alignment. "A" boxes are not loud, especially with 8"s, but they are accurate because they have the best transient response. Some refer to this as "tight" or "quick" bass. It's misleading though, because without the SPL, it's not as "punchy", which some other people also perceive as "tight" and "quick".

The smaller the box, the closer it will be to "C" & "D" alignments, or the more boomy the will sound. Basically the louder it will be and the less deep bass information it will create. Venting the enclosure contributes to the boominess in very small boxes. However small boxes can take a lot of power and so create some very loud midbass, which some people find appealing.

To sum up: "A" box = cleanest, not very loud; "B" box = good balance of clarity + SPL; "C" box = boomy, high SPL; "D" box = very peaky and loud, not musical. And of course there are A-, B+, and C- alignments, etc.

I say try the 8W3 in the ported box JL designed. If you aren't getting the low notes you like, buy an extra 8W3 raw driver and build a dual 8" sealed system. Then you get the purity of an A box with the SPL of a B. Currently I'm designing a system using two 8"s in a sealed box to replace my previous single 8". Good luck.

PS - JL makes a 6W3 (a 6 1/2" sub) which would probably sound awesome in a set of 2 or 3 up in a sealed box. Not going to hear the extreme lows, but clean and louder than you'd expect from a small box!

PPS - there is also the option of using an 8W7 in a small sealed box. This one gives you all the SPL and clean, deep bass you would want if fed enough power. Think of the W7 as an 8" sub that sounds more like many low-medium end 12"s on the market. It costs more, but the space savings is worth it to some.

AA wrote:

Ask matt270avian if he feels this set-up is loud and low enough, as he now owns the set-up.

I like it a lot, but it doesn't have a crazy amount of kick. You can definitely feel it but it won't shake anything loose. Really nice if you like quality but there are better options if you just want the wubs. The only change I would make is a new amp and some modifications to AA's box (it doesn't fit well under my new rear speakers). It really is nice for what it is though.

AA, do you still have the cad file for the box?

AA wrote:

Currently I'm designing a system using two 8"s in a sealed box to replace my previous single 8".

How is that going, by the way?

Thank you for the detailed info. Ill prob pull the trigger on the JL 8 in the ported box.
Need to look up the specs on my current Memphis amp to see if it can power that sub safely. (think its a 300RMS 2 channel)

Quote :

AA, do you still have the cad file for the box?

I might, but it was done in an old software package that I no longer own. I'd have to go digging.

Quote :

How is that going, by the way?

I dynomatted the trunk and cut out the MDF baffle for the subs, designed the amp rack in CAD, purchased some cooling fans. Been busy with work and other stuff. Maybe this summer.