Dying Issue...

Well if it isn't one riv for me it's another.

My moms 1990 Riv is having a dying issue. It will start up fine and very quickly and 99% of the time it will run for 10-15 minutes then all of a sudden it will sputter then die. As it dies there is a burst of air that comes out of the throttle body.

After it dies I try to start it again and it will start then almost immediatly die. After two or three tries it catches again and keeps running then the process starts all over.

There are no codes during this either.

Thanks

Could be a crank or cam sensor. I forget what the '90 has. We had issues with our '86 when it got hot and it ended up being the control module (the thing under the coil packs) overheating.

deekster_caddy wrote:

Could be a crank or cam sensor. I forget what the '90 has. We had issues with our '86 when it got hot and it ended up being the control module (the thing under the coil packs) overheating.

The 1990 model has both. Trust me, I have replaced both on mine. To me, it sounds kinda like the coil module. My 1992 Olds 88 had the same problem. It turned out to be just that. Be sure though, to clean all of the corrosion off the mounting plate to ensure the connection. ( the plate is the ground on these.) This should fix the problem. Good luck!

Yeah, because when the car is running it seems to be running very well. Alittle rough but it does probably need a tune up on it as well.

Is there a way to test the coil module? It is an expensive part to just take a guess on. I have a 95 Riv but the part numbers show to be different so I assume I can't try the one off of that motor.

I do know when I did a scan on the car for codes there are no current codes but it did have two history codes.

Code #1 was 42 which is a malfunction in the Electronic Spark Timing (EST) system

Code #2 if I remember correctly was code 34 and had to do with MAF/MAP reading to low.

Well went and replaced the coil module. Seemed to help how it drove and overall idle however it did not seem to fix the dying issue.

I took it out for a test drive and it drove/ran a ton better than it did before. I get it back home, let it sit and idle in the driveway for about 10-15 minutes and it would die. Best way I know how to describe it dying is like when a car runs out of gas, just a few up and downs of the idle then dead.

No codes now, none in the history either.

If you can reach the crank sensor wiring, one thing you can do is run the car until it quits then unplug the sucker and test for continuity with an ohmmeter. If you don't have continuity (very low resistance) then it is bad. I do not know the value (what resistance in ohms) the ohmmeter should show for a 'good' sensor but maybe someone else does.

The only problem with this is the crank sensor is usually darn near unreachable for this kind of test, as it's behind the harmonic balancer. Maybe there is a way to check is somewhere else on the wiring harness but I have never done that. So Be Very Careful not to get cut or burned.

Albertj

Oh ok, I will see what I can find on the crank sensor.

However my scanner still shows nothing but I did run the onboard diagnostic by holding down the off and Temp Up button at the same time. Now I got some codes.

b552H
r033H
r041C
r042C
r061C

I found some codes meaning on another site but they are not specific to the Riviera but here they are.

33 Mass air flow (MAF) sensor - signal voltage or frequency
is high during engine idle
Manifold absolute pressure (MAP) sensor - signal
voltage is high during engine idle (Note: Engine misfire
or unstable idle may cause this code)

41 Cam sensor (CAM) failure
Cylinder select error
Tach input error - no reference pulses during engine run
Electronic spark timing (EST) circuit - open or shorted
to ground during engine run
Direct ignition system (DIS) fault - bypass circuit open
or shorted to ground during engine run
Ignition system fault - loss of 1X Reference Pulse signal
Retrieving ECM Codes

42 Electronic spark timing (EST) circuit - open or shorted
Direct ignition system (DIS) fault - bypass circuit open
or shorted to ground during engine run
Fuel cutoff relay circuit - open or shorted to ground

61 Oxygen sensor signal fault or port throttle system fault
or on-board cruise control fault (vent solenoid circuit)
Air Conditioner (A/C) system performance problems

Thanks,
Mike

OK mike do you get the hint about code 42?

Albertj

Well to a point I do but I feel my knowledge on these cars holds be back on quickly diagnosing these issues.

The fuelcutoff relay makes sense to me because it dies like is runs out of fuel but I just don't understand why it can run for so long then all of a sudden decide to quit about the same time each time.

Thanks

I'm strongly suspecting the fuel pump has gone bad at this point. It wouldn't hurt to replace a 20 yr old fuel pump.

Sorry I'm making you throw parts at the problem! I hate fixing cars this way!

deekster_caddy wrote:

I'm strongly suspecting the fuel pump has gone bad at this point. It wouldn't hurt to replace a 20 yr old fuel pump.

Sorry I'm making you throw parts at the problem! I hate fixing cars this way!

lol, I hate it too. Thats why I probably try to put in more research time than actual work time to try and guess as correctly as possible. Also why I ask the people who have worked around these cars more than I have.

I hear the fuel pump run but there are times from the rear of the car there is a loud running noise that is very noticable and alot louder than the small hum of the pump during initial startup.

The louder noise from the rear during start up or when you just turn key on and wait and listen will be the level ride compressor.
At least on my car that's what I hear.

Rickw is right - the '90 has a levelling suspension in the rear. That' compressor is occasional and a bit noisy.

Rickw wrote:

The louder noise from the rear during start up or when you just turn key on and wait and listen will be the level ride compressor.
At least on my car that's what I hear.

deekster_caddy wrote:

Rickw is right - the '90 has a levelling suspension in the rear. That' compressor is occasional and a bit noisy.

Oh ok, that explains it better. It does sound more like an air compressor going when it does make noise. Glad it isn't something else I have to hunt down lol.

Does anyone know if the fuel pump can be "commanded" on on the '90 RIv using a Tech II?

Albertj

Rickw wrote:

The louder noise from the rear during start up or when you just turn key on and wait and listen will be the level ride compressor.
At least on my car that's what I hear.

100% correct on this one.. The fuel pump in these cars are so quiet, I cant hear mine even when the load leveling system isnt running. But, my car runs out fine.

albertj wrote:

Does anyone know if the fuel pump can be "commanded" on on the '90 RIv using a Tech II?

Albertj

I thought the tech II was obd-II only

It is.
And the TECH 1 can not command the fuel pump to turn on.

What's your fuel pressure like?
I had a stalling problem with my '92 Park Ave, and it turned out to be the pressure regulator. A cheap, easy fix.

On all of these cars I've owned I have never been able to hear the pump run.

Sweepspear wrote:

What's your fuel pressure like?
I had a stalling problem with my '92 Park Ave, and it turned out to be the pressure regulator. A cheap, easy fix.

On all of these cars I've owned I have never been able to hear the pump run.

I can typically hear the fuel pump run when I turn the key on right before starting the car. It's just a small hum from the back.

The car always starts pretty good in the morning or after sitting awhile. The dying is just after it has been running for awhile.

EDIT: I did do a fuel pressure test. With just the key on the pressure holds at 40psi and while running it is at 36 psi.

If my environment is quiet enough I can hear the fuel pump pressurize teh system on start-up... but that's about it. It's more of a whirr and a hiss than a compressor buzz like the air ride gadget, probably in part because the fuel pump is a very different beast. These in-tank pumps are usually interlocking gears that force fluid through and can be regulated to maintain a specific pressure.

One issue with these fuel pumps - they depend on being immersed in the gasoline for proper cooling. That is, the fuel flowing through them does a lot to keep them cool but is not really enough to get all the service life out. In plain English, in practice in the Riv you really should not consistently run the car's fuel level below a quarter tank. If you do, (Doug, a mechanic at the local GM dealer says) you will "cook" the pump over time. (He did not say "might" becuase he's replaced so many of them for that reason.)

Albertj

Yeah, well I hear the pump and the air ride. I can hear the pump running if I go to the trunk and listen towards the back of it.

I Just had the car running for close to 30 minutes. Took it around the neighborhood, starts, stops and anything in between. Not a bit of a problem. Get home, sit it in the driveway idling and a few minutes later it died.

I seem to notice that when the heater is on my A/C compressor is cycling on and off. This seems to have a big effect on the motor as it kicks on to off or off to on.

When the HVAC control is in "Auto" mode and set to almost any temperature, the A/C will run. If it is hot out it runs to cool the air. If it is cool out it runs to control the humidity by running just enough to cause condensation on the condensor. Wha-la, that cuts the humidity a good bit in the passenger compartment.

So back to your problem: did you test the crank sensor to see if it's working? You have to use a multimeter set to ohms. The resistance you get in the reading should be low. IF the resistance is high your crank sensor is crapped out. Remember that crank sensors tend to fail 'bad warm.' So you drive the car, park in driveway, it dies, then you pull the plug on the crank sensor and using those little needle probles connect to the sensor and read the resistance on the meter.

Point is that we can talk about this stuff for a long while, and I realize this probme has persistend for some time and we have not fixed it yet. But in order to make progress, I think you'll have to do some more work and given the track record of the folks who are chiming in on this problem it's a good bet that continuing to take their suggestions won't hurt. Meaning that at smoe point, bite the bullet and test those sensors.

By the way - with an intermittent crank sensor, when the crank sensor fails the ECU cuts off the fuel, idea being that something catastrophic must have happened to seize up the engine and so pumping more fuel won't be any help.


Albertj

The A/C compressor will cycle on and off with the heater on if outside temp is above 41*. This is normal.
It should not have a BIG effect on the way the engine is running though.

As far as the engine dying after idling for 15 min. or so, I'm stumped.
Considering everything you've already replaced.
Can't remember, have you pulled the Idle Air Control Valve and cleaned or tested it yet?

I had a car some time ago, I think it was a '74 Nissan, that had a sensor in the drivers seat that would cut the car off if you left it idling and no one was in the seat. Most poeple defeated it by unplugging it. I am pretty sure the Rivs never had such a sensor except maybe the '74 with the drivers ignition seat belt interlock.

Rick points out to think about what you've alrady replaced. Also think about what you were recommeded to test and decided not to bother with for one or another reason.

Albertj