Cam/Rockers or Intercooler - Poll.

Basically i noticed the other day that my oil pan gasket is leaking , so i was checking it out and what not and then i noticed that my lim is seeping coolant....

Ok so i know me , and i know if i'm taking the top end apart i'll wanna upgrade. And it just so happens i found a really good deal on an intercooler (SS) and i have a bonus coming to me this week... So should i go for it? I'm ok financially right now , got a decent tax return coming too so i'm not too strapped for cash , but i'd like to hear from dreww or ewolfe how they feel about the intercooler and how hard it was to install, if streetabilty has changed etc. Also i have the rockers just sitting here , so i'm thinking i might sell them and go IC so as to not feel so bad about spending money on the intercooler...

Basically i want to know what you guys would do because i don't wanna wonder what if , but at the same time i don't know if its worth a weeks pay....

I say just stick to the original plan, do the rockers. Or get the IC and use in addition to rockers, but don't just do IC with no breathing mods. Kind of defeats the purpose of going fast. You'll make lots of low-end torque using only an IC, but you already have lots of low-end torque right now. Better to push some of it up towards 4-5k RPM - where you really need it.

My LIM is seeping, too. I've got ewolfe's OEM blower to port & polish and put on my car. If you want to wait until I'm done (prob a month or two) I'll sell you my old blower as a core to P&P yourself.

Are you up for all the modifications necessary for the intercooler install and the downtime of the car in order to accomplish it. ???

If so, go for it and install the rockers too. You need the extra flow the rockers provide considering all the mod's you already have done.

If not, just replace the gaskets and install rockers and save money for other things.

There's not much point in doing the IC if you aren't improving the airflow somewhere. Otherwise you are just playing with fire (boost stacking) anyway. I agree about the LIM and I'm sure mine are original, I am holding out to replace them until I can afford or come across a Gen V or IC for the right price... Unfortunately the right price is 0 right now... and that's just not happening so far. Someday something will fall into my lap.

Yeah.... the more i think about it. If anything comes up and i can't install the IC in a timely manner i might be kinda screwed.


Ok i think i've decided to just do the gaskets. Thanks for your input guys!

TonySmooth89 wrote:

Yeah.... the more i think about it. If anything comes up and i can't install the IC in a timely manner i might be kinda screwed.


Ok i think i've decided to just do the gaskets. Thanks for your input guys!

I see you've made your decision - I agree that intercooling alone is kinda pointless, especially with an SS kit.

If you plan to go intercooled in the future though, I would recommend you get an machined LIM so you dont have to replace it later when you intercool like i did. You can get a machined replacement and just send the unmachined core back for little downtime.

dreww wrote:

TonySmooth89 wrote:

Yeah.... the more i think about it. If anything comes up and i can't install the IC in a timely manner i might be kinda screwed.


Ok i think i've decided to just do the gaskets. Thanks for your input guys!

I see you've made your decision - I agree that intercooling alone is kinda pointless, especially with an SS kit.

If you plan to go intercooled in the future though, I would recommend you get an machined LIM so you dont have to replace it later when you intercool like i did. You can get a machined replacement and just send the unmachined core back for little downtime.

("Machining" your own LIM to fit the IC opening or GenV opening is very easy if you have the LIM off the car. It's been done many times with more than satisfactory results with combinations of sawzalls and dremels)

So....today i got in touch with an old good friend of mine...and apparently he has access to a shop with all kinds of equipment , and he'd gladly help with an intercooler install....


Tempting tempting tempting...

Yeah i'm buying the intercooler and keeping the rockers too...

And then no more mods.....until i feel like my car is slow again...

Well i guess someone bought the intercooler before i could make a payment...


Well that makes the decision easier...

My next mod is one of 2 things...

-----Intercooler

-----Cam/rockers/rods/springs

I've been arguing with my self about this, and would like some opinions....
The intercooler is roughly 50hp bolt on, and would force me and the body guys at the shop to fab up a hood that I could "mass" produce

The cam setup I've been contemplating would get me into the high 12 secs in the 1/4.

I'm not sure what to do. In Scott's world, I would do both at the same time. Unfortunately, Scott's budget doesn't allow him to do so. With the 75mm throttle body and MAF waitin to be installed along with a program, I'm not sure which route to take..........

personally I'd go for the custom cam first the stock one can only take so much horsepower before it breaks and fails (likewise with the harmonic balancer so if I were you I'd go for the cam first and possibly a harmonic balancer upgrade down the road (there are horror stories of folks that did nothing to those two components and souped up everything else and yet still managed to destroy one or both components due to them being unable to handle all the xtra power

abaddon wrote:The intercooler is roughly 50hp bolt on
really? how does it do that? i can guess but please explain

This seems to be a reoccurring question. There's answers on here somewhere but I'd say do the cam first. Intercooler's great but the motor needs to be able to flow if you want the top end power. Intercooler and no flow will make the car a burnout queen.

I wouldn't put money on the high twelves unless you're talkin about a big dog cam & head setup or some giggle gas added to the mix. I don't know what else you got in that girl but a milder cam (< stage 3) isn't getting you into twelves alone.

robotennis61 wrote:

abaddon wrote:The intercooler is roughly 50hp bolt on
really? how does it do that? i can guess but please explain

The intercooler lowers you AIT by about 120 degrees, depending on what size core you go. It works exactly like a turbo intercooler with it's own water-to-air exchange mounted in front of the car....

turtleman wrote:

This seems to be a reoccurring question. There's answers on here somewhere but I'd say do the cam first. Intercooler's great but the motor needs to be able to flow if you want the top end power. Intercooler and no flow will make the car a burnout queen.

I wouldn't put money on the high twelves unless you're talkin about a big dog cam & head setup or some giggle gas added to the mix. I don't know what else you got in that girl but a milder cam (< stage 3) isn't getting you into twelves alone.

No, the cam isn't going to be anything less than "stage 3" ...I'm planning on going fast, not sounding fast. I'm currently running a 3.2" pulley, and will probably go smaller (they cheap). Money wise, both mods are roughly around the same price.....I was thinkin more with the cam setup.

Thanks for the heads up on the balancer!

Please add the year of your car to your sig.

Intercooler allows you to run a smaller pulley at cooler temperatures, but by itself does not add any hp.

Personally I think once you put in a nice cam, you won't need an IC for a while, depending on the build you are after. An S1X or XP cam with a Gen V or ported Gen 3 will take you a long way into the low 13s and maybe a high 12. And if you go that big... you have a trans already built up, right?

Intercooler can add HP by itself by adding low-end torque though boost. But I would not do it. Like Codith said, it makes for a burn-out queen. It doesn't make a lot of sense, except to decrease knock. IC alone is not the best HP for the buck.

For the money (and for the sake of logic), breathing mods like rockers or cam gets you HP and lets you actually use that power - higher up. Our cars have plenty of torque down low already. Make the car faster by shifting torque into the upper RPMs. Let the engine flow - don't believe that smaller pulleys always = more power (they don't).

How are you running a 3.2" SC pulley without a cam, rockers, or IC?!!

AA wrote:

Intercooler can add HP by itself by adding low-end torque though boost. But I would not do it. Like Codith said, it makes for a burn-out queen. It doesn't make a lot of sense, except to decrease knock. IC alone is not the best HP for the buck.

For the money (and for the sake of logic), breathing mods like rockers or cam gets you HP and lets you actually use that power - higher up. Our cars have plenty of torque down low already. Make the car faster by shifting torque into the upper RPMs. Let the engine flow - don't believe that smaller pulleys always = more power (they don't).

How are you running a 3.2" SC pulley without a cam, rockers, or IC?!!

[opinion] Easy. The PCM detunes to compensate -- until the cam, rockers and intercooler (and cool plugs) go in and the PCM is tuned to match....

Albertj

I hear you, Albert. Interesting how increasing boost can have the same effect as using 87 octane.

The way our Rivs are set up you'd get some kick from a smaller pulley alone, but not much before the detuning starts. I think the 'head rush' would be that under many driving conditions, you'd feel more boost. Push the car, though, and the compensation (KR) starts immediately.

Albertj

albertj wrote:

AA wrote:

Intercooler can add HP by itself by adding low-end torque though boost. But I would not do it. Like Codith said, it makes for a burn-out queen. It doesn't make a lot of sense, except to decrease knock. IC alone is not the best HP for the buck.

For the money (and for the sake of logic), breathing mods like rockers or cam gets you HP and lets you actually use that power - higher up. Our cars have plenty of torque down low already. Make the car faster by shifting torque into the upper RPMs. Let the engine flow - don't believe that smaller pulleys always = more power (they don't).

How are you running a 3.2" SC pulley without a cam, rockers, or IC?!!

[opinion] Easy. The PCM detunes to compensate -- until the cam, rockers and intercooler (and cool plugs) go in and the PCM is tuned to match....

Albertj

With my CAI setup, Autolite 104's, Exhaust, Ignition, etc, I was able to achieve a max of only 2 degrees of KR at WOT with a 90 degree outside temperature (92 minimum octane fuel). When it's around 60 degrees or less outside I get some spark advance. Yes, the PCM compensates for knock, but can only go so far....like 15 degrees I think. LOL when I first put the pulley on, I had almost nothing done to the engine. I went out for a spin with the Tech2 hooked up....hammered the throttle....15 degrees KR and the noise that resulted was less than desired, which forced me to make all the changes (I wasn't about to take the pulley off).

I agree with the burn-out queen. The low end torque on this thing is insane. Anything more than 1/4 throttle from a stop without easing into it smokes the tires. Soooooooo, CAM SETUP IT IS!!!! Guess I needed to hear more opinions of what I was already thinkin

P.S. I'm not planning on driving this every day once I get all this done...the cam profile alone would be too much to ride in all day.

The illusion is caused from building boost earlier. But once you get to the threshold of boost stacking, the engine falls flat. So you don't really gain anything. Throttle response is shifted lower, but the amount of pedal you have is the same - it makes the response more elastic toward WOT.

Allowing the engine to breath more, you build boost earlier, but you also get a more extended throttle response up top. It's more linear in delivering power/torque.

Quote :

With my CAI setup, Autolite 104's, Exhaust, Ignition, etc, I was able to achieve a max of only 2 degrees of KR at WOT with a 90 degree outside temperature (92 minimum octane fuel).

Do yourself a favor and try 3 things:

• scan for KR at WOT at 95-100 after it shifts into 3rd gear. You'll see more than 2º KR, probably closer to 12º KR. It isn't likely your plugs, exhaust, and ignition mods will allow you to run a 3.2".

• scan for KR from a rolling 60 MPH. Floor the gas as if you were overtaking another vehicle. See what kind of KR numbers you get.

• scan while TCC is locked in OD at 55 MPH cruise. Accelerate firmly while keeping TC lock-up. Listen for ping-ping-ping...

Also, you know there is a "bad gas" table that the PCM can activate if subject to severe KR (like the 15º you experienced). When it switches over, all the base timing values are retarded, so you can run WOT all day and not get much knock. This is a defense mechanism in case someone fills the tank with 87 and heads out for a spirited driving adventure. But a 3.2" pulley on a stock engine would cause the same result (lots of knock).

I know every car is different, but I've ran pulleys as small as 3.1", and scanned WOT fine up through 2nd gear, but at higher speeds and heavy load conditions, it's a different story. Would hate to see you blow your engine - it's happened to others in the quest for high boost w/ minimal mods.

lol the sound of spark knock is un-mistakable. I have none...under ANY driving conditions. Once I got all the "stuff" put on, filled it up with 94 octane fuel, reset the fuel trim tables, and beat the sh*t out of it, all I get is 2 degrees KR with maybe a "spike" to 4 or 5 briefly. I tested this setup for about 2 weeks. Once I was satisfied, I stopped testing. Now, if I put 87 octane fuel in it, forget it.....
Now and again (when I can afford it) I like to put 110 in it. Definitely a difference as the PCM can advance the timing.....lower end it makes no difference, but above 75mph it's noticeable.

I wouldn't mind blowing my engine, gives me an excuse to put the together the Gen V I have in the garage....but it's been roughly 2 years now with nill probs

You don't hear any ping if the PCM has switched the timing tables - you just get slower. Scan for timing advance at WOT, that will tell you something.

Is the 110 octane unleaded? If not, your O2 sensor might need replacing.