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 Big Block vs. Small Block V8

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Eldo
Ironclad-454
ibmoses
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DEMonte1997
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L67
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PostSubject: Re: Big Block vs. Small Block V8   Big Block vs. Small Block V8 - Page 2 EmptyWed Dec 23, 2009 4:21 pm

All true, and great race cars, but how many ZL1s were produced?

Maybe for drag racing big blocks make more sense, but in road, GT, and NASCAR competition, they use SBCs, probably for the better weight distribution. I would imagine the efficiency of SBCs also helps reduce the number of pits.

_________________
'05 GTO 6.0L • 6-spd • 95k miles • 0-60: 4.8s • 16.9 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26

'95 Celica GT 2.2L • 5-spd • 165k miles • 0-60: yes

'98 SC Riviera • 281k miles • 298 HP/370 TQ • 0-60: 5.79s • ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 • 4087 lb • 20.1 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley • AL104 plugs • 180º t-stat • FWI w/K&N • 1.9:1 rockers • OR pushrods • LS6 valve springs • SLP headers • ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts • MaxAir shocks • Addco sway bars • UMI bushings • GM STB • Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s • F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus • SS lines • Brembo slotted discs • DHP tuned • Aeroforce • Hidden Hitch

^^^ SOLD ^^^ frown

'70 Ninety-Eight Holiday Coupe 455cid • 116k miles
^^^ SOLD ^^^ frown
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PostSubject: Re: Big Block vs. Small Block V8   Big Block vs. Small Block V8 - Page 2 EmptyWed Dec 23, 2009 4:22 pm

My mistake memories a lil rusty, sheesh and I'm only 31 lol. The Chevrolet Camaro ZL1 was a COPO (Central Office Production Order) 9560 optioned car produced on a very limited basis.

Conceived by drag racer Dick Harrell, and ordered through Fred Gibb Chevrolet in La Harpe, IL, they were built with the intention of entering NHRA Super Stock drag racing. In order to qualify for these races, a minimum of 50 had to be sold to the public. In all, 69 were actually produced. The option was priced at $4,160.50 (in 1969 US dollars), and was listed as the "HIGH PERFORMANCE UNIT" option. This brought the total price of the car to roughly $7,300; sales were poor and some were sent back to the factory and/or sat on lots for up to a year before being sold with the help of $1,000 rebates from GM.
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DEMonte1997
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PostSubject: Re: Big Block vs. Small Block V8   Big Block vs. Small Block V8 - Page 2 EmptyWed Dec 23, 2009 4:27 pm

COPOs are incredibly badass. I'd kill to just see one of them let alone ride in one or own one.
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PostSubject: Re: Big Block vs. Small Block V8   Big Block vs. Small Block V8 - Page 2 EmptyWed Dec 23, 2009 5:19 pm

Too much talk of Chevy. gripe puke

read
Buick 350 = Small Block.
Buick 400 - 430 - 455 = Big Block.

That's all you need to know.

tongue
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PostSubject: Re: Big Block vs. Small Block V8   Big Block vs. Small Block V8 - Page 2 EmptyWed Dec 23, 2009 6:05 pm

Sweepspear wrote:
Too much talk of Chevy. gripe puke

read
Buick 350 = Small Block.
Buick 400 - 430 - 455 = Big Block.

That's all you need to know.

tongue

Would you rather we talked Ford? rotf
At least with Buick, Chevy, Olds, Pontiac you can say their all cousins. Sorry not trying to offend you Ford fans. But I can only think of 2 nice Fords I have riddin in, a 2009 Shelby GT500, and a 2003 SC SVT with 550 rwhp. The SVT is the closest I have ever come to the performance of a "supercar" it wood shyt on the Shelby. They made those new Shelbys, Challengers and even the new Camaros waay to heavy.
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AA
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PostSubject: Re: Big Block vs. Small Block V8   Big Block vs. Small Block V8 - Page 2 EmptyWed Dec 23, 2009 6:26 pm

I didn't think there was such a thing as a Ford big/small block.

_________________
'05 GTO 6.0L • 6-spd • 95k miles • 0-60: 4.8s • 16.9 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26

'95 Celica GT 2.2L • 5-spd • 165k miles • 0-60: yes

'98 SC Riviera • 281k miles • 298 HP/370 TQ • 0-60: 5.79s • ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 • 4087 lb • 20.1 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley • AL104 plugs • 180º t-stat • FWI w/K&N • 1.9:1 rockers • OR pushrods • LS6 valve springs • SLP headers • ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts • MaxAir shocks • Addco sway bars • UMI bushings • GM STB • Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s • F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus • SS lines • Brembo slotted discs • DHP tuned • Aeroforce • Hidden Hitch

^^^ SOLD ^^^ frown

'70 Ninety-Eight Holiday Coupe 455cid • 116k miles
^^^ SOLD ^^^ frown
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L67
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PostSubject: Re: Big Block vs. Small Block V8   Big Block vs. Small Block V8 - Page 2 EmptyWed Dec 23, 2009 6:41 pm

AA wrote:
I didn't think there was such a thing as a Ford big/small block.

Oh but there is, the terminology just isn't thrown around as much as it is for its GM counterparts.
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PostSubject: Re: Big Block vs. Small Block V8   Big Block vs. Small Block V8 - Page 2 EmptyWed Dec 23, 2009 7:41 pm

AA wrote:
I didn't think there was such a thing as a Ford big/small block.

I didn't think the cylinder heads on a SBC and a BBC would interchange. You guys must be referring to the late model Chevrolet engine cylinder heads being interchangeable.

As far as Pontiac goes, I thought I read recently that the 326, 350, 400, 421, 428 all used the same block.

Interesting thread we got going here.

Bert santa
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PostSubject: Re: Big Block vs. Small Block V8   Big Block vs. Small Block V8 - Page 2 EmptyWed Dec 23, 2009 8:15 pm

ibmoses wrote:
As far as Pontiac goes, I thought I read recently that the 326, 350, 400, 421, 428 all used the same block.

Interesting thread we got going here.

Bert santa

Your exactly right on the Pontiacs, thats an awsome engine block to have. Everytime my brother and I talk about his old 70 Firebird I feel like slapping him for selling it. Soooo much potential in that car. puzzled
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PostSubject: Re: Big Block vs. Small Block V8   Big Block vs. Small Block V8 - Page 2 EmptyWed Dec 23, 2009 9:26 pm

AA wrote:
I didn't think there was such a thing as a Ford big/small block.

According to what I read today, Ford didn't officially use the sb/bb designation, but people use it with Ford engines anyway.
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L67
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PostSubject: Re: Big Block vs. Small Block V8   Big Block vs. Small Block V8 - Page 2 EmptyWed Dec 23, 2009 9:48 pm

Jack the R wrote:
AA wrote:
I didn't think there was such a thing as a Ford big/small block.

According to what I read today, Ford didn't officially use the sb/bb designation, but people use it with Ford engines anyway.

The Blue Oval Boys are more tied up in their Windsor/Cleveland/FE/385 monikers.
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Ironclad-454
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PostSubject: Re: Big Block vs. Small Block V8   Big Block vs. Small Block V8 - Page 2 EmptyWed Dec 23, 2009 10:17 pm

Forgive me for speaking Chevrolet as I am more fluent in it than I am in B.O.P. rolleyes

The differences between a small block and a big block are many and varied so I’ll keep to the basics. As the names imply the Big Block has a Larger Block while the Small Block is of course smaller. In the world of Chevrolet the differences have to do primarily with the cylinder bore spacing. On SBC’s including the new LS(Gen 3/4) that stands at 4.4 in while on the Big Blocks including the W series its 4.84, this means the big block is longer. The BBC is also considerably wider IIRC around 1/2 in wider. The other is deck height, typically measured from the center of the crankshaft main journal to the top of the engine block. ALL PRODUCTION SBC (Gen 1 & 2) have a 9.2in deck height while in the world of Big Blocks there were two factory deck heights. Passenger car blocks stood at 9.6in while Medium duty trucks used a 10.2in block called a tall deck block, so they are taller as well. The valve covers on a Big Block are also strikingly wider than its SBC counterpart and very few parts interchange between the two engine families.

The Gen I SBC was produced in 11 displacements over its more than 40 year run. They were produced in displacements from a measly 262 CID produced in the late 70’s to the Small Block 400. It is still the longest running and most produced engine line in the world.

The BBC as we know it was introduced in 1965 and displaced 396 CID, it replaced the famous 409 as the top engine option in Chevrolet cars. It was expanded to 402 CID in 1970 IIRC although it was still labeled as a 396 in cars and a Big Block 400 in trucks, this later tag has lead to a lot of confusion since there was also a Small Block 400 as well. This is I believe where the modern confusion stems from, in what makes a Small Block and what makes a Big Block. Chevrolet also had 3 different 427's, the first was based of the older W series engine family, the second was the infamous 1963 mystery motor and the last was the Mark IV BBC. Just some interesting factoids for those that care.

Now my limited knowledge of B.O.P engines, if I’m wrong please correct me. The only other GM mark that had dedicated Small and Big Blocks was Buick. Pontiac had one family of V8 engine that could be considered a Big block and Oldsmobile also only had one engine line this one was more accurately considered a Small block. Although the Oldsmobile could be had in two deck heights (9.33 and 10.625) the taller deck engine has been called a Big Block but it’s really just a taller Small Block. As for interchangeability I don’t know since I’ve never had the privilege of owning any of the B.O.P engines.

Oh and if Chevrolet makes you throw up, then Fords will give you siezures lmao


Last edited by Ironclad-454 on Thu Dec 24, 2009 12:47 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Corrected date 402 came out see L67's post below)
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PostSubject: Re: Big Block vs. Small Block V8   Big Block vs. Small Block V8 - Page 2 EmptyWed Dec 23, 2009 10:56 pm

Ironclad's answer is correct, and certainly exhaustive (he obviously wears a 'BowTie"... wink ) As long as I'd already written most of this before he posted, I'll go ahead and put it up.

The simple answer, and the easiest way to tell what you're looking at, is that the heads (and block) of a Big Block Chevy are significantly bigger than those of the Small Block... If you raise the hood of a 454 next to a 350, the valve covers of the 454 are gonna' look almost like a Hemi compared with the mouse motor.

As far as I know, only Chevy had true Small Block & Big Blocks side by side at GM. You can look at a 350 Olds/Pontiac/Buick, and it will look no different externally than the corresponding 455... I believe this is mainly due to what they were looking for as the cars got bigger and/or faster. The Big Block Chevy was an oversquare engine built for HP and higher RPM, with a larger bore and shorter stroke. The rest of the family built lower revving torque motors that were sometimes undersquare, with the stroke longer than the bore.
For example, the 430 in my Wildcat has higher torque at lower RPM than the Chevy 427, but the Chevy has more horsepower...
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PostSubject: Re: Big Block vs. Small Block V8   Big Block vs. Small Block V8 - Page 2 EmptyWed Dec 23, 2009 11:19 pm

Eldo wrote:
Ironclad's answer is correct, and certainly exhaustive (he obviously wears a 'BowTie"... wink )

And I wear it proudly. cool I still have great respect for the other GM marks but bleed Chevy Orange. lol
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PostSubject: Re: Big Block vs. Small Block V8   Big Block vs. Small Block V8 - Page 2 EmptyThu Dec 24, 2009 12:33 am

Correct except for the 396 was enlarged to 402 ci in 1970 not 1968, and was still referred to as a 396 because of all of the marketing Chevy pumped into the SS396 nameplate in the late 60s.
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PostSubject: Re: Big Block vs. Small Block V8   Big Block vs. Small Block V8 - Page 2 EmptyThu Dec 24, 2009 12:48 am

Thanks for the correction L67, I wasn't quite sure if that part was right. I've edited the post to correct that error.
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PostSubject: Re: Big Block vs. Small Block V8   Big Block vs. Small Block V8 - Page 2 EmptyThu Dec 24, 2009 10:46 am

Quote :
Chevrolet also had 3 different 427's, the first was based of the older W series engine family, the second was the infamous 1963 mystery motor and the last was the Mark IV BBC. Just some interesting factoids for those that care.
Don't forget there is a 427 SBC, too! (LS7)

_________________
'05 GTO 6.0L • 6-spd • 95k miles • 0-60: 4.8s • 16.9 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26

'95 Celica GT 2.2L • 5-spd • 165k miles • 0-60: yes

'98 SC Riviera • 281k miles • 298 HP/370 TQ • 0-60: 5.79s • ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 • 4087 lb • 20.1 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley • AL104 plugs • 180º t-stat • FWI w/K&N • 1.9:1 rockers • OR pushrods • LS6 valve springs • SLP headers • ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts • MaxAir shocks • Addco sway bars • UMI bushings • GM STB • Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s • F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus • SS lines • Brembo slotted discs • DHP tuned • Aeroforce • Hidden Hitch

^^^ SOLD ^^^ frown

'70 Ninety-Eight Holiday Coupe 455cid • 116k miles
^^^ SOLD ^^^ frown
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http://www.cardomain.com/ride/657082/4
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PostSubject: Re: Big Block vs. Small Block V8   Big Block vs. Small Block V8 - Page 2 EmptyThu Dec 24, 2009 2:54 pm

AA wrote:
Quote :
Chevrolet also had 3 different 427's, the first was based of the older W series engine family, the second was the infamous 1963 mystery motor and the last was the Mark IV BBC. Just some interesting factoids for those that care.
Don't forget there is a 427 SBC, too! (LS7)

You are correct sir. I was refering to Big Blocks, but there is a 427 Small Block however the LS7 is actually 428 cid but thats a Ford number, and we Chevy nuts would have none of that, lol.
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PostSubject: Re: Big Block vs. Small Block V8   Big Block vs. Small Block V8 - Page 2 EmptyThu Dec 24, 2009 4:06 pm

[/quote]You are correct sir. I was refering to Big Blocks, but there is a 427 Small Block however the LS7 is actually 428 cid but thats a Ford number, and we Chevy nuts would have none of that, lol.[/quote]

Well "Pontiac" did make a 428 not just Ford. In 1967 the 421 was bored to 4 1⁄8 in (104.8 mm), increasing its displacement to 427.6 cu in (7.007 L). The 428 had the same 4.00" stroke as the 421, and was produced from 1967 to 1969. This engine produced 370 horsepower, or 390 in H.O. form. The Crankshaft in the 428 also had a N cast on them as opposed to the 421's armasteel. In 1969, Pontiac also used a revised Crankshaft out of a Pearlitic Malleable Iron although it still used the" N" i.d. cast letter. This new material had stronger alloys in the iron. All 428 engines were factory install in large cars only. However, there were a few dealers that would install a 428 in a customers GTO or Firebird for higher power levels.


I realize its not a "Chevy" BB its a Pontiac engine, but they are both off shoots of GM who is technically the actual competition for Ford. smoke
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PostSubject: Re: Big Block vs. Small Block V8   Big Block vs. Small Block V8 - Page 2 EmptyThu Dec 24, 2009 4:32 pm

Lets see.
I had a 62 SD421 in a Catalina(very rare car indeed)
Two 67 GTO's with the 400 one auto one 4 speed.
A 65 2+2 Catalina with a 421 4 speed
And a 69 RAIV in a Judge, auto
I always loved the Ponchos. 3gears

Sorry if it sounds like I am boasting, thats not the intent. I just wanted to share...
Over the years I have had quite a few cars. santa


Bert tavis


Last edited by ibmoses on Thu Dec 24, 2009 4:43 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Big Block vs. Small Block V8   Big Block vs. Small Block V8 - Page 2 EmptyThu Dec 24, 2009 4:39 pm

Hometown Hero wrote:

Well "Pontiac" did make a 428 not just Ford. In 1967 the 421 was bored to 4 1⁄8 in (104.8 mm), increasing its displacement to 427.6 cu in (7.007 L). The 428 had the same 4.00" stroke as the 421, and was produced from 1967 to 1969. This engine produced 370 horsepower, or 390 in H.O. form. The Crankshaft in the 428 also had a N cast on them as opposed to the 421's armasteel. In 1969, Pontiac also used a revised Crankshaft out of a Pearlitic Malleable Iron although it still used the" N" i.d. cast letter. This new material had stronger alloys in the iron. All 428 engines were factory install in large cars only. However, there were a few dealers that would install a 428 in a customers GTO or Firebird for higher power levels.


I realize its not a "Chevy" BB its a Pontiac engine, but they are both off shoots of GM who is technically the actual competition for Ford. smoke

I'm not trying to bag on anyone else, I just know mostly about Chevrolet. Ford actually made two engines they called 427's (they both displaced 425 CID but were advertised as 427's due to the maximum engine size allowed in GT racing in Europe at that time IIRC, Think GT40). The first was the famous 427 'side oiler' FE series and the other was the rare 'Cammer' SOHC 427. But both of these engines are rare and thus when you talk 427 most people think Chevrolet. Same goes for the 428, while pontiac made thier version of one, it was not as advertised as the 428 Cobrajet Ford made and thats the one that pops into peoples heads when they first hear 428. When I think Pontiac I think 389 or 455 the most. Thats where I'm coming from.
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PostSubject: Re: Big Block vs. Small Block V8   Big Block vs. Small Block V8 - Page 2 EmptyFri Dec 25, 2009 1:17 am

Like the Ford 429 vs the Caddy 429.

Or the Ford 351 vs the GMC 351.

Or the Pontiac 400 vs the Chevy 400 vs the Ford 400 vs the Chrysler 400...
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PostSubject: Re: Big Block vs. Small Block V8   Big Block vs. Small Block V8 - Page 2 EmptyFri Dec 25, 2009 3:11 pm

Don't forget these

Caddy 331 vs Chrysler 'Firepower' 331

or Ford 302 vs Chevy 302

or Chrysler 360 vs AMC 360

or Nash/Hudson/Rambler 327 vs Chevy 327

ibmoses: That is quite a list of Pontiacs, I've only seen 1 Super Duty at a car show years ago.
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PostSubject: Re: Big Block vs. Small Block V8   Big Block vs. Small Block V8 - Page 2 EmptySat Dec 26, 2009 3:38 pm

I have the AMC 360 and its hilarious how many times people tried telling me it was a Dodge engine. headshot
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PostSubject: Re: Big Block vs. Small Block V8   Big Block vs. Small Block V8 - Page 2 EmptySat Dec 26, 2009 3:57 pm

Hometown Hero wrote:
I have the AMC 360 and its hilarious how many times people tried telling me it was a Dodge engine. headshot
Did AMC cast their own blocks and heads for the 360 and other sizes ???
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