95 SC throwing codes - intermittent running problems

OK another update...

Checked out the wires from the ICM to the PCM - all checked out OK
IC
Bypass
Spark reference
fuel control
cam signal
reference low (ground)

I triple checked the CKP wires from the ICM harness and they were correct and making good contact. same with the cam sensor harness

Car is still starting intermittently - - SES stays on when key is turned to run but goes away after engine is started. no codes present when it does it or when codes are present SES is on as normal

was watching the datastream on the engine and everything seemed OK but I dont know all of the data Im looking at.

it has a slightly rough idle when running. I revved it up several times and then once the traction light flashed on for a split second and engine died. no new codes were thrown.

gives the 0321 and 0361 codes along with the 0670 codes

Im now suspecting that the CKP could be defective. maybe the higher revs throw off the timing and crash the system?

Another one I read is that a bad alternator can cause these problems.
And I am thinking the plug wires maybe causing EMI to the signals for the ICM through the engine harness. The spark wires are about 3" away from the engine harness at the closest point on the engine.

Going to run through the flow chart

well I ran the flowchart and that didnt help/

I was thinking that the car tends to die when its warm...
So i bought an ICM and it seems to drive good now.

time will tell

jeffyd123 wrote:

I was thinking that the car tends to die when its warm...
So i bought an ICM and it seems to drive good now.

Out of curiosity, where & how much?

got it from autozone... it was cheap ($120) and it has alifetime warranty.

Jst drove the car and it drove well... no missing or hesitation... seems to have been it all along... combined with the bad wires in the ICM harness.

Thank you very much for all of the help and input.

If I can ever help you guys with a PC problem feel free to call me at 858-883-5222 or email me at jefffyd123@hotmail.com (I most likely wont see it as it will be in my spam). you can also PM me here.

Now I gotta fix my oil leaks!

I'm guessing the ICM and one or more timing sensors (crank/cam) failed at same time. When that happens diagnosis is tough.

By the way that write up Jeff did on the installation of the replacement harness was very good.

Albertj

thanks albert. I wish I had more pics of the harness installation... and hopefully mine will hold up.

she's was running great and i did about 6 - 1/4 mile runs of 3/4 throttle. went on the highway and it was good and smooth too.

gonna try getting live data tomorrow while im putting around in her.

I did find a HUGE oil leak on my garage floor this morning. looks like it might have been coming from the balancer area. about 12" long (front to rear of the car) and 3 inches wide I was idling and revving the car for about 20 minutes in the garage..... but it didnt re appear after I drove it around. It may be something that happens when the car is at higher RPM so I have to spock it out ASAP.

The next thing will be the other oil drips underneath.

daily route driving in Pittsburgh.... kills 'em eh guys?

Leak from the balancer area would be that seal you replaced. Maybe it is cocked a little. Mine wore out at about 160K miles and dripped like a puppy that needed to be housebroken. Weird thing is it went all of a sudden, throwing oil in the engine compartment and making a mess.

There is also a chronic oil pan leak problem. All you have to do to make the oil pans on these cars leak is to EVER jack them up by the pan, it crushes the gasket and then it's all over. From normal running they eventually leak. One fix is get an aluminum pan and dip tube from a donor car (some of the olds' with 3800s had them) or off eBay (they come up from time to time). Another fix is to just replace - at next oil change drop the pan and check for flatness. . If flat, replace gasket but get the current factory or good FelPro "Perma Dry" (probly same thing) they have an improved design. If not flat, still replace that gasket but also replace pan with new. New gasket and flat pan will seal. Also watch the valve covers (esp the rear) for chronic drips at hi mileage.

Albertj

gracias amigo.

The rear main seal aint leakin so Im happy. THe front seal I replaced looked like it went in flat and true but I dont know.

Thanks for the info on the pan.

jeffyd123 wrote:

gracias amigo.

The rear main seal aint leakin so Im happy. THe front seal I replaced looked like it went in flat and true but I dont know.

Thanks for the info on the pan.

I dunno either I was not there.

I replaced my rear main when I had the transmission rebuilt at ~100K miles. That way I could use a 1-piece instead of 2-piece. Not a weep or peep from it ever. The 2-piece will work IF IF IF you can keep it clean while installing. I am embarrassed that I forgot about it in my earlier post.

Albertj

Damn. It lives. Glad to hear ya got it workin! Just wish it wasn't such a PITA.

Wow albert... i didnt know they made a 2 peice rear main seal on any car. Fortunately, I got mine with a rebuilt tranny so Im hoping the seal was replaced.

thanks abaddon... really appreciate you sticking with me in my "Dark" hours.
Looking back it wasnt too bad of a repair... chasing electrical gremlins is always about testing the wires I suppose. At least I know my main harness is OK now.

Im wondering if the fluid I saw on the ground could have been from the ABS system (remember how the pump was cycling) the fluid looked like oil but was thiick and very clean/clear. hmmmm. might have damaged a brake line when i was reefing on the puller.

tell ya what... let me have your ride abaddon! LOL... Ive been looking for cars out here still but no one has what I want. I nice 97 red/red just sold for $2000

Im still lookin but I really want a 98.

jeffyd123 wrote:

Im wondering if the fluid I saw on the ground could have been from the ABS system (remember how the pump was cycling) the fluid looked like oil but was thiick and very clean/clear. hmmmm. might have damaged a brake line when i was reefing on the puller.

tell ya what... let me have your ride abaddon! LOL... Ive been looking for cars out here still but no one has what I want. I nice 97 red/red just sold for $2000

You have to blast a brake line pretty hard to damage it. I'd make sure all is ok before you go tooling around and end up using somebody elses rear end as a docking point

You'll find a good one. Just have to keep lookin, usually out of state. Problem is, most ppl that take care of these cars keep them. The ones that don't are the ones you see for sale.....Just convince someone on here to sell theirs! (you ain't gettin mine)

I drove it just now and its oil... its dripping while its driving but no large puddle anymore... weird. Im gonna crawl under there and try to figure it out.

The nice thing about the rivs in this area is there isnt any salt so they are in primo shape.

There is a real nice looking 95 with 125K but I really dont want another OBD1 - link>>> http://portland.craigslist.org/mlt/ctd/1794248716.html

the wheels have to go... and the tranny may be getting ready to die but I like the look of it. I cant figure out whats up with the interior... look at the armrest... Its like there is no console. I was thinking it was the rear seat but I think its the front. did they make a custom interior on some models?

jeffyd123 wrote:

. I cant figure out whats up with the interior... look at the armrest... Its like there is no console. I was thinking it was the rear seat but I think its the front. did they make a custom interior on some models?

Danny, just like the 'optional' Landau top on the Eldorados,
the console was an option on the Riv...
There are even a couple out there with CLOTH, instead of leather.

Quote :

I drove it just now and its oil... its dripping while its driving but no large puddle anymore... weird. Im gonna crawl under there and try to figure it out.

I once had a car (Chrysler) that had a leaking oil pressure sending unit. It would only drip when the car was running, never when parked. Maybe something to check when you get a chance.

Yep. KillaKen's Riv has a column shift with no center console. It's a rarity for sure....

Good catch, Aaron. I think the only oil pressure sender that I've ever replaced, was because it was leaking not because it failed electrically.

jeffyd123 wrote:

Wow albert... i didnt know they made a 2 peice rear main seal on any car. Fortunately, I got mine with a rebuilt tranny so Im hoping the seal was replaced.

thanks abaddon... really appreciate you sticking with me in my "Dark" hours.
Looking back it wasnt too bad of a repair... chasing electrical gremlins is always about testing the wires I suppose. At least I know my main harness is OK now.

Im wondering if the fluid I saw on the ground could have been from the ABS system (remember how the pump was cycling) the fluid looked like oil but was thiick and very clean/clear. hmmmm. might have damaged a brake line when i was reefing on the puller.

tell ya what... let me have your ride abaddon! LOL... Ive been looking for cars out here still but no one has what I want. I nice 97 red/red just sold for $2000

Im still lookin but I really want a 98.

they make 2 piece seals, whether they're worth using is subjective. For instance:

Link

This is for the 3800 engine when it was licensed by AMC for use in the Jeep.


Just put "2 piece rear main engine seal" into Google and you will see a bunch. To compare them hit the "shopping" word in the top left of the screen after you do the initial search.

Albertj

thanks AA... i will check it.
NAPA said the balancer shaft needs a sleeve to seal the shaft because there is a groove in the shaft from the seal... felpro makes it. i bought it and im gonna put it on. Ive had little drips before but nothing like this.

got a question... is there any way to tell if the oil pan gasket has a windage tray inside without removing the pan 1st?

Eldo... so its a split bench seat with a column shift then eh? that doesnt sound good.

thanks guys.... Im tearing into the old girl!.. will report back and Ill update my write-up about the sleeve.

jeffyd123 wrote:

thanks AA... i will check it.
NAPA said the balancer shaft needs a sleeve to seal the shaft because there is a groove in the shaft from the seal... felpro makes it. i bought it and im gonna put it on. Ive had little drips before but nothing like this.

got a question... is there any way to tell if the oil pan gasket has a windage tray inside without removing the pan 1st?

No way to tell - BUT - look at the gasket - to get a look at one there are pictures of the old and new gaskets on RockAuto.com, just look up your car/year they are under Engine. The gasket so to speak is a big flat thing with strategically placed holes, not a cork or rubber band around the perimeter only. The revised gaeket seals better, and has a revised windage tray built in. With your experience you'll see the difference between the two immediately.

So the only way there is no baffled gasket (no windage tray) is if some one pulled the pan before you got the car and did not install the proper gasket. If so, then hard runs at high revs would make your oil really really foamy. With the obvious consequences.

You'd think there might be a telltale like a tab on the gasket at a certain spot but I am not aware of one.

I guess the other way to look at it is if the oil pan is gasketed with silicone form-a-gasket you might have a a problem.

Albertj

jeffyd123 wrote:

thanks AA... i will check it.
NAPA said the balancer shaft needs a sleeve to seal the shaft because there is a groove in the shaft from the seal... felpro makes it. i bought it and im gonna put it on. Ive had little drips before but nothing like this.

I just installed one of those sleeves on an E350 Ford Van. Only difference is, it was for a RR hub seal (full floating axle). It came in for the RR wheel smoking. Found that the hub seal was bad. Installed a new one. Van came back 3 weeks later for the same problem.......long story short, those sleeves work as long as their installed properly. The axle did have a groove in it. It's not leaking anymore.

They make those sleeves for all kinds of stuff, and from my experience with em, they work.

Every Steel Oil Pan has a gasket with a windage tray built into it as far as i know. Every OEM and Fel-Pro I have seen has a windage tray and would have to work properly with the Steel Pan.

The only pan that doesn't require a gasket with a windage tray is the all Cast Aluminum Pan, as it has the windage tray built into the pan and only requires the GM sealant on its mating surfaces or the equivalent.

If you search Aluminum Oil Pan on this board you will find the GM sealant number.
I found an aluminum pan on E-Bay complete, essentially for the cost of a gasket with windage tray.

abaddon - I just finished installing that sleeve on the balancer... no more oil leak... hopefully I got it on properly. I took pics of the groove in the balancer and the sleeve (will post in my writeup about the harness. the instructions said that it must go on straight and true... which I did after the first 1/4" or so.

I also had the upper tranny line leaking at the radiator (which I recently replaced). It was dripping down all over the lines at the bottom of the radiator bay and making a hell of a mess.

finally, the radiator line that comes out of the water pump wasnt re-installed properly when I did the harness so I re-fastened it and its good to go.

The car isnt leaking now except for 1 lonely drop near the rear-center of the engine.
I found a bolt on the back side center of the motor, about 3" above the oil pan that has oil on and under it that looks pretty wet.... its almost impossible to get wrench on it... it looks like its leaking. I have no idea what the hell this bolt is for... its just sitting there with nothing attached to it. I tried to tighten it but it is rusted and wont budge. I just left it and will check it later. I may just clean it and put some kind of goop on it to seal it.

Rick... so the aluminum pans are cast then... well mine is steel for sure then... Ive never jacked the car up by the pan or aver put a jack on the motor so hopefully its not leaking. I did slightly tighten the screws down on the pan a couple weeks ago... maybe put 10 ft/lbs on them. they all had oil on the bolts making it look like the pan is leaking. but the balancer leak was throwing oil around pretty good so maybe that was it.

Albert - I had autozone look it up and they couldnt tell which one went on there but thanks for the info.

Car is running really good now.... purrin like a kitten...

So, new cam sensor, crank sensor, PCM, ICM, ICM harness, harmonic seal and sleeve (autozone had the sleeve for $10, NAPA wanted $40, both felpro), and the engine harness (not installed and trying to return to Morad)... say goodbye to about $550 plus about 25 hours of diagnostics and work. figure a mechanic would have been about $1500 - 2000.

The job could be done in about 6 hours now that I know how to do it... hopefully the write-up will help some peeps to save some time and headaches.

Again thanks so much to everyone... You are good guys and there arent enough of you in the world.

jeffyd123 wrote:

Albert - I had autozone look it up and they couldnt tell which one went on there but thanks for the info.

I won't say AZ was your first mistake -- I shop there, the local AZ is OK -- but what you might want to do is look up the parts on RockAuto.Com - when you click on the little pictures they enlarge. The part description tells you which is original and which is revised gasket. I understand it's wise to get the revised one to solve the oil seeping issue, unless you spring for an aluminum pan. The issue with the aluminum pan is if you hit a road obstacle (truly unlikely) they can shatter and spill your oil. The steel pans, on the other hand, dent but are unlikely to release the oil. On the other hand the steel pans tend to seep.

and again avoid jacking it up by the pan if at all possible. This can be an issue if you're removing the ferrule in the front motor mount to change the supercharger belt.

Albertj

Well I must have installed the sleeve wrong on the balancer because it started hemorrhaging oil after the first 40 miles today....

Im getting a new balancer and seal tomorrow.

That sleeve is really hard to get on straight. Mine started a little bit cocked for the first 1/8" and that must have been enough to trash it.

Fun fun fun.