Anybody used Water Wetter?

How about this Water Wetter stuff? Anybody used it in their Rivie? Did it actually run 20degrees cooler?

I used Water Wetter quite a while ago. It does cool more efficiently when used properly. I think I used a 80/20 water/coolant mix with it. Yes, it cools about 10-20* better than coolant alone. I did notice though, that the engine got a little hotter when sitting at lights though. Apparently it's cooling properties apply to it's heating properties also (It transfers heat well). But as soon as you start moving again, it cools off immediately. Mind you, I had a 160* stat without a tune, so my cooling fans would never come on. I'm sure with the fans on at a light, the engine would stay cooler.....

I've read it works, but never used it. Never needed too, as using a 180º t-stat keeps my coolant temps low enough. If you're seeing temps getting too hot, may want to try the 180º t-stat and/or change out the coolant if older than 5 years.

Fans won't come on until 210-220º. I thought mine were broken before I reprogrammed the fans to turn on earlier.

Use it all the time in cars and bikes. Works really good but the results definitely differ depending on the setup.

For my honda I was seeing temp drops of at least 20 deg, if not more....but your talking about a tiny 1.6 engine.

Helps my bike run 10-20 deg. cooler.
These are all approximations, but I am happy with the results.

For the Riv my t-stat appears to sit right at 180 all the time. I cant tell if its 175 or 185, but in getting good results in other setups, I've seen its better than running all coolant. I run mostly h20, then a bottle of ww, and a tiny bit of coolant (for the anti-corrosive properties).

Obviously you need to change over to coolant/mixes for the winter. So you can only use it in the summer.

I've never thought of using wetter water in a radiator, but I know about the stuff and can save you guys a lot of money here. Learned about it and what it could do while writing an article on the Fire College in Ocala back in another century. Firefighters use it at times because with it they can run the same amount of water, at the same pressure, through a 3" hose than with regular water through a 4" hose.

No matter who packages it, or what they charge for it, wetter water is simply water with some glycerin added to it. What the glycerin does is to lessen the surface tension of water to allow it to flow more smoothly.
You can buy pint bottles of glycerin in a drug store and make your own wetter water for a fraction of the cost! Takes very little. I've used it primarily in a swimming pool pump.

True, you may be able to duplicate the benefit of Water Wetter with generic glycerin for a fraction of the cost, but the cost is only $9.95 for the bottle - not too much for what it is. And you'll know it's mixed correctly, and the grade of materials is sufficient to do the job. You always pay a little more for the R&D.

But if you can show a significant temperature drop using drug store glycerin, I would like to see it. A few reviews I've read say they saw no benefit to using Water Wetter with the standard 50/50 mix of water/coolant. Like I said above, I've never had a cooling problem with this car, and still using original radiator and hoses at 210k miles.

However, It seems Water Wetter can replace the properties of coolant in a water-only application. So, the real advantage of the product would be on the race track, where you must run straight 100% water. I think many racers throw a bottle of Water Wetter in there for insurance: better cooling and anti-corrosive properties, and still they can pass tech with flying colors.

Here is a graph I found testing different coolant mixes:



Basically they revved a SBC V-8 (alum heads) to 7200 RPM for a few hours to get the engine super hot, then measured the speed of recovery when RPMs dropped. It is an extreme example that shows what Water Wetter can do, and from what I see in the graph, it's obviously not doing much.

For example, look at the huge difference you get just going from 50/50 to straight water. Compare that to the tiny improvement you see using Water Wetter with either mix. Not worth it, imo, especially for street use. It won't get you any real world results.

Yes, in some other applications that run very hot I've used water wetter and RMI-25 with good results. But in this application, the factory cooling system is more than sufficient and any other additives are totally unnecessary.

AA wrote:

It won't get you any real world results.

You've seen this? or just read about it?

7901mark wrote:

AA wrote:

It won't get you any real world results.

You've seen this? or just read about it?

I think the chart that goes with the statement covers it pretty well. Look at the difference between 50/50 and 50/50+WW. Not very much, certainly not enough to notice in a modern cooling system like what's in our Rivs. It makes a slight difference if you have a setup with an undersized cooling system.

I can get a confirmed 20ºF drop in coolant temps by doing one of two things:

1) Use a cooler t-stat - it's about the same price as a bottle of Water Wetter, and you can use a 50/50 coolant mix, and it's safe in the winter. Best solution, imo.

2) Increase the proportion of water to antifreeze - it won't be as safe in the winter, but it will cool your engine more efficiently in summer.

Even Red Line's own tech paper shows you won't see 20ºF drops in reality - unless you remove your 50/50 coolant and replace it with 100% water. Just changing to water will cause the 20ºF drop. You don't need Water Wetter to accomplish this.

Water Wetter added to the standard 50/50 mix isn't gonna do much for you. It's ok to add when running 100% water for the track, but for most of us this doesn't reflect a real world scenario.

deekster_caddy wrote:

Look at the difference between 50/50 and 50/50+WW. Not very much

Correct. I would never use 50/50 with water wetter. You wont see results unless you are using just water with ww (maybe a dash of coolant)

AA wrote:

I can get a confirmed 20ºF drop in coolant temps by doing one of two things:

1) Use a cooler t-stat - it's about the same price as a bottle of Water Wetter, and you can use a 50/50 coolant mix, and it's safe in the winter. Best solution, imo.

Your not technically dropping your coolant temps here by 20 degrees, you are just opening you thermo at 180 vs 195....which I agree, allows it to run at a lower temp, but your coolant mix will react differently than with water and ww.

AA wrote:

2) Increase the proportion of water to antifreeze - it won't be as safe in the winter, but it will cool your engine more efficiently in summer.

Even Red Line's own tech paper shows you won't see 20ºF drops in reality - unless you remove your 50/50 coolant and replace it with 100% water. Just changing to water will cause the 20ºF drop. You don't need Water Wetter to accomplish this.

Water Wetter added to the standard 50/50 mix isn't gonna do much for you. It's ok to add when running 100% water for the track, but for most of us this doesn't reflect a real world scenario.

Again correct. You need to get rid of the 50/50 mix and run water with the ww. Who would run just water? Not smart. I was just asking, have you actually experienced this or just read it? Curious for the answer.

7901mark wrote:

deekster_caddy wrote:

Look at the difference between 50/50 and 50/50+WW. Not very much

Correct. I would never use 50/50 with water wetter. You wont see results unless you are using just water with ww (maybe a dash of coolant)

AA wrote:

I can get a confirmed 20ºF drop in coolant temps by doing one of two things:

1) Use a cooler t-stat - it's about the same price as a bottle of Water Wetter, and you can use a 50/50 coolant mix, and it's safe in the winter. Best solution, imo.

Your not technically dropping your coolant temps here by 20 degrees, you are just opening you thermo at 180 vs 195....which I agree, allows it to run at a lower temp, but your coolant mix will react differently than with water and ww.

AA wrote:

2) Increase the proportion of water to antifreeze - it won't be as safe in the winter, but it will cool your engine more efficiently in summer.

Even Red Line's own tech paper shows you won't see 20ºF drops in reality - unless you remove your 50/50 coolant and replace it with 100% water. Just changing to water will cause the 20ºF drop. You don't need Water Wetter to accomplish this.

Water Wetter added to the standard 50/50 mix isn't gonna do much for you. It's ok to add when running 100% water for the track, but for most of us this doesn't reflect a real world scenario.

Again correct. You need to get rid of the 50/50 mix and run water with the ww. Who would run just water? Not smart. I was just asking, have you actually experienced this or just read it? Curious for the answer.

Okay, go back to that chart AA posted. The difference from 50/50 to 50/50+WW is not much, but the difference of 50/50 to water only is huge. The difference between water only and water + WW is again not much. The addition of WW is making only a minor change to the thermal transfer. Water alone cools much better than 50/50. If you run just water you still should add a water pump lubricant/corrosion inhibitor additive. They do sell this separately at most auto parts stores.

My experience with WW is similar to what's shown in the chart - it makes a little difference but not much.

deekster_caddy wrote:

Okay, go back to that chart AA posted. The difference from 50/50 to 50/50+WW is not much, but the difference of 50/50 to water only is huge. The difference between water only and water + WW is again not much.

If the difference between 50/50 and water only is huge, and the difference between water only and water+ww isnt much, wouldn't that equate to the difference between 50/50 and water with ww is huge? That was my point.....

Again, run ww with water and a tiny bit of coolant you'll see a difference. For example, when I had 50/50 (with the 180 thermo) Id see temps over 200 on hot days/long drives. Now with water+ww, my temps dont go over 200.

You really just need to try it yourself to see if its worth it instead of relying on what someone posts in a forum. I got great results in my honda and bike, so Ill use it for all my applications in the summer.

AA, you should try it on your Ac and tell me what you see. Just sayin

If it works for you, that's great. As I said, I wouldn't use Water Wetter in the Riviera because I see no need for it. I've found other ways to lower coolant temps, one of them lets me run 50/50 mix all year round and get a true 20º drop.

Really don't think most Riv owners would consider running straight water with WW, because there's not much reason to. The only reason is if you are racing on a track, where the rules ban the use of antifreeze. Most drag strips are lenient about that.

Don't see your angle that I'm technically not dropping coolant temps by using a 180ºF t-stat. The coolant temp sensor positively reflects a 20ºF drop. How is this not technically dropping?

I've never run 100% water in my cars, but I've tried 80/20 and 90/10 mixes before. There's definately a drop in temperature, but I went back to 50/50 because the t-stat and fan programming gives the 20ºF drop, so why change out coolant twice per year?

From Red Line's own tech paper:

"Red Line WaterWetter® can reduce cooling system temperatures compared to glycol solutions and even plain water."

"One 12 ounce bottle treats 12-16 quarts of water or a 50% ethylene or propylene glycol solution."

It would seem like Red Line is trying to say you can add WW to straight water, or a 50/50 mix.

Take a look at the graph again (this is from Red Line's tech paper):



Are they not trying to show the advantage of mixing WW with both 100% water and a 50/50 mix?

We may try adding WW to the Integ racer. So far though, we've seen no problems with coolant temps running 100% distilled water (as far as I know). Might as well dump in a bottle, as I don't doubt it's a good anti-corrosive additive, but I am not convinced it will give considerable coolant temp drops over plain water. I'm not going by forum posts in my research. I'm mainly feeding from Red Line's own tech paper, and some legitimate reviews made by professionals.

I used to run ww and an 80-20 mix in my 85 camaro. With a hot small block, a small radiator, and a tiny grill opening a third gen camaro is an ideal test subject for this product. I had no noticeable difference with water wetter or a similar product called 20 below. I used it with the stock 195 thermo and also with a 180. I noticed a difference in temp after the stat change, obviously, but no noticeable difference with ww. Cruise temps remained unchanged and stop and go temps still crept uncomfortably high. Since I don't put many miles on my car a year the added hassle of having to change from summer to winter mix wasn't worth it.

Fwiw, here is a graph of what happens when you use a 160ºF t-stat unit in cooler weather (40-50ºF ambient):

We used to run the WW and straight water, no antifreeze in the dirt track car.
No proof it worked. We just figured any added help to prevent losing a motor was a good investment.
Sometimes when I would draw a very bad starting position and have to start in the back the grille would get clogged with dirt/mud and she would heat up but never had a motor blow.

Bert

Water wetter provides the corrosion resistance so you can use 100% water. !00% water transfers heat better than a solution of AF and water. The less A/F you use in conjunction with the WW, the better it will work. WW lowers the surface tension of water, and I believe this allows the water to transfer heat better than water without WW. I believe it allows the water to get closer to metal parts inside the water jackets thus improving heat transfer. At least that is the theory. I use it in both my cars.

http://www.redlineoil.com/content/files/tech/WaterWetter%20Tech%20Info.pdf

AA wrote:

Fwiw, here is a graph of what happens when you use a 160ºF t-stat unit in cooler weather (40-50ºF ambient):

Are we talking a 180 or a 160? I thought a 180. Is this a chart reflecting a Riv? My OEM thermo was 195, not 200. You are just opening your thermostat at a lower temp, which yes, allows you to run at a lower temp, but you are not changing the properties of your coolant. It still wont act the same as h2o+ ww. As I said before, I used to see temps over 200, now with ww, they dont go over 195ish....

If your not convinced, don't use it. No biggie.

LARRY70GS wrote:

I use it in both my cars.

Yup, me too. I have real life experiences with this product and am happy with it. To each their own.

The chart reflects my Riviera with 50/50 Dexcool. I was showing how you can see up to a 40-50ºF temp drop with a 160ºF t-stat. A 180º t-stat will give a 15-20ºF drop. OEM is 195º, but typically our cars will run around 200º on average. I don't doubt you see up to a -5ºF drop with WW + H2O.

Imo, the "properties" of water, and how the coolant "acts" is irrelevant when a 180ºF t-stat allows the engine to run below 185ºF using a standard 50/50 coolant mix. The biggest question I have is, why would anyone want to drain their year-round 50/50 mix and add WW + water only to see a -5ºF coolant drop? It's a whole lot of work for a very small gain, and then you must put the 50/50 mix back in for winter. Keep doing this if you like. I will keep my 50/50 mix year round, and see my coolant temps never rise above 185ºF, even in 95ºF+ ambient heat.

When I refer to "real life" experience, I did not mean your specific instance, I meant if the average Riviera owner takes a $10 bottle of WW and dumps it in the radiator (as I interpreted OP's question), is it going to make a difference? No, it won't be noticeable. If a Riviera owner drains their coolant and replaces it with WW + H2O, will it give Red Line's claimed -20ºF drop? Maybe, but this is not "real life" for most Riviera owners, imo. Can you easily see a 15-20ºF drop with 50/50 coolant by swapping in a 180º t-stat? Yes, you absolutely will.

The thermostat determines what temperature the engine will run at. An engine will not run cooler if the thermostat won't let it. A radiator is capable of removing a certain amount of heat from the coolant. A bigger radiator or one with more fins or bigger tubes can remove more heat than a smaller unit. Thermostats are rated at their opening point. The thermostat will not be fully open until 15--20* past the opening point. A properly designed cooling system will run at or slightly above the rating of the thermostat. Our Rivieras have an excellent cooling system. The aluminum radiators can remove a lot of heat in a short amount of time. The thermostat, and the setting at which the fans come on ultimately determine what temperature the engine will run at in our Rivieras.

Water wetter improves the heat transfer of the coolant. It can help if your coolant system is not in the best condition or is undersized. A properly functioning, well designed cooling system should never allow coolant temps to rise more than 100* above ambient temperature.

Also, when you race your car at the track, the track will tell you that the hardest spill to clean up is anti freeze. They try to discourage it's use, but street cars almost always use it. A race car will use 100% water and a corrosion additive like WW or Purple Ice or other products. Anti Freeze does not transfer heat as well as water. That is why they tell you not to use more than 70% concentration. I still see people who believe 100% anti freeze is better than a mixture. That can overheat an engine all by itself.

In my circles, dealing with the big block Buick 455, we deal with quite a bit of cooling system problems. The BBB is a light weight block casting. The cylinder walls are not very thick. Some blocks are worse than others due to core shift. When you rebuild a block like that and bore it .030 over, the engine has the potential to run 10-15* warmer per .010 overbore. Again, some blocks are worse than others. Most BBB engines need a good 4 core radiator or an aluminum one. Water Wetter can make a difference in that type of situation. I have a Griffin Aluminum radiator consisting of 2 rows of 1 1/4" tubing. I use a 30/70 mix of A/F to water and the WW. My engine will run within 5* of whatever thermostat I use.

Agreed, thanks Larry!