strange road noise

Abaddon wrote:

Not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but if you don't rotate your tires regularly, the rears become chopped on the edges because of the toe-in of the rear wheels. The second you rotate them to the front, they hum. Also, the toe-in on the front may be excessive, causing the chopping.

So you're damned if you do and damned if you don't?
Could you get around this by maybe just switching your rear tires from side to side?
Or am I just missing something? (Wouldn't be the first time).

you can run 0 toe.

robotennis61 wrote:

you can run 0 toe.

I agree... The '98 spec is 0* +/- 0.2*...

Jamax wrote:

So you're damned if you do and damned if you don't?
Could you get around this by maybe just switching your rear tires from side to side?
Or am I just missing something? (Wouldn't be the first time).

No, I'm saying rotate your tires properly at about 6,000-8,000 mile intervals and that problem won't arise.

OR, get your car a 4 wheel alignment. The proper Alignment specs for the Riv are as follows....

Front Toe 0* +/- .2* (range of -.2 to .2)
Rear Toe .2* +/- .2* (range of 0 to .4)
Front Camber -.2* +/- .5* (range of -.7 to .3)
Rear Camber -.3* +/- .5* (range of -.8 to .2)

If you understand this, you can see that the rear wheels are cambered in farther at the top, and the front of the wheel is pointing towards the center of the car (toe in, or -). This creates a "dragging" effect on the inner edges of the tire. Over time, if not rotated, the rear tires will get a rippled effect on those inner edges. You won't notice this until you rotate them to the front, where the toe-in and camber are less. This now puts those rippled edges on the ground more, hence the "rumbling" or "growling" that arises from the wear.

Now, given that you rotate your tires regularly, this won't happen, as the tires wear evenly. Each tire should see all 4 corners of the car within 24,000 to 32,000 miles (unless you have directional tires). Although, directional tires, IMO, are useless unless you have posi-traction. Almost all cars have a dominant drive wheel. I've seen a hundred FWD cars with directional tires where one side's tire tread depth becomes as far as 4/32" deeper or shallower than the other. You can't rotate side to side, only front to back, unless you want to have the tires dismounted every 10,000 miles and have them "flipped".

If your alignment is off, which is common, especially on the rears, this "normal" tire wear becomes premature. The rear control arm bushings wear out, springs settle, tie rods wear, etc etc. All of these contribute to making the alignment specs more negative (more toe in and - camber). Getting the car aligned can compensate for aging parts, and help save your tires.

Quote :

Although, directional tires, IMO, are useless unless you have posi-traction. Almost all cars have a dominant drive wheel. I've seen a hundred FWD cars with directional tires where one side's tire tread depth becomes as far as 4/32" deeper or shallower than the other. You can't rotate side to side, only front to back, unless you want to have the tires dismounted every 10,000 miles and have them "flipped".

Not a tire expert, but I've ran 5 sets of directional tires on this car; they are awesome against hydroplaning. Also, most of the better handling (max/ultra performance) tires are directional, so in order to get the high levels of cornering grip, traction, and wet weather performance, I run directionals with good results.

I usually get 35-40k miles out of each set, rotating front to rear (same sides) every 8-10k. Halfway through the life of the set, I have all tires removed from the wheels, and remounted (flipped) to the opposite side of the car. This gives a fresh outside edge all around for the remainder of the set. Tread wear is even all the way out to 40k. As a returning customer, I have never been charged for flipping the tires from one side to the other.

Directionals are absolutely superior in overall handling. 99% of people FA!L to maintain them the right way. Most buy them because the salesman recommended them.

You, my friend, are a rare breed

Abaddon wrote:

Not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but if you don't rotate your tires regularly, the rears become chopped on the edges because of the toe-in of the rear wheels. The second you rotate them to the front, they hum. Also, the toe-in on the front may be excessive, causing the chopping.

that is exactly what happened i think. when i bought the car the first thing i noticed is that the tires look like they havent ever been rotated. about the second day i bought it i pulled the car into work after hours and did a rotate and balance! i didnt even think to mention it earlier but i bet it has a lot to do with the noise as well.

That's probably exactly where the noise started. When you run your hand along the inner edge of the tread, does it feel like it's "lumpy"? If it is, lack of rotation or alignment issues is where the uneven wear came from, and that's the source of the noise.

Abaddon wrote:

That's probably exactly where the noise started. When you run your hand along the inner edge of the tread, does it feel like it's "lumpy"? If it is, lack of rotation or alignment issues is where the uneven wear came from, and that's the source of the noise.

just went out to my car and checked. that seems to be the case. when i have the money i will be buying some new tires

Eh, it's more annoying than anything. I put 4 tires that were severly chopped on my car. I got them for free. In order to certify used cars, the tires had to match, and be "chop free". Tons of lease turn-ins never had the tires rotated. So when I had to replace 'em, I'd keep the "like new" tires from the rear and just dealt with the noise. Eventually it will go away. They just need to "break in" to the front end. It really has no adverse effects except for the noise.....

I just replaced my drivers side front wheel bearing and the same shit is happening to me! I bought a brand new Timken and installed it today.

Went for a ride and the damn thing sounds louder than the old one! I'm hoping its the tires/alignment like suggested here. I also installed Eibachs and new struts today. The noise will go away around 50mph.

Doing the work and having it sound worse grinds my gears!

Get a front/rear alignment ASAP!

Ya I know, I've got it scheduled for tomorrow!

VJD2 wrote:

I also installed Eibachs and new struts today.

lets see it!

If I get home before it gets dark tonight I'll snap some pictures. Plus she is a little dirty right now so I'd be embarrassed at her appearance.

I'll get some up soon though. Install went sooo smooth!

VJD2 wrote:

Doing the work and having it sound worse grinds my gears!

Not to mention your bearings...

(I'm so bad....)

VJD2 wrote:

If I get home before it gets dark tonight I'll snap some pictures. Plus she is a little dirty right now so I'd be embarrassed at her appearance.

I'll get some up soon though. Install went sooo smooth!

do you have before and after pics? im really considering these springs cause i just got paid and i think your car might make me want to get them even more.

EDIT: what struts did you end up going with VJD2?

Thanks, Scott, that's the sort of information I need. After 22 years of tooling around in a 1983 S-10 (light weight, low powered [2.8], neutral steering) I haven't given much thought to this situation because it wasn't necessary. Tire wear isn't a problem even though I don't bother rotating the tires. And my Riv, on which I've put 6 miles in the 5 months I've owned it, is still in the process of being rebuilt. But it'll get a good set of tires on the original rims. I'm still not sure, but I'm thinking Goodyears and, now that I've seen Aaron's comments and your answer to him, probably directionals. Last time I was seriously concerned about it was when I had my '53 Buick Special V-8. Considering what I did with that car, if I hadn't put firstrate tires on it, and devoted myself to taking care of them, I almost certainly wouldn't be here now.
Incidentally, I apologize for not acknowledging your kind answer until now. I've been out of town sans computer for over a week.

Jamax wrote:

Thanks, Scott, that's the sort of information I need. After 22 years of tooling around in a 1983 S-10 (light weight, low powered [2.8], neutral steering) I haven't given much thought to this situation because it wasn't necessary. Tire wear isn't a problem even though I don't bother rotating the tires. And my Riv, on which I've put 6 miles in the 5 months I've owned it, is still in the process of being rebuilt. But it'll get a good set of tires on the original rims. I'm still not sure, but I'm thinking Goodyears and, now that I've seen Aaron's comments and your answer to him, probably directionals. Last time I was seriously concerned about it was when I had my '53 Buick Special V-8. Considering what I did with that car, if I hadn't put firstrate tires on it, and devoted myself to taking care of them, I almost certainly wouldn't be here now.
Incidentally, I apologize for not acknowledging your kind answer until now. I've been out of town sans computer for over a week.

No prob man. Wish I could go out of town