Kicking it Old School...

So, I have decided to make some changes to the audio system in the Riv. I was not happy with the new mass produced Sounstream amps that I had gotten for it. So I have decided to go back to the basic. I am going to pull my TRX2000D and install a RF Power 1100a2, and swap out my TRX4.880 for a RF Punch 800a4. I have had great luck with the older RF amps of the a2 series from 1999. IMHO they're arguabley the best amplifiers Rockford Fosgate has ever produced. I should have them all cleaned up and ready to install within the month. I am confident that this 1900 (@ 2Ohms) wrms system will be much louder than the 2880 (@ 1Ohm) wrms soundstream system. The input voltage for the RF specs was 13.8. The input voltage for the Soundstream spec is rated at 14.4. I think the dynamic power because the car isn't actually putting out 14.4 will be the about the same. The RF amps are built far superior to their Chinese competition (if you can call it that).

Then I have to pull my old Power 500a2 and Punch 120a2 out of the Alero and replace them with the TRX 4.880. Got my gf a new ride, a 2003 Mitsubishi Eclipse spyder (not my choice) she loves it. So i will throw the older RF amps in it with maybe a couple of 8 inch Kicker L7's for some punch. Then look at some high end components, etc. I decided that spyder needs rims in the worst way though, the factory rims are just not doing it for me. I'm open to suggestions on woofers and components for the spyder as well. I'm sure you guys have tried products I haven't and had success. I was thinking of going with Focal for high end. Anyone ever use Focal speakers before? Thoughts?

P.S. Sorry for the novel, boring day at the office.

I havent used focal before but heard they sound good. but your taste in sound maybe different then someone else. I just put in the doors some polk audio db651. for the price for a 6.5 speaker these thing kick butt. nice clear sound not much on bass, but thats what the sub is for. I think i paid $100 for the pair..your best bet is to go to different shops and hear some speaker for yourself. there were more pricey speaker at the place i went to but i liked the polk audio. ask them to hear the speakers by itself then play them with a sub, some times you may not like them when mixed with a sub.

Definitely decide on what sounds good to you playing the music that you listen to. If you have an iPod or MP3 player, create a Playlist that includes music you like as well as music that should test the Sub, bass, midrange, tweeters. Ideally, you would play it on a very nice home system with great fidelity as a benchmark. Then take it to an auto sound shop and play it thru different speakers. Pick the one you like.

The following are my Benchmark songs. This represents tunes that have dynamic range, different musical aspects and the fact that I am an old fart. I mean, some of these may be older than some members. The key is to pick the characteristics in music you like and are familiar with.

Open Your Heart-- Madonna-- Bass beat with tubular bells
La Isla Bonita-- Madonna-- Bass beat various other background percussion
Axel F (Beverly Hills Cop)-- Harold Faltermeyer-- Demanding bass beat, xylophone, with synthesizer
Sunrise from Thus Spake Zarathustra (2001:Space Odyssey)-- Straus--s Very deep Bass sections
Sailing-- Christopher Cross-- Clean sound with a surprisingly deep bass that used to cause my system problems. I did not understand how much bass until I watched the VU meters on my Accuphase home amp.
Antarctica-- Vangelis-- Various synthesized bass and demanding highs (The Vangelis Odyssey album has several good "speaker workout" songs. Themes from Blade Runner, Mutiny on the Bounty and Chariots of Fire.)
Magic Man-- Heart-- There is a tone slide from medium bass to very low, sub only bass at the bridge 4 minutes into the song. This tests the crossover settings. The sound should flow seemlessly from the front woofers to the sub and back. If it drops out or gets weaker anywhere the crossover is not set at the correct frequency.
Crazy On You-- Heart-- Acoustic guitar 'fingers on strings'
Higher Love-- Steve Winwood-- Very crisp opening percussion and then deep background synthesizer plus brass section
Abracadabra-- Steve Miller-- Test left to right separation as well. Like all of the others, this is a very clear recording.

These are about system test. I like ZZTop but the recording I have is not clean enough. I listen to 7 different versions of Pachelbel Canon in D every night but the nuances are somewhat lost in road noise.
My advice is to buy the best component set you can afford for the fronts. I good sub will make whatever front components you have sound better by "unloading" the need of the woofer to make low notes. (My system improved when I raised the crossover between the woofer and sub to 120Hz from 80Hz. The back OEMs are OK for fill. Drive it all with a 5 channel amp. My Alpine PDX-5 is 4 Ohm @ 14.4v: 4 x 75 for the corners + 1 x 300 for the sub. The good thing is that it is digital and solved some output problems that I had. The bad thing is, its predessesor, an Alpine MRV-F450 5 channel sounded warmer and smoother.

My experience with Focals is that they not only rock but they have stood the test of time (remember I have listened to them for 150,000 miles) and now temperature (-10 to 100+ interior temps.)

I have been doing alot of research on speakers lately for the Mistu install. I haven't had any experience using the square Kicker solos of today. Back when we were competing with our little 1986 Ford Escort. We squeezed in (2)18" Kicker Solo Barics in the back and ran them off an old school Punch 500. That thing was a serious system in the early 90's when we were at it, but those woofers were still a traditional round design.

Has anyone on here ever used the square subs? It's said that a 12" square sub is equivalent to most 15" round subs (vice versa amongst all sizes) because of the difference in surface area. I was looking at the (2) 8" L7's 450 RMS / 900 Peak for the Mistu and possibley (12" Solo-X) an eventual replacment for when i finally pop my Mayhem 912 in the Riv. The 12" Solo X really caught my eye at 1500 RMS / 3000 Peak its almost a perfect match up for my Power 1100a2. I was also looking at Cerwin Vega Stroker 12's, and the RF T2D412 as possibilities but am open to more suggestions.

What really gets me going on the idea of the Solo-X is being able to produce the same output as a 15" round, without having to perform any real changes to my enclosure aside from making a round hole into a square. I know the mounting depth will be okay and I have plenty of airspace in my ported enclosure (4 cubic feet) so I can only assume it will pound like crazy and with a little luck in an efficient manner. The only issue is, I am an excursion guy... I'm not sure what the Xmax is on the square subs but they look to me like they wouldn't allow for as much excursion as a round woofer. I guess the question is does excursion make any difference in this situation? I realize most subwoofers on the market are horrendously inefficient, and many need extreme power amplifiers to over come this problem. I know many are impressed at first with subwoofers which use GOBS of power, thinking they must have extreme output. In reality, more sensibly powered and intelligently designed subwoofers will achieve the same output (if not more) with greater accuracy and less cost. But to go back to my previous comment I am an excursion guy, I like watching my sub throw itself 2 or 3 inches out of the box, its cosmetic attributes add some "Balls" to your install.

Opinions on square subs vs. traditional round? Any experiences? Let me know... thanks guys.
Oh and thanks for solidifying my decision to go with Focal highs, I always figured they looked top notch. But I don't like to judge a book by its cover.

If it says anything, I've been running a single 1st Gen Kicker 8" L7 for about 7 years, driving it with 200W RMS. It's impressive what can be achieved in a large, sealed box. I can get a reasonable 25Hz in-car. Mine fires into the seat, but if you aim it to the rear, it will be loaded better. Two of these subs with more power can do amazing things.

I personally don't care about a sub's shape. For both SPL or SQ, squares make some real sense, and the L7 is a good design because it makes better use out of its displacement, with about 20% more cone area than a round 8". That means it doesn't have to stroke as far to make the same output in the same space. Some will say a round speaker "just sounds better" because it's "more linear" or has less "cone flex", but these ideas are easier said than proven. Here are some true facts about sub bass and square vs. round subs:

- SPL depends on quantity of air movement at a specific frequency.
- SQ depends on quality of air movement (linear waveform reproduction).
- at times, SQ requires dynamic potential (ability to make high SPL for transients & very deep lows).
- generating lower frequencies requires moving more air (using increased excursion, cone area, or both).
- longer strokes can compensate for smaller cone area.
- larger cones can compensate for a shorter stroke.
- smaller strokes operate more linearly, to generate lower distortion.
- multiple subs offer larger effective cone area.
- a square cone can accurately be defined as a 20% larger version of a round cone.

So we can make some definite conclusions from all of that. Some still say L7s don't sound good, but imo they are judging by listening to higher bass frequencies through the subs. If you properly cross them over low enough, they will do as a sub was intended, and perform well in both SPL and SQ categories.

Never used a SoloX, but everything about it sounds great. Most new subs coming out now have great specs in regards to power handling and output capability. To me, that means you can get away with going smaller and fewer, and using more power - you'll get a lot more for less money and space, with reasonably linear cone movement. Still, if you want the absolute best SQ and SPL, the rule is to use as many large (and square) cones as possible. Power will not be an option at this point, it will be a requirement.

And don't believe a square cone can't move air - for same reasons as above, it doesn't need to stroke as far, but it certainly can given enough power. And the L7s and SoloX can take power. The result is massive SPL. Around 2002, Kicker put two L7 8"s in a giant vented box, in the cabin of an S7 pick-up. They fed 1200W RMS per coil to each of the 4 coils, and hit 155 dB. That was extremely loud back then, up near the record of the time. It totally redefined what an 8" sub could do.

If you want more out of 8"s, and you like excursion, I'd look into JL's W7 series. Round cones, but they have a much longer stroke. And knowing JL, they've developed a motor that moves things cleanly. However, one could make a pretty good argument that this would mean the W7s make more distortion. It's a moot point though, because distortion is very hard to hear in the lower frequencies, with 10% being acceptable to most. Some even like the sound of bass distortion, calling it "punch".

For the ultimate excursion, check out RE's XXX, or some of the Brahmas from retired Adire Audio. There are a few others that I can't think of right now (made by TC Sounds). You'll need lots of power to make these boys work, but they will move!

I had a quick look at the RE products , and they also look pretty impressive. They remind me alot of the Orion HCCA series in design. I had thought about the HCCA series but my Power 1100a2 is only 1563 rms according to the birthsheet, and its a class AB 2 channel, heat will be a problem if i don't match it up properly. At least in my Riv I have the current Soundstream amps mounted vertically. Which is perfect for optimum cooling, that is the way those older RF "massive heatsink" amps were designed to be mounted. (according to Rockford Fosgate) So they will fit nicely.

My Power 500a2 is a perfect match for a pair of 8" kicker L7's. I know u (AA) and I have discussed it before, but to quickly bring any other readers up to speed,in late1999 I used the Power 500a2 to run a pair of Rockford Fosgate 8" HX2's (400rms/800max) ported, in a 1985 Fiero 2M6 and hit some pretty amazing DB #'s. I can't help but think the result will be the same or better with the L7's.

In the Fiero i was faced with only having the option of facing each woofer forward into the rear of each bucket seat, I had to countersink the woofers so they were flush with the box surface then make a custom outside ring for the woofer about 1" thick, in order to prevent the woofer from colliding with the posterior of the seat surface. I liked the flush look alot better than the ring, but it was to save the woofers from premature failure, so function over form i guess you could say.

However in the Spyder I can face the woofers towards the rear of the trunk and bounce the sound so to speak. The trunk is a nice size so installing the amps will be relatively painless and fairly small, and we'll still have a decent amount of trunk space to fill when its all said and done. I will try to take pics as I move along with the install. Thats of course if I remember, you guys know how it is when you get going on an install.

I'm not an audiophile at all, but I thought Aaron deserved to be pushed over the top and get the first 3-digit Integrity Score...

So, I was looking online at the JL audio W7 and some sound bites. I really, really liked them, until I notice they were only a single 3 ohm voice coil. This got me questioning if I can even run 3ohms from my Power 500a2? I know 8,4,and 2 ohms are all easy to wire and the amp is stable. How does 1 hook up a 2 channel amplifier to a woofer and achieve a 3ohm load?

The impedance is determined by the speakers rather than the amp. The 500a2 specs indicate 4 ohm is the minimum impedance for a driver to run the amp in one channel. You would have to run two of the w7 woofers to work on that amp. With the low 3 ohm impedance the w7 woofers are better suited for mono sub amplifiers.

Okay so I could run (x2) 8" off of the Power 500a2 without issue in the Spyder (providing they'll fit of course), but I will have to look eslewhere as for a replacement for the single 12" in my Riv. I guess thats narrows it to either a Cerwin Vega Stroker, RF T2D412, or a Solo L7 (I think the solo X is a bit much for my Power 1100a2). That kinda sucks because that W7 woulda looked badass in the Riv.

In a Riv there is no point in going with an 8 except for the WOW factor of "that's an 8in sub". You would be much happier with a single 12, and oddly enough probably come out quite a bit cheaper. I've read (and do believe) that the new W6 will actually out perform the W7 watts per sound output. I personally find the overly clean, "round" sound of new long excursion subs to be lacking compared to my "old school" American built Bostwick HD Pro's (same build company as the old Stillwater Design Kicker subs). Something about the attack of the older lower excursion subs was better in my opinion. Also you can check out Pierce Audio Products. I have a pair of WMD 10's and to my ears they are no different in small ported boxes than the W7's I've heard. Guys over at Realm of Excursion bash on them because they are the loudext EVAR but for the price I will NEVER complain. That and you can directly talk to the guy building your subs, even have him do custom work if you would like.

Umm you must be confused, I'm not putting 8's in the Riv... they are going into my GF's Mitsubishi spyder. I already have the stereo completed in the Riv, I am simply changing the amplification from Soundstream to Rockford in the Riviera there will be no speaker changes until I actually blow the current 12" in the Riv (that may take awhile it a 4400 watt woofer), and even then I'm just going to replace it with another 12".

Thanks for your suggestions on speaker brands though, I still haven't bought anything in the woofer department for the Spyder, I will look into what you suggest and see if it fits the bill.

Just some updated photos and a short vid of the amp swap. The bass knob hasn't been installed yet but its still pretty loud, and looks pretty good. Needs a few finishing touches is all.


Short video, sorry if the video is dark, I did it at 11:00pm lastnight in my garage...

Sorry video is so dark and distorted, it was dark and the camera wasn't top notch. Sounds much better in person.

Updated Video: Still tweaking the amps but this is much clearer.

UPDATE: Just picked up the subs and an amp the end of last week, for the wife's Mitsubishi Spyder. I bought her a very nice "chrome edition" Rockford Fosgate Power 800a4 (honestly a little jealous) and we went down to my buddies audio shop (J's Place) and got a smoking deal on some Rockford P2 8" (wanted L7's but couldn't say no to the price of the P2's) woofers because they were NOS that was on clearance. Also bought a Clarion double DIN Nav/CD/MP3/BT/blah blah blah, head unit. Just waiting on the component set and 6x9's, and go to work early next month. I will post before/after pics of the build, it will be pretty simple.

I know, I know, who cares its an Eclipse right? But I will keep the focus on the audio, as opposed to the automobile.

BUILD LOG:

Vehicle=2003 Mitsubishi Spyder GS (my lady's car)


The trunk... not much space to work with in this little car.

But there is always room for more junk in the trunk!



Just getting started alot more to come.

Nice setup dude, that sub is insane for a single 12, and seems to be made of kevlar, with a huge ammount of excursion. I have a couple o fquestions though: how much does your car rattle, and how/what did you do to your amazing glossy marble colored dash? I'd really like to know about that custom dash, as I don't like the vinyl look of mine :3

Sorry to respond so late. Have not been back in awhile. The dash kit I ordered on fleabay, price was reasonable if I remember correctly.

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/Dash-Trim-Kit-for-BUICK-RIVIERA-1995-carbon-fiber-wood-aluminum/362213688184?hash=item54559e4378:g:jowAAOSwFnxaXBuy