I Still Love You Bill Porter

I was cursed with a high IQ, except when it comes to electrical thingies… I got my first shot of 110VAC when I was two years old, and I haven’t been quite the same since. So I’ve tried to stay away from anything electronic. Mantra: stick to simple cars. I even had trouble figuring out how to make this post.

But lust overcame me. Flash back to 1995 when I caught my first fleeting glimpse of the new model of Riviera. The saliva ran down my sweater and soaked through to my skin. I had to have one at any cost. Alas, a new one was way out of my price range. So I visited an optometrist, and had my eyes adjusted and tuned to spotting Rivieras. I suffered for 15 years.

Then…. five months ago, the old van was about to disintegrate, so I cruised the used car dealers, and there… there was a lovely dark blue 98 Riviera, 110,000 miles, one lady owner from new. And it was AFFORDABLE! Yee ha!!! It was MY BABY. The wife even loved it!

An aside - Bill Porter, if you’re reading this, Bill, you are my mentor. The styling is breathtaking. Pure elegance. So subtle in places. Jaguar? The Citroen concept car, the Comobil (?), that was to have an NSU Wankel Engine? And the rear end styling is… well… it could turn me from straight to gay… How on earth did you get this design past the brain dead at GM? Fifteen years later, the styling is STILL contemporary. The following may drive me insane, but Bill Porter I still love you.

Kevanski in Western Canada

Welcome, kevanski. Yes, I agree, Bill Porter is the man!

He's probably about my age (65) or older. I've seen other cars he designed, but nothing comes close to this Riviera. It must have been his retirement swan song. He should be very proud of it.

I read somewhere on the web Bill Porter owns one. That tells you something. If I were him, I would have bought a dozen of 'em to last a lifetime!

Personally, I think he/they pinched the ass-end too much. But from every other angle I totally agree - When I brought this car home at 8 years old, my neighbors thought it was brand new!

Even now, after the annual scrub & seal, people really have no idea how "old" these wonderful cars are...

As for your IQ and electricity, hell, just stick with your vivid prose!

Yeah, I know what you mean about the rear end. At first it didn't seem right, so it fascinated me. I kept staring at the tail end, walking around it, looking at it from different angles, trying to understand what was in the mind of the designer. Then suddenly I understood.

As a designer, I studied semiotics (also called semiology), which is loosely defined as the human characteristics we assign to inanimate objects. We have an emotional reaction to them, so we use emotional words to describe them. Inanimate objects can be ugly, sexy, attractive etc. Some we want to touch, some we want to own, others repel us etc. etc. Cars are the greatest examples simply because they are larger than life!

The 95-99 Riviera is a feminine car for obvious reasons, and therein lies its basic appeal to some of us, although by no means all of us. Some need a male ego extension, others may want to pas unnoticed. But the Riviera's soft curves create beauty in a feminine way. She exudes an exterior calmness, elegance and sensuality. She is composed on the outside, parked at the curb. She's right at home pulling up outside an expensive club or restaurant.

But she is no ordinary girl, this one. Only the lucky owner knows what's hidden beneath the perfect but innocent looking skin. She wants to get out on the highway. The supercharger wants to whine. This car is the perfect manifestation of the girl who, to the rest of the world is just an attractive girl, but to the owner is a find that he will always keep secret. Because she puts out! But not like the "other girls". She has you lie back and relax, and do it all for you. She will envelop you in sheer luxury, take you there just the way you want to go, and she'll make you feel like a king.

So she has to have a perfect body, and a perfect body has to have balance. And I believe that's the clue to the rear end. How else could it be styled? If it were any shorter or less tapered, I don't think it would work. And since the car has to feature a relatively short hood (a long aggressive hood would be far too masculine), an extended rear end is simply a question of balance.

And when a beautiful girl passes you, you need to be able to glance back and receive an equally enticing impression from the rear, and IMHO the Riviera does that with absolute perfection. It's in keeping with the entire character of the car. And that's why I think Bill Porter, and perhaps the automotive stylists he was working with, really really rock.

I suppose that long taper to the rear is also very functional in reducing drag, but to me that's just a bonus!

And as far as my writing goes, thank you for the compliment. I enjoy writing, but my speech is liberally laced with obscenities and expletives, so as you might imagine it wants to spill over into my writing. But this is public stuff, so the restraint leaves me with a bleeding lip...!

Eldo wrote:

Personally, I think he/they pinched the ass-end too much.

Be thee either hot or cold . . . I like it, I get the "boat tail" thing the Riv has going. That's high style no other car has.

I think she has the nicest ass of any car I've owned, and one of the nicer ones I've ever seen.

Jack the R wrote:

Eldo wrote:

Personally, I think he/they pinched the ass-end too much.

Be thee either hot or cold . . . I like it, I get the "boat tail" thing the Riv has going. That's high style no other car has.

Riviera is, basically, a shark w/o a dorsal fin - see the fish pic on this site:

http://www.whale-shark.org/

Albertj

I'm really enjoying this. Can't help feeling the same way, although I hadn't analyzed why as is being done here. The one other car I tend to drool over (well, except for maybe a Deusenberg Model J or an Allard J2) is a 1953 Studebaker Starlight Coupe). It just feels good to own a Riv!

albertj wrote:

Jack the R wrote:

Eldo wrote:

Personally, I think he/they pinched the ass-end too much.

Be thee either hot or cold . . . I like it, I get the "boat tail" thing the Riv has going. That's high style no other car has.

Riviera is, basically, a shark w/o a dorsal fin - see the fish pic on this site:

http://www.whale-shark.org/

Albertj

I think it comes from these old style Chris Craft boats - Link

Tell me that doesn't scream "8th gen Riv" (or vice versa).

Welcome, glad you finally got to own your own Riv. The styling certainly has aged well since it was released.

kevanski: You are a great writer. I share your love affair with the Riv and Bill Porter's eye for design. WELCOME TO THE GROUP !!!

Nicely written. Here you go!

I dunno, styling aside, the car is very heavy, has a bad weight distribution, and is way bigger than it needed to be.There's no reason the hood should even be that big for a small 3.8L engine, the trunk could fit several corpses in itself, each door weighs over 200 pounds, it is front wheel drive with a terrible 63/37 weight distribution with more body roll than most vehicles, There are literally no aftermarket parts available at ALL for this car.

That being said, I still love this car, and for a 97, it still looks great, but could have looked better if they pulled in the bumpers and did a few other things. thing is super comfy, rides smooth, magna steering is awesome, it has more than enough toque for a daily driver, has good gas mileage,

It's not as perfect a car as a lot of people make it out to be though is all I'm saying =O

Not saying the Riviera is perfect, but I some facts need to be pointed out:

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I dunno, styling aside, the car is very heavy.

Cars that are heavier:
2010 Ford Taurus SHO: 4,300 lb
2008 Dodge Challenger: 4,140 lb
2010 Ford Mustang GT500: 3,924 lb
2004 Audi RS-6: 4,057 lb
2009 Cadillac CTS-V: 4,250 lb
2011 Mercedes AMG S63: 4,941 lb
2011 BMW M5: 4,288 lb
2006 Mercedes SLR McLaren: 3,900 lb
2005 Bugatti Veyron: 4,162 lb

Considering the weight of cars in this list, it's hard to discredit the Riv for this reason, especially considering the power and torque that can be extracted from the 3800 SC. CTS-V and M5 are two of the best-performing 4-doors you can buy; the Veyron is the fastest car on the planet! And remember, cars that are heavier aren't just bigger in size - they use heavier duty parts, and so tend to last longer and fair better during impacts.

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There's no reason the hood should even be that big for a small 3.8L engine

It's part of the styling (the reason is simple: the front end is an ellipse), but since the hood is aluminum, it's still lighter than a smaller steel one like you see on 90% of cars. If you've ever worked under the shortened hood of a van, you quickly understand the benefit to having a large hood that gives plenty of access to the engine bay.

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the trunk could fit several corpses in itself

One of the biggest complaints you will read in reviews of sport luxury cars is lack of rear seat room and trunk space. This is because cars that aren't all-out sports cars are supposed to be comfortable and practical for everyday use. Car & Driver said it best: "Is it just us, or should luxo sedans all happily accommodate five American-size citizens?" The Riviera should be praised for this thoughtful design consideration.

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each door weighs over 200 pounds

Since the doors are low, and extend far to the rear of the car, this may not be such a bad thing. My driver door survived two direct impacts without damaging the rest of the car. In one case, the door still functioned normally.

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it is front wheel drive with a terrible 63/37 weight distribution with more body roll than most vehicles

Being FWD, it's going to be nose heavy. In theory FWD = wrong wheel drive for racing on track. However, there are plenty of FWD cars out there showing doubters they can perform. They may not be as "fun to drive", but they will produce some surprisingly good numbers. For example 60 ft launch times for a Riviera can be in the low 2 sec range - launching is supposed to be the FWD Achilles heel. The 3800 performance vendors actually criticize the G-body (Riv/Bonneville) for it's better weight distribution, having less mass over the front wheels than the W-body.

As for body roll, most cars will roll unless given a sport-tuned suspension. For the Riviera, roll can be decreased with just a few inexpensive changes to the car's suspension (bolt-ons). Our independent suspension is surprisingly well-designed, and made of quality materials. The front chassis is extremely rigid. I've driven mine at autocross, with times very close or better than some of the supposedly "sportier" import sedans. For the road course, an LSD can be installed for better traction out of the corners.

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There are literally no aftermarket parts available at ALL for this car.

Hogwash. Available modifications for the Riviera:

Engine: block, heads, pistons, rods, cams, rockers, push rods, valve springs

Intake: FWI/CAI, throttle body, Gen V blower, turbo kit possible

Transmission: gears, shift kit, carbon clutches, stall converter, torque converter, vac modulator, cooling pan, trans cooler, LSD

Exhaust: headers, high-flow cat, resonators, mufflers

Tuning: performance PCM, dyno-tune, PCM reprogramming/flashing software, mini AFC

Brakes: race pads, rotor upgrades, F-body calipers, SS hoses, F&R big brake kits

Suspension: strut tower brace, F&R stabilizer bars, poly bushings, struts, track tires/drag radials

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could have looked better if they pulled in the bumpers and did a few other things.

They didn't have much choice with that one. Look at most any bumpers from the mid '90s and you'll see the same type of thing. It's an impact safety requirement that changed a few years after. As a result, bumpers look better now, but they're costly to repair. One of our members (sqrivi) created a front & rear bumper replacement with a much lower profile. Send him a PM if interested.

Again, the Riviera is far from perfect, but for the price paid, and considering its age, there are very few vehicles on the road that can match its performance, economy, and comfort specs. It's a very well-rounded vehicle, imo. It even has a decent towing capacity, no need to buy a pick-up!

Gee Corey, if the Riv has so many qualities you don't like, maybe you shouldn't have bought one. I don't own a Mustang because it doesn't look like a Riv.

c0reyl wrote:

I dunno, styling aside, the car is very heavy, has a bad weight distribution, and is way bigger than it needed to be.There's no reason the hood should even be that big for a small 3.8L engine, the trunk could fit several corpses in itself, each door weighs over 200 pounds, it is front wheel drive with a terrible 63/37 weight distribution with more body roll than most vehicles, There are literally no aftermarket parts available at ALL for this car.

That being said, I still love this car, and for a 97, it still looks great, but could have looked better if they pulled in the bumpers and did a few other things. thing is super comfy, rides smooth, magna steering is awesome, it has more than enough toque for a daily driver, has good gas mileage,

It's not as perfect a car as a lot of people make it out to be though is all I'm saying =O

Haters gonna hate, but my supercharger whines

In all seriousness though, does the number attached to the car really matter if it drives like you want it to? I don't care how much it weighs or what the torque and power numbers are or the length of the hood and trunk. If I like the car, nothing else really matters. And actually, that's a problem I think some people have with the stigma of a "used" car. Even mileage is just a number. My riv has done a quarter of a million miles and I'd still rather be in this than a new nissan versa.

Like I pointed out in another thread - 10 grand for a new car gets you some cheap materials, a weak engine, moderate fuel economy, a bad ride, and few options. Oh and you're likely to need the warranty they provide.....Yet I bet that for 5 grand, you can find a nice condition 96 or 97 riv with the series II SC engine and all the goodies and good paint. ALso keep in mind that a) you probably paid cash for it so you owe nothing on it so you get cheaper insurance rates. b) the car has already lost all of the new car value so you won;t have to worry much about depreciation. c) it's a GM car so a lot of parts can be had off of other cars in their lineup in terms of powertrain and, most importantly, d) When you buy a riviera, you DON'T end up with some crappy econo-box, you get two tons of the American Dream that you can park in your driveway. Nothing against foreign cars, I actually like a lot of them, but I do feel bad for people who buy a new aveo or versa or fit because they think they HAVE to have a new car.

No, it isn't perfect, otherwise it might still be in production. But it comes quite close in its price bracket. For the money most of us have been spending on these cars (take a glance in the welcome section) name another car that can do the easy cruising and leadfoot antics we enjoy along with the civilized comfort and refinement in our cabins, and wrapped up in a clean package that is quite easy to care for. That's a pretty short list. Especially the easy maintenance part. I looked at a porsche 944 until I looked at the parts cost to fix a few things on it.....I don't have that kind of money right now. Would that car have been more fun? Absolutely. So would the 3-series, the mustang, the miata, and (when it worked) the jaguar XJS I looked at. But I need to drive this everyday and be able to maintain it on my own. Yet at the same time, the thought of a taurus, an intrepid, or a camry made me want to harm myself.

Maybe the car isn't for you, and I can easily see that. Aesthetics alone can drive a person to dislike a car. But if you look at the numbers and assume the car has flaws just because of some numbers and figures then you really don;t know much about cars. The kia rio has less weight, better fuel economy, and better weight distribution than a riviera....but which would you rather drive and be seen in? That's what I thought

Good point on numbers not being the end-all, but I actually put some stock in honest (measured) specs, and while a '90s Riv doesn't impress by today's standards, with a few mods (~$2-3k worth into a $5k car) it is surprising what you get. How many cars, new or used, can offer all of this for $10k?

1/4 mile in high 13s
0-60 mph in high 5s
~300 hp / 370 torque
21 MPG combined
mid 30s MPG hwy
.90+ lateral G
1500+ lb towing cap
~4000 lb gross wt
reliable past 250k mi
low DIY repair cost

There are some direct injection engines from Hyundai that approach this level of performance, but you won't get it for $10k, and you can't tow a trailer with it. The Genesis' 4.6L V8 option gives awesome performance with similar MPG as a Riviera, but you will pay $43k starting price for that.

3800 series II has upgrades readily available, yes... ONLY because of the Pontiac Grand Prix GTP, and people's obsessions to drag race it. without the Grand Prix, there would be NO upgrade options for this car worth getting. No one even knows what this car is when they see it, how do you expect there to be kits for the car? it's all custom work.

and by the way, I'm not trying to rip on the car, nothing is perfect. I was merely pointing out it's flaws. and yes, this car has a LOT of torque, but you can't even fit big boxes in it, and whpo's gunna mod a towing hitch on a sleek luxury car? lol

All in all, I'll admit that this is a hell of a car for the $750 that it was bought for and the $2000 or so of upgrades.

are you sure about .9 lateral G's? It never seemed to corner that well for me, but that could be because I'm using my step dad's rivvy that traction control doesn't work on and it has bad tires. by the way, the rivvy was like $40K brand new wasn't it, I feel bad for people that bought it new with depreciation value that bad =[

But... I kinda wish that one of my favorite cars had depreciation that bad so I could afford it in the same token lol.

c0reyl wrote:

3800 series II has upgrades readily available, yes... ONLY because of the Pontiac Grand Prix GTP, and people's obsessions to drag race it. without the Grand Prix, there would be NO upgrade options for this car worth getting.

You can apply this theory to hundreds of other models/manufacturers/drivetrains as well. The SC3800 is an excellent motor and they should have used it in even more platforms!

When I started shopping for my Riv I had no idea the GTP and all it's mods existed, I just knew how strong and reliable of a motor it was to start with. At that time my only late model 3800 experience was from my parent's old '98 Park Ave (N/A). I thought that was an extremely impressive car and was actually looking for a good Park Ave Ultra for myself but found the Riv along the way and fell in love. I knew how well the N/A motor pushed the Park Ave around and would be plenty happy with the SC Riv. Of course once I discovered the available parts I went from there, but I was getting this car before I knew about the GTP.

Yes, we can thank the GTP racers for creating a larger market for 3800 SII performance parts, but the Buick 3.8 was a proven, mod-happy engine long before the GTP was thought of. Think Buick Grand National...

On the logic of "Without car X engine Y wouldn't be so good". Pretty much every good honda engine owes its success to the civic. The 4.6L V8 in ford's lineup is entirely due to the mustang that crown vic guys and people using them in rangers and mercurys and other projects.

And corey, we're not really doing this because we think you're bashing our car as much as your arguments for its flaws are quite weak and easily refuted. We're not battling you as much as we are battling ignorance in a car community. While we do have a fair amount of parts, knowledge on cars like this is, admittedly, limited. But such is the case with all limited run cars. You can find everything you could ever want to know on the V6 Duratec powered Taurus in repair manuals readily available in any parts store but good luck on the V8 powered SHO....

The thought that ran through my head was not necessarily "OMG THIS GUYS HATES OUR CAR! RAGE RAGE RAGE!" but rather "Oh crap, there is misinformation out there about our cars." It's an uphill battle sometimes as I'm sure you're not alone with the thought of "Well this car is too heavy to be serious about going fast" or "The weight balance is all wrong for good handling"

And on the subject of correcting ignorance - I've fit PLENTY of large boxes and cargo in my riv, maybe you just suck at luggage tetris . We joke that with the SLS system working it would be a great bootlegger for moonshine or rumrunning

you mean like the old Buick turbo grand national that used to beat corvettes in a straight line?

Yes, I know the 3800 series II engine is one of the best 6 cylinder engines ever built for it's displacement, for the money you pay for it. there are also better engines, but they are in super cars, so it's pointless to even discuss it. Yielding 750 whp in a rebuilt $1200 motor to start with is pretty impressive. the reliability of this engine is probably in the top 5 of 6 cylinder engines, period.

but... like I said, this is going to be my daily Driver cruiser until I'm about 25 for at least 5 or more years. I couldn't have asked for a better first car, period. The big size makes me a better driver on the road because being bigger than most minivans, it really teaches you how to drive properly, and even as importantly, it teaches you spatial recognition of the vehicle VERY well. it's super comfy and extremely unique and I do love it. not a bad car at all

I just felt like pointing out the flaws because alot of people seem to think it is the be all and end all of cars ever built, and for some, it will be, but I chose to back up my argument with real numbers because it's hard to refute actual evidence. I'd take my 97 rivvy over my friend's 2010 v6 4.0L shitstang any day. I don't plan on this ever being a performance vehicle other than going relatively fast for it's size to mess with other cars for fun if I feel like it. Basically, this being a more comfortable car and having just as much performance out of any $20,000 car today for a tiny fraction of the price, while looking way more unique is a very cool thing, and I do love it =]

To each his own, but as for me, I'll take the Riv over a number of other cars and some of them are brand spanking new. Let's suppose for instance that one could not turn around and sell one of these "NEW" cars for book value...I wouldn't trade my Riv even up for a Camry, Sonata, Malibu or a Taurus. But that's just me !!!

I guarantee that I can pull my Riv up alongside a number of brand new vehicles at the car wash on Saturday morning and the Riv will get the most admiring compliments by far.

That's not conceit, it's just a fact.

I know because it's happened more than once.

What makes it even more satisfying is that my Riv is PAID FOR !!!

As you said, Corey, I think the Riv is an excellent choice for a first car, and mine wouldn't fit in the garage spot our family friends parked their '08 Odyssey in. Taking two cars that are completely different from each other, my Riv and my current Si, the Riv had enormous presence because of its size, the ultra-long hood, and the design. My Si has presence and gets looks for the crazy color, the rarity of this particular model, and the sound. The Riv was incredibly comfy, and my Si gets great gas mileage whether or not I ask it to.

I know this sounds nuts, but if I could take the eagerness of my K20A3 engine, the M62 supercharger and massive grunting torque from my Riv, the handling, 5-speed, gas mileage, and sweeter sound from the Si(harmonics on a 90˚ V6 aren't the best), and put it all back in the Riv's timeless body, that would be wonderful.

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3800 series II has upgrades readily available, yes... ONLY because of the Pontiac Grand Prix GTP, and people's obsessions to drag race it. without the Grand Prix, there would be NO upgrade options for this car worth getting.

That fact is irrelevant - the mods are available. Without the Buick 3800 V-6, there would be no GTP!

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but you can't even fit big boxes in it, and whpo's gunna mod a towing hitch on a sleek luxury car? lol

I once fit a table saw in the back seat. I'll give you the model number if you want to stop by Home Depot and try it. Who's gonna put a hitch on a Riv? I did. It was easy because the receiver was made especially to fit '95-99 Rivieras. 4 bolts, done in about an hour. Even better, the rear adjustable air suspension compensates for the weight of the trailer load, keeping the car perfectly level. Best of all, the hitch is near invisible when not in use, and adds about 35 lbs of weight at the extreme rear of the car, improving weight distribution. PS - I have a friend with a hitch on his 427 Cobra.

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are you sure about .9 lateral G's? It never seemed to corner that well for me, but that could be because I'm using my step dad's rivvy that traction control doesn't work on and it has bad tires.

I'm sure that's what the accelerometer on my car-mounted iPhone recorded (it was .94 G). Some will point out the iPhone can't be very accurate - to them I say take an iPhone and put it flat on a table: 0 G. Then tip it 90º to the table: 1.00 G. Accurate enough for me.

Anyone who seriously modifies for handling performance will tell you tires are about 90% of a car's handling potential. I run wide, sticky, summer-only rubber. Also those giant Addco sway bars and KYB struts are probably helping, too. The cool part is that all of the suspension mods cost less than the tires.

Rivieras sold for between $27-35k, with some extra options pushing the price higher. Depreciation is a fact of life, no matter what kind of car you have. Drive it off the lot and you lose thousands (in case of a lemon).

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I chose to back up my argument with real numbers because it's hard to refute actual evidence.

Where are these numbers? My numbers come from Norwalk raceway, SCCA autocross, fuel logs, accelerometers, and a Dyno Jet machine.