Starter problem?

I've been having issues starting my car for a while now. At first it would just crank over no problem for long periods really fast but the car wouldn't start. I think this was because my key was slightly bent and that helped the issue but it started doing it again.

I then decided to clean my throttle body as best I could which involved me getting carb cleaner and cleaning the throttle body. It was so dirty that sludge was coming out f it. After cleaning it pretty good, the car started right up again instantly. This was about a year ago.

Not long after that, it was acting like I had a completely dead battery. I checked all the terminals and the chassis ground. the there was corrosion so bad on the engine bay positive battery terminal that it was crusty and Green. After sanding that to shin shiny new copper, it was like a brand new battery.

Recently I've been having a combination of both those symptoms. When it. Cranked over fine, it would sometimes take over 2 mins of cranking to start her up. Then I couldn't crank it over at all even with a jump start. I had someone give me a ride to advance auto and did a battery test on my battery. It had a dead cell in it. I put the brand new battery off the shelf into it and it barely cranked over and started up then I had it on idle for 15 mins and tried to start it again and I couldn't start it. I had multiple people try to jump it. Tried from the positive battery terminal in the engine bay, the starter itself, battery and more.

I had a friend hooked up to my battery for 20 mins to charge it and now the solenoid won't even click anymore. Tapping the starter with a hammer had no effect all. There's a short circuit somewhere in my electrical system and I have no idea where. The alternator could possible be going out as well because. A crappy 800 watt sound system should be nothing for a 140 amp alternator and my lights would dim frequently from my crappy 400 watt subwoofer.

Also I'm thinking there is a ton of corrosion on the terminal for the starter itself. I checked the terminal for the alternator and it was corroded pretty bad. The starter is probably the same case. It takes a 13mm socket but I couldn't get it off from above it so I'm trying to get a hold of my friend with his nice jack stands. I'm like 80 miles from home and my car is now at my brothers house. Me and my friends pushed it a quarter mile to the house at like 2:00 AM but I'm going to test my new battery today as well on cas its bad case but I think it's good cause my lights don't even dim from my abound system.

I'm hoping my issue is corrosion mixed with the short. I don't have a battery light testers I need a friend to help while I use my multimeter that I have in the trunk to find the short but my fuse label covers are at home so I need to find a pic of the labels. I don't get why the starter kind of turned over sometimes fine and then stopped turning over and now the solenoid won't even click now. It's acting more like a dead battery than a dead starter. I have an extra starter and alternator from the 95 parts Buick. The alternator looks compatible and I have it in my trunk and I will get it load tested today. Is the starter compatible as well? If my starter is dead then I can have a friend drive me home and back to take the starter out of parts Buick.

Also I'm thinking I want to take my upper intake manifold off soon to clean it and the throttle body much better soon. I need a new manifold gasket if i do that right?

Your problem can be solved easily IF you know how to approach it. I've been in your situation a few times with other cars, but never with the Riv, and there are some good reasons for that. Once you understand what it takes to start the engine, you'll no longer waste time trying things that don't help, or buying parts that won't fix the issue. You'll save time and money, and also avoid potentially damaging your car by trying random stuff, which could compound the problem further.

The only thing you really know right now, you've said yourself already:

"There's a short circuit somewhere in my electrical system and I have no idea where."

This is almost surely what caused the entire problem, and you must resolve it before any further troubleshooting.

Good idea getting the new battery. Now protect your investment by disconnecting power to ALL external equipment that could be draining your battery. Use a trickle charger to bring your battery back up to full voltage. This will probably take a day, or overnight. Then try starting the car again.

If the starter turns the engine over (not STARTING the engine, just turning over), then the starter is fine. It's not corrosion related, so don't focus on that.

If the starter turns the engine SLOWLY, your battery isn't charged enough. Trickle charge more, or jump start the car. The engine should start up. When it starts, drive the car for 20-30 mins. The battery should be charged and start the car right up after this. DON'T reconnect the stereo or anything else just yet.

If the starter won't turn, clicks, or does nothing, it may be bad. Realize why this is: because you cranked on it for 2 mins at a time on multiple occasions. Our OEM starters are some of the most durable units available. They rarely fail, if ever. But even the best starters are designed to operate 5-10 secs max. If you exceed that, they get hot and will die. There's no way around this. You just can't crank a starter for 20-30 secs and expect it to live for very long. Because ours is such a stout unit, maybe you got lucky.

If the starter turns over normally and the car WON'T start, the battery and starter are fine. Now it's a matter of dealing with 3 basic things: air, fuel, and spark. Air is easy. Make sure your filter is clean. Fuel is almost as easy. Listen for the pump to prime when you turn the key ON before starting. Use a fuel pressure gauge to test pressure on the fuel rail. If you see something above 30 PSI, you can rule out fuel. Spark can be checked by pulling a plug and seeing if it arcs while turning the engine. Hold the plug near ground (chassis,block) and watch for the spark. Be sure not to touch the electrodes. Do not spill fuel in the area!

If after these tests you still can't start the car, it may be time to take it to a shop. Are there any codes or is SES lamp on? These may reveal the problem immediately.

What you don't need to do: clean things like terminals, throttle body or LIM. It's fine to do this if you have extra time on your hands, but if your prime objective is to start the car, these things won't make much difference. Best of luck.

For an emergency start you could turn the key on, then go under the car and jump the big positive to the starter trigger wire. Do this ONLY IF the starter is not cranking when you turn the key. MAKE SURE the car is in park and the E-brake is set. (you are bypassing the neutral safety switch too) Careful not to ground your jumper wire when you do this! (short/spark risk!!!) It doesn't need a ton of voltage so a 14 gauge wire should be okay. I forget what color the trigger wire is, I want to say purple.


You have all sorts of things to test about the no-start issue - as long as the starter is cranking see if you have fuel pressure, injector pulse, and spark. Once you figure out what is missing, you can further delve into WHY that thing is missing.

You need fuel, air and spark. You are missing at least one of the three while cranking if it isn't starting. If it isn't cranking you have a completely different issue to look for.

Okay so I think I'm going to buy a new battery charger, charge it all night and see if it cranks over at all in the morning. Battery is disconnected right now. I don't understand why my solenoid no longer clicks anymore. My headlights are bright and the sound system won't dim them at all. Why would the starter barely crank over then the solenoid no longer work on the starter? The car is acting exactly like it did when the positive battery terminal inside that box in the engine bay was corroded so bad that it was crusty and Green. My subs can slam all they want for a half hour without dimming lights but the starter solenoid won't even click anymore. Tapping starter does nothing. This no sense at all unless there's faulty wiring to the starter itself l. Imo

It would also help to have a simple voltmeter, so you can know you have 12v at the battery and at other points on the car/engine. This will rule out wiring problems. A meter will also rule out he alternator when the engine is running.

It's possible you cooked the starter/solenoid, but can't know that until you get the battery back up to 12 volts. Headlamps usually won't dim to the bass with the engine off in my experience. They dim with the engine running because there's a ~2v difference between alt and batt voltages.

As for the green corrosion (copper sulfate) on the positive terminal under the hood, that really doesn't much sense. Usually copper sulfate collects as a result of hydrogen sulfide gas leaking from the battery. My original + terminal is still clean, never been cleaned once.

AA wrote:

It would also help to have a simple voltmeter, so you can know you have 12v at the battery and at other points on the car/engine. This will rule out wiring problems. A meter will also rule out he alternator when the engine is running.

It's possible you cooked the starter/solenoid, but can't know that until you get the battery back up to 12 volts. Headlamps usually won't dim to the bass with the engine off in my experience. They dim with the engine running because there's a ~2v difference between alt and batt voltages.

As for the green corrosion (copper sulfate) on the positive terminal under the hood, that really doesn't much sense. Usually copper sulfate collects as a result of hydrogen sulfide gas leaking from the battery. My original + terminal is still clean, never been cleaned once.

Wasn't able to get a hold of a charger tonight but maybe better luck tomorrow and I do have a multimeter. If I'm getting 12v to the starter then it would be the starter being at least one of the problems right? I think honestly my alternator could be going out too. Thinking back, if i cranked up my sound system in the past from an 800 watt rms total in all speakers system it would drain the battery faster than the alternator charged it. Also I do have a speaker whine that's impossible to get rid of which an audio shop owner told me could be the alternator. Could be true or it could be my crappy alpine amp as well because my older MB quart amp never had a whine as bad.

Anyway if my starter is bad, will the 95 s/c Riviera starter be compatible with mine? I think I'm going to do a pass key bypass soon because I'd rather have no security features on my key than an unreliable key and that will definitely help the life of the replacement starter if mine is in fact bad.

By the way I always did let the starter rest for a bit after 5-10 seconds cranking before trying again. This is probably at the point where I should ask myself if this car is even worth keeping anymore. It's like anything I fix, something else wants to break right after. The cars value is less than its own engine block.

If you're seeing 12v, the battery is good.

If you're seeing close to 12v at the starter, the wiring is good.

If the engine turns over, even if it doesn't start, the starter is good.

If you see 13.5-14.5v with engine running, the alternator is good.

If you can't get it to run, you have an air/fuel/spark problem.

Regarding whether the car is worth keeping, it sounds like you are saying the car "wants to break", like it's somehow the car's fault. I've owned and driven quite a few vehicles; the Riviera is probably the most durable and best performing I've experienced. One of the reasons I've kept mine is, it just won't die, no matter what I do to it. And when something does go wrong, it's far less to fix than most cars on the road today. You can replace/rebuild the Riv's engine for around $1500. Some people spend that much just on a set of tires.

I guess my point is, the problems you're seeing aren't likely as much to do with the kind of car you own, and more to do with poking around and tinkering with things you aren't familiar with. The Riv isn't too complex on the surface, but there are certainly some things about it that are common with this class of luxury car. You could own a BMW, Mercedes, Lexus, whatever. If you cut the wrong wire, or neglect some maintenance here or there, you'll have these same problems. For a car with so many electronic systems, the battery's condition is crucial for smooth operation, and could explain everything you've experienced thus far. Or there could be additional issues, but it all starts at the battery. We know some circuit is draining the system, and it's unlikely defective wiring, or otherwise the car's fault.

Makes sense. An easy way to tell if installing the new wire harness wrong is to unplug the harness and see if I still have a short. Something I did notice earlier is that using power windows dimmed my lights for some reason, so maybe my battery is pretty drained, the starter terminal was pretty corroded too but not as bad as the other terminals in my hood. I honestly have no idea why the were literally green and crusty with corrosion. I can tell you that about a year ago the positive battery terminal in the box was so corroded that it was like having a completely dead battery. The car would die on it's own after a jump start. Sanding that terminal completely fixed the issue. As for the dirty throttle body preventing easy start ups, when I got the car at about 190,000 miles on it, the stock intake filter was brown with dirt, there was a sock and it was full of acorns in the intake box. I'm pretty sure that a fair amount of filth has made its way into my manifolds before I got the vehicle. This is probably why there was sludge in the throttle body as well.

Electrical system could and probably was me being stupid somewhere but i don't normally cut up stock wiring. My halogen map light conversion is soldered up with liquid tape, and it works very well and doesn't ever overheat and all interior lights and sunroof switch works now. The only thing in the interior not working is the gauge cluster back lighting and seat motors, and the horn. The only fuse busted was the hlp/i/lp or whatever it's called that controls voltage that busted because of the short in the first place. I think it could be the horn being the short though because my horn was honking on its own a while ago with both my original steering wheel and the new one. Taking out the fuse for the horn would stop the short if this is the case, correct?

By the way my battery is brand new as of about a day ago and the alternator was pushing 14 volts at the capacitor in my sound system a few days ago as well as the hood terminal and chassis ground said 14v on my multimeter. I guess it's possible my new battery is just really drained combined with a short and some corrosion = my starter thinks it's dead, or I really did kill it but he starter up. It never did help having some of the most unreliable starts all year though. It still doesn't make sense as to why my starter always cranked over fine until my battery completely died on me with a dead cell then it struggled to turn over with a brand new battery, started clicking and now no solenoid click at all. Tapping the starter does nothing and wouldn't do anything without the solenoid clicking as well. I suppose it is possible that the half witted people who kept trying to jump start me banging the starter with a hammer could have damaged the solenoid, but I couldn't even understand or barely communicate with them. After they said it was my fuel pump, I told them to get away from my car though because that pretty much means they are clueless.

Please list a full summary of the aftermarket wiring modifications you (or others) have made. Is it _just_ the stereo system? Was there a remote starter at one time?

Did you try jumping out the starter solenoid? Will it crank if you do this?

An easy way to test for fuel pump/fuel pressure - turn the key on, then press in the middle of the schrader valve on the fuel rail. It should spray gas out of that valve.

I think you need to come up with a simple troubleshooting strategy. Jumping around assuming all of these problems that may or may not exist is costing you alot of time and maybe money. first. you must get the car ro crank again. If you dont have a fully charged battery, then fully charge it. Once battery is fully charged, check wiring at starter for 12v. A test light will work to see if power is getting to the starter. Check the large battery wire (should be 12v all the time). If that has power then proceed to the small wire (ignition). You will need a friend to turn key to crank position for this test. If 12v exist at this point, theres a good chance the starter is bad. If no power at small wire then ignition switch could be fried. I believe this to be a common problem with Rivs but dont assume thie switch is bad without tfirst doing a few basic tests. Don't over think this. Keep your diagnosis simple and eliminate things one at a time.
- fully charge battery
-test for 12v at starter large wire
- test for 12v at starter small wire while friend holds key to crank
Post what you find after these simple tests and someone will be able to help you to proceed with the next steps.
Good luck and be safe when laying under your car. Jack stands or good blocking materials or both. Never trust a floor jack by itself.

bigdave wrote:

I think you need to come up with a simple troubleshooting strategy. Jumping around assuming all of these problems that may or may not exist is costing you alot of time and maybe money. first. you must get the car ro crank again. If you dont have a fully charged battery, then fully charge it. Once battery is fully charged, check wiring at starter for 12v. A test light will work to see if power is getting to the starter. Check the large battery wire (should be 12v all the time). If that has power then proceed to the small wire (ignition). You will need a friend to turn key to crank position for this test. If 12v exist at this point, theres a good chance the starter is bad. If no power at small wire then ignition switch could be fried. I believe this to be a common problem with Rivs but dont assume thie switch is bad without tfirst doing a few basic tests. Don't over think this. Keep your diagnosis simple and eliminate things one at a time.
- fully charge battery
-test for 12v at starter large wire
- test for 12v at starter small wire while friend holds key to crank
Post what you find after these simple tests and someone will be able to help you to proceed with the next steps.
Good luck and be safe when laying under your car. Jack stands or good blocking materials or both. Never trust a floor jack by itself.

The thing that sucks is that I'm 80 miles from my home which has my battery charger. I guess i can try carrying my 50 pound? Battery half a mile to the local car shop and ask them if they can charge and or load test I, or I can buy another charger from Walmart if i can get a ride

What do you mean by large and small wire? The small one goes to the little box under the back seat and the big one goes through the firewall into the battery terminal in the engine bay?

I'm refering to the wires right at the starter. Large one 12v supply from battery. Small one signal from ignition switch. Test them at the starter.

The VATS system. When you put the key and it doesnt start, you have power to the radio and windows and stuff, right? also is the "security" light solid? Watch that light, it will go off in 3-5 minutes and youll be able to start it.

I had this problem with my car and i fought it for years because it was vary inconsistent. The dealer ship wanted 300 to replace the tumbler and security stuff. I bypassed it for .50 cents and its working fine.

If thats it let me know and i can help you out with some information.

bigdave wrote:

I think you need to come up with a simple troubleshooting strategy. Jumping around assuming all of these problems that may or may not exist is costing you alot of time and maybe money. first. you must get the car ro crank again. If you dont have a fully charged battery, then fully charge it. Once battery is fully charged, check wiring at starter for 12v. A test light will work to see if power is getting to the starter. Check the large battery wire (should be 12v all the time). If that has power then proceed to the small wire (ignition). You will need a friend to turn key to crank position for this test. If 12v exist at this point, theres a good chance the starter is bad. If no power at small wire then ignition switch could be fried. I believe this to be a common problem with Rivs but dont assume thie switch is bad without tfirst doing a few basic tests. Don't over think this. Keep your diagnosis simple and eliminate things one at a time.
- fully charge battery
-test for 12v at starter large wire
- test for 12v at starter small wire while friend holds key to crank
Post what you find after these simple tests and someone will be able to help you to proceed with the next steps.
Good luck and be safe when laying under your car. Jack stands or good blocking materials or both. Never trust a floor jack by itself.

Hey Corey I re-read this later part of the thread. At some point you have to troubleshoot, I'd just start by doing what Dave wrote and take it from there. The other thing - I'd check those splices where you wired in halogen lights and what not, for shorts.

Albert

Turns out my starter is dead. I can save a good chunk of change by swapping the working starter on the 95 Buick if it will work.

Also I'm pretty sure my alternator is taking a shit even if I get 14v out of it. My sound system always has been dimming the lights lately and the sound system drains the battery faster than the alternator charges it. A master technician also thinks my alternator is probably going bad too. Battery light on the gauge also lights up which I'm told has only to do with the charging system. I don't care if the alternator says 14v, there's no way in he'll a 140 amp alternator is going to be overpowered by my garbage 800 watt sound system.

So Uhh, the 95 has the same alternator specs right?

Yes it will. All Rivs 95 -99 use the same starter. As do most GMs of those years. A visual inspection will confirm. Did you ever test for power at the starter?

ebracing20 wrote:

The VATS system. When you put the key and it doesnt start, you have power to the radio and windows and stuff, right? also is the "security" light solid? Watch that light, it will go off in 3-5 minutes and youll be able to start it.

I had this problem with my car and i fought it for years because it was vary inconsistent. The dealer ship wanted 300 to replace the tumbler and security stuff. I bypassed it for .50 cents and its working fine.

If thats it let me know and i can help you out with some information.

I'd love to know how to bypass this. I was thinking about a push start system because my step dad who's a master tech tells me the security system has been shutting off my fuel pump which is why my car could crank over all it wanted and not start. Dirty throttle body and manifold probably doesn't help either.

My starter is definitely dead, my step dad and I looked at after I jacked the car up. I'm passed I wasted like 30 bucks to have some assholes car service place charge my battery for an hour and carrying a 55 pound battery 2 miles but my fault for leaving the charger home. I got real lucky my step dad owns a towing company too because an 80 mile tow charge would suck. Also very lucky about the extra parts Buick for $500 that has already made much more than its price back with knowledge and parts.

I'm gunna swap starters tomorrow morning and have the extra alternator load tested. Everything should work fine. I will also look for the short circuit that I know is using much less than 5 amps of power because my trickle charger charged through it no problem overnight. The short can't be the lights due to that and they all work. It's probably either somewhere in the seat controls or more likely the horn, but I will indeed out soon. Thanks for all the help guys

Is your security lamp flashing when you try to start? The security module doesn't cut fuel, it prevents current from reaching the starter. If security were causing this, you'd get no response when turning the key, not even a click.

You haven't posted results to any of the troubleshooting requests we've listed, so it's really hard to offer any more advice as to what you might need to do next.

Thank you Derek!

deekster_caddy wrote:

You haven't posted results to any of the troubleshooting requests we've listed, so it's really hard to offer any more advice as to what you might need to do next.

true that...

hope things are gong better Corey...

by the way - push-to-start = bad idea given the electrical gremlins you are chasing already.

I spent way longer replacing my starter today than it should have taken. Maybe I'm retarded, maybe it was the migraine or maybe I'm somehow too fat to fit under my car being 6ft tall and 147 pounds with a 27 inch waist. Somehow I could barely fit under the car when I jacked it as high as I could with a floor jack using a jack stand too. Maybe my chest got bigger, dunno but it was 42 inches last I checked. I don't ever wanna work under my car again without a hydraulic lift. This is the first time I've ever changed a starter.

I'll make a write up of it tomorrow. Once I figured out exactly how it's put together though, the starter came out of parts Buick in less than 5 minutes. I could barely move under the car at all though so I had to be a contortionist just to put the replacement in. The jack stand on parts Buick nearly had the car crush me too. It kept sinking and the jack stand ended up 5 inches into the dirt so I had to take the starter out by feel alone. Digging out the jack stand sucked too. I bet if i had a hydraulic car lift, I could have done it in 10 mins assuming I have the replacement part waiting next to me Imo, but it took me about 2 hours because it was insanely hard to move at all.

The replacement starter is a good bit smaller than the one I took off. Parts Buick should have the same model starter but the plastic cover was gone and the teeth of this starter look brand new so I'm thinking it's a pretty new starter non OEM. It started the 95 s/c Buick no problem. My engine now cranks over again indefinitely really fast and won't start at all. Starting fluid won't help at all. Either my fuel pump is bad, spark plugs, or my manifold and throttle body are so filthy that it's not getting the right fuel mixture. I don't see any other possibility.

So next, turn the key to "on" - do not bother starting - and see what is the fuel pressure at the fuel rail. If you do not know how to do that'd what you do is borrow gauge from dad (master much will have one or know how to get) and measure at the schraeder fitting.

Ok, will do. Does anyone happen to know what the specs on the fuel pressure should be? Also I think I should replace the fuel filter. Could be pretty clogged after 30,000 miles. Never even thought of that come to think of it.

So I guess later in the morning I'll check the fuel filter then see about the fuel pump. If my fuel pump is bad, will the fuel pump off the 95 supercharged Buick fit?

Also the alternator off the parts Buick tested good. I'm almost positive that my alternator is going out. There's no possible way a 140 amp alternator should be drained too fast from a garbage 800 watt sound system. 140 amps would need a very serious sound system to overpower it Imo. It's always put out 14v but I don't trust just voltage. I believe it's not pushing the amps out that it should and that's why my battery got killed and low voltage battery combine with the fact that my car turns over forever without starting intermittently and always has since I got it probably killed that starter. By the way the new starter sounds much much smoother, and I know it's installed right because me being clumsy with a migraine nicked the teeth a tiny bit trying to start it. Didn't wanna crank it long. That killed my old starter and my new one is alot smaller.


Alternators on the cars are different part numbers but same amps. With the 95 Buick alternator fit my L36 97 Riv?

The teeth on my starter cog on the flywheel are worn but the ones on the parts Buick look brand new. Is that swappable in the future?

Sorry about all these questions. And I really appreciate help

So I went this morning without my migraine to try and start it and noticed my fuel pump is sounding really weird. It sounds more like a weird car idling sound than a fuel pump. Guess I need to swap that over too. Seriously is my entire car trying to break on me? Every time I fix something, something else breaks. If I wasn't doing everything myself and have this parts buick then I'd be paying thousands out the ass to keep my car and it would be a money pit and I'd have been retarded to keep it.

And I still ask myself it it's actually worth having at this point, but my dumbass is too curious to get rid of it and wants it as a guinea pig to learn, plus I really like this car, so I'm a dumbass for investing this much effort in a crappy $700 car with everything but the actual engine breaking on me. I swear everything will fall out of this car, but the engine would probably still run fine just to make fun of me

I dunno maybe I'm just losing some hope after spending over a month on and off restoring my interior, having random electrical problems everywhere and now all this shit, and being financially poor doesn't help either. If I didn't have Parts Buick then I'd have had to have this car either sit in a shed for years or get rid of it.