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 4t65...what commands 4th gear?

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dreww
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PostSubject: 4t65...what commands 4th gear?   Mon Aug 02, 2010 8:24 pm

ok for anyone following my trans nightmare thread, ive put a 4t65 in a 96 riv which came stock with a 4t60.

now my problem is it wont shift into 4th. hasnt since i installed it. it was completely rebuilt. but what commands 4th gear? i see a 1-2 solenoid, a 2-3 solenoid, but what electronically shits into 4th?

i asked the powertuner site....but all they say is the trans range switch. iive replaced that and im sure thats not it. every gear shifts perfect but it wont command 4th. help?
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PostSubject: Re: 4t65...what commands 4th gear?   Mon Aug 02, 2010 10:13 pm

Do you mean 4th with overdrive(TCC)? My 4T60 never uses it's 4th gear unless it's with overdrive, so it goes 1-2-3-3OD-4OD.
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PostSubject: Re: 4t65...what commands 4th gear?   Mon Aug 02, 2010 10:27 pm

IBx1 wrote:
Do you mean 4th with overdrive(TCC)? My 4T60 never uses it's 4th gear unless it's with overdrive, so it goes 1-2-3-3OD-4OD.

OK, for the last time:

The Torque Converter Clutch is just that, a clutch that makes a solid connection through the fluid coupling.
4th gear is overdrive, a GEAR in the transmission whose ratio is numerically lower than 1:1, or "taller" than direct drive. 3rd gear is 1:1, and 4th/OD is overdrive, somewhere around 0.7:1... The TCC can engage in either 3rd or 4th, but it is a totally separate entity from OD.

Sorry to sound so "Rickish", but this blurring of the transmission functions drives me nuts... I've also had a lousy day, and my own 4th gear has started to chatter upon engagement. mad
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PostSubject: Re: 4t65...what commands 4th gear?   Mon Aug 02, 2010 10:33 pm

Either way, 4th gear does not operate without TCC on my car. I get 3 gears, then 2 more with TCC.
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PostSubject: Re: 4t65...what commands 4th gear?   Mon Aug 02, 2010 10:43 pm

IBx1 wrote:
Either way, 4th gear does not operate without TCC on my car. I get 3 gears, then 2 more with TCC.
Ilan, Just give it up. Period.

You obviously have no clue how the mechanical's work inside the transmission, no matter how hard you try, or how much you think you know, you don't have a clue, so forget about it.

Maybe one of these years in school it will come to you and the proverbial Light Bulb will go off. Until then, for God's sake, for our sake, give it up.

Besides, it's soon, ----Hopefully not too much sooner, NOT TO BE YOUR CAR Anyway. SO just STOP. Please.
Clearly your giving more than me a friggin headache.

And because of you, I am now infamous.

The term "Rickish" has been coined.

And I do blame it on you. So beware.
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PostSubject: Re: 4t65...what commands 4th gear?   Mon Aug 02, 2010 10:51 pm

IBx1 wrote:
Either way, 4th gear does not operate without TCC on my car. I get 3 gears, then 2 more with TCC.

NO YOU DON'T!! Stop disseminating disinformation!

What the hell do you think 4T60-E stands for? You have FOUR gears and a TCC. Just because the tachometer moves doesn't mean you have another gear. You have 4 gears in the gearbox, and a TCC in the torque converter that applies in either 3rd or 4th gear...

If your eyes are glued to the tach, this is what you're seeing:
- 1st gear
- 2nd gear
- 3rd gear without converter lockup
- Converter lockup
- 4th gear without converter lockup
- Converter lockup

Do we understand the technical realities now?
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PostSubject: Re: 4t65...what commands 4th gear?   Mon Aug 02, 2010 10:57 pm

I have 4th gear for the half second it takes for the converter to lock up. I know how an automatic transmission works. When the transmission goes from 3rdTCC to 4thTCC it gets out of lockup in 3rd then locks down to 4th almost immediately. You don't get 4th by itself as a drivable gear.
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PostSubject: Re: 4t65...what commands 4th gear?   Mon Aug 02, 2010 11:02 pm

You truly are too stupid to understand aren't you.

And I am not afraid of saying that because you have proven it.
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PostSubject: Re: 4t65...what commands 4th gear?   Mon Aug 02, 2010 11:03 pm

IBx1 wrote:
You don't get 4th by itself as a drivable gear.

Depends on load and throttle position... just like 3rd. But now you're making my own argument for me - you only have four gears.
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PostSubject: Re: 4t65...what commands 4th gear?   Mon Aug 02, 2010 11:05 pm

Just make the trade and go away.

I ran out of aspirin and other more worthy pain relievers for your non-sense.
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PostSubject: Re: 4t65...what commands 4th gear?   Mon Aug 02, 2010 11:16 pm

ok, great arguement guys, but....

no one really answered my question.

i will be the first to admit, despite recently learning alot about trans, im still very unknowledgeable.

so what are possible culprits as to why my car is not shifting into 4th? im thinking something electrical as all mechanical has been rebuilt.
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PostSubject: Re: 4t65...what commands 4th gear?   Mon Aug 02, 2010 11:27 pm

Sorry we hijacked your thread, but whenever someone does major surgery like that, a lot of certainty goes out the window... You mentioned the solenoids - are you looking at a '97+ manual?
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PostSubject: Re: 4t65...what commands 4th gear?   Mon Aug 02, 2010 11:31 pm

Drew,
After everything you have been through and learned in the process of doing it, what would make you think us knuckleheads would have a clue.
Semi-joking here, but seriously, I think you are probably more qualified to answer your own questions than we are or at least can answer some of ours - now. You know what i mean.
Maybe there is a tranny guy on here that can help....

What ever happened to James from Hangover Park in IL that was doing the whipple and trans conversion.? He sort of fell off the map.
Did you ever get to talk directly with him about his experiences over the phone by any chance.
Just wondering if he was able to help at all and if they are even still playing around with that car.?
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PostSubject: Re: 4t65...what commands 4th gear?   Tue Aug 03, 2010 12:12 am

I'm not an expert on the hydraulics, but I'm looking at the electronic GM SPO manual and some of your confusion may come from the fact that there aren't as many solenoids as you think... Both in text and in diagrams they refer to the "1-2, 3-4 Shift Solenoid (SS) Valve Assembly" as a single unit. So, there are only that one and the 2-3 SS.

I don't pretend to understand this brevity, but for what it's worth, this is the sequence they give for first entering 4th gear:

Overdrive Range, Fourth Gear - Torque Converter Clutch (TCC) Not Applied

As the speed of the vehicle continues to increase, the powertrain control module (PCM) monitors the input signals from various engine and transmission sensors. The PCM uses this data to energize the 1-2, 3-4 shift solenoid (SS) valve in order to shift the transmission into fourth gear at the appropriate time.

1-2, 3-4 Shift Solenoid (SS) Valve (315)
Energizes to prevent fluid from exhausting out of the line passage and the 1-2, 3-4 signal fluid passage.

1-2 Shift Valve (318)
Is held against 1-2, 3-4 signal fluid pressure by spring pressure and 2-3 off signal fluid pressure at the end of the valve.

3-4 Shift Valve (362)
When 1-2, 3-4 signal fluid shifts the 3-4 shift valve against spring force, it allows 3rd fluid to enter the 4th clutch fluid passage. 4th clutch fluid is forced through a feed orifice before stroking the 3-4 accumulator piston (428) and applying the fourth clutch.

Fourth Clutch
4th Clutch fluid pressure applies the fourth clutch to shift the transmission to fourth gear.

Third Clutch
Remains applied, but is ineffective.

Third Roller Clutch
Overruns as fourth clutch is applied. In third gear, the input clutch is released allowing input clutch apply fluid to exhaust through the 3-4 shift valve (362) into the input clutch feed passage. At the 2-3 shift valve (357), exhausting input clutch apply fluid is directed into the D3 passage and out the manual valve (404).

Second Clutch
Remains applied.

Forward Band
Remains applied, but is ineffective.

1-2 Support Roller Clutch
Continues to overrun.

3-4 Accumulator
4th clutch fluid is also routed to the 3-4 accumulator piston. 4th clutch fluid pressure moves the piston against spring force and 3-4 accumulator feed fluid pressure. This action absorbs initial 4th clutch fluid pressure to cushion the 4th clutch apply. The movement of the 3-4 accumulator piston forces some accumulator fluid out of the accumulator.

3-4 Accumulator Valve
Excess 3-4 accumulator feed fluid is routed back to the 3-4 accumulator valve. This fluid pressure moves the accumulator valve against spring force and torque signal fluid pressure to regulate the exhaust of excess accumulator fluid. This regulation provides additional control for the fourth clutch apply.

Torque Converter Clutch
TCC apply could vary depending on vehicle application and may be calibrated to apply in Overdrive Range -- Fourth Gear.

Transmission Fluid Pressure (TFP) Manual Valve Position Switch
Release fluid pressure routed to the TFP manual valve position switch signals the PCM that the TCC is released.

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PostSubject: Re: 4t65...what commands 4th gear?   Tue Aug 03, 2010 12:57 am

I'm sorry for the discussion taking up your thread, but I was trying to point out that my transmission doesn't shift into 4th by itself without immediately going to TCC. I was trying to find out if that was your problem(which is normal operation for me), or if you don't get 4th at all TCC or not.
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PostSubject: Re: 4t65...what commands 4th gear?   Tue Aug 03, 2010 1:46 am

I know where you're coming from, Ilan. These guys are not thinking in terms of effective gears, they're thinking literal gears. They just figure you don't know how to count, but I think most everyone knows that a 4 speed transmission has 4 speeds (gears). And while technically TCC lock-up and OD are not interchangeable, the terms do go hand in hand in the real world. Most people assume the car has finally reached OD once the TCC engages, and for good reason. Effectively, you aren't overdriving as much until the TCC engages. RPMs tell this story very well.

Ilan is correct that our cars don't spend more than 1% of the time in 4th gear without TCC lock-up. With stock PCM program, it's actually very difficult to shake the TCC engagement without downshifting into 3rd. So I see where he's coming from there.

Effectively, our cars do have a 5th gear, if you tune the shift points to allow use of 4th gear without TCC lock-up. It's not an extra gear for the sake of increasing top-speed, but it does act very much like an overdrive gear on a manual, used for getting better economy. It's hard to convince someone who's thinking technically, but graphing RPMs vs. speed & time, the result is our transmissions do operate in 5 effective speeds.

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PostSubject: Re: 4t65...what commands 4th gear?   Tue Aug 03, 2010 1:50 am

Thanks for clarifying, AA. It would be smart of them to give us a usable 4th gear after 3rd, before 3rdTCC because my car'll get into 3rd at 20 or so mph then carry that all the way up until TCC @ 41mph. Sure the transmission would have to go from 4 back to 3 to engage 3rdTCC, but the town-driving fuel savings would be worth it. It wouldn't be outlandish to say you could get an extra 2 or so mpg in real world driving that way.

So, to the topic starter, does your car go into 4th TCC?
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PostSubject: Re: 4t65...what commands 4th gear?   Tue Aug 03, 2010 2:08 am

IBx1 wrote:
I'm sorry for the discussion taking up your thread, but I was trying to point out that my transmission doesn't shift into 4th by itself without immediately going to TCC. I was trying to find out if that was your problem(which is normal operation for me), or if you don't get 4th at all TCC or not.
If your sorry about hijacking Drew post, then just don't post in this topic. It's as simple as that.

And what the hell are you two doing anyway.

All i read and heard was a bunch of useless babbling, etc,etc,etc.
We all know this shit, what's all the pandering about.
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PostSubject: Re: 4t65...what commands 4th gear?   Tue Aug 03, 2010 2:53 am

Rick wrote: "And because of you, I am now infamous"


stop pretending. you love the shemozzle!
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PostSubject: Re: 4t65...what commands 4th gear?   Tue Aug 03, 2010 3:00 am

Time for me to sign out.

It's too late on the right coast and i don't have a witty retort.

Definitely a sign to go to bed.
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PostSubject: Re: 4t65...what commands 4th gear?   Tue Aug 03, 2010 3:02 am

sayonara from the Best coast!
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PostSubject: Re: 4t65...what commands 4th gear?   Tue Aug 03, 2010 3:16 am

LMAO at the back and forth here.

Ilan: Does your car actually go into 3rd at 20mph? I wasn't aware the trans in these cars (1995) does that so quick. Not saying it's wrong... just didn't know. frown Mine hits third around 25 but that's the 65e. Probably completely different.
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PostSubject: Re: 4t65...what commands 4th gear?   Tue Aug 03, 2010 3:40 am

DEMonte1997 wrote:
LMAO at the back and forth here.

Ilan: Does your car actually go into 3rd at 20mph? I wasn't aware the trans in these cars (1995) does that so quick. Not saying it's wrong... just didn't know. frown Mine hits third around 25 but that's the 65e. Probably completely different.
I had to come back for a minute to shut everything down,

But to answer your question: How we he really know, He never drives the damn thing.

OK, I'm really gone now.
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PostSubject: Re: 4t65...what commands 4th gear?   Tue Aug 03, 2010 8:22 am

I actually drive the Riv more than ever, and while it may not be exactly at 20mph, it gets into 3rd very quickly.
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PostSubject: Re: 4t65...what commands 4th gear?   Tue Aug 03, 2010 4:59 pm

wow, i think im more confused.

im taking the car to the guy who built the trans so he can double check my wiring and maybe figure out this nightmare.

thx to those who responded
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