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 Fuel pump/ cell options?

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Spacecowboy067
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Fuel pump/ cell options? Empty
PostSubject: Fuel pump/ cell options?   Fuel pump/ cell options? EmptyTue Jan 03, 2023 12:58 am

Are there any other fuel pump/ external tank and pumps commonly used in our cars?

I've tried a Quantum pump and 2 different Walbro 255s and all seem to fail several months later. I'm tired of my car dying from lack of fuel pressure out of nowhere.
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LARRY70GS
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Fuel pump/ cell options? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Fuel pump/ cell options?   Fuel pump/ cell options? EmptyTue Jan 03, 2023 9:13 am

The Riviera like most modern FI cars, uses an in tank pump. External pumps are not a viable option IMO. Electric pumps are great at pushing, but not sucking. If you mount an external pump, it needs to be gravity fed. That means mounting it very low.

Why are you not using the stock pump?

_________________
98 Riviera SC3800  All stock except gutted air box.
1970 Buick GS455 Stage1, TSP built 470BBB, 602HP/589TQ
Best MPH, 116.06 MPH, Best ET, 11.54
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHCda-t_Jls
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfT2tEO4XcU
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Spacecowboy067
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Fuel pump/ cell options? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Fuel pump/ cell options?   Fuel pump/ cell options? EmptyTue Jan 03, 2023 1:16 pm

I'm running E85 with bigger injectors and other goodies, upgraded the pump so it could handle the fueling, but for some reason they keep failing after several months.
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LARRY70GS
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Fuel pump/ cell options? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Fuel pump/ cell options?   Fuel pump/ cell options? EmptyTue Jan 03, 2023 5:00 pm

Spacecowboy067 wrote:
I'm running E85 with bigger injectors and other goodies, upgraded the pump so it could handle the fueling, but for some reason they keep failing after several months.

OK, is it in tank, or external? Might need a higher capacity pump if you are overworking it.

_________________
98 Riviera SC3800  All stock except gutted air box.
1970 Buick GS455 Stage1, TSP built 470BBB, 602HP/589TQ
Best MPH, 116.06 MPH, Best ET, 11.54
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHCda-t_Jls
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfT2tEO4XcU
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Spacecowboy067
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Spacecowboy067


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Fuel pump/ cell options? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Fuel pump/ cell options?   Fuel pump/ cell options? EmptyTue Jan 03, 2023 5:05 pm

No it's in tank, in the same pump housing as OEM
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LARRY70GS
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LARRY70GS


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Fuel pump/ cell options? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Fuel pump/ cell options?   Fuel pump/ cell options? EmptyTue Jan 03, 2023 5:09 pm

Spacecowboy067 wrote:
No it's in tank, in the same pump housing as OEM


Well, it takes a lot more E85 because of the alcohol, so, maybe you are overworking the pump.

_________________
98 Riviera SC3800  All stock except gutted air box.
1970 Buick GS455 Stage1, TSP built 470BBB, 602HP/589TQ
Best MPH, 116.06 MPH, Best ET, 11.54
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHCda-t_Jls
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfT2tEO4XcU
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Spacecowboy067
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Fuel pump/ cell options? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Fuel pump/ cell options?   Fuel pump/ cell options? EmptyTue Jan 03, 2023 5:15 pm

Yeah that's why I moved up from OEM for sure, figured the Walbro 255 would handle it but it's dead again. Looks like I'll just need a stronger pump then? Like a 340lph pump?
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LARRY70GS
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LARRY70GS


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Fuel pump/ cell options? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Fuel pump/ cell options?   Fuel pump/ cell options? EmptyTue Jan 03, 2023 5:38 pm


_________________
98 Riviera SC3800  All stock except gutted air box.
1970 Buick GS455 Stage1, TSP built 470BBB, 602HP/589TQ
Best MPH, 116.06 MPH, Best ET, 11.54
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHCda-t_Jls
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfT2tEO4XcU
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Jack the R
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Jack the R


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Fuel pump/ cell options? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Fuel pump/ cell options?   Fuel pump/ cell options? EmptyWed Jan 04, 2023 1:57 am

Looking on the Walbro page, they have a warning about counterfeit pumps and advise to only buy from authorized dealers - Link

I've had no problems with mine. I can't remember who I bought it from, but it was either ZZP, Intense Racing, or W Body Store.

I vaguely remember reading some posts about using an e85 specific pump, but I could be 110% misremembering that.

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Spacecowboy067
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Fuel pump/ cell options? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Fuel pump/ cell options?   Fuel pump/ cell options? EmptyWed Jan 04, 2023 2:07 am

Jack the R wrote:
Looking on the Walbro page, they have a warning about counterfeit pumps and advise to only buy from authorized dealers - Link

I've had no problems with mine.  I can't remember who I bought it from, but it was either ZZP, Intense Racing, or W Body Store.  

I vaguely remember reading some posts about using an e85 specific pump, but I could be 110% misremembering that.  


Yeah first mistake was ebay, that Walbro was almost certainly fake or a different brand in disguise. The second I bought from a genuine Walbro dealer, so idk if they've dropped in quality or what but from what I hear from other guys, Walbro doesn't seem to make em like that used to. I'm thinking about putting in an AEM 320lph pump.

Also thinking about doing a pump rewire just in case it's not getting enough voltage. How would I do that with a Riviera, or is there a write-up on how to do it already?
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Jack the R
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PostSubject: Re: Fuel pump/ cell options?   Fuel pump/ cell options? EmptyWed Jan 04, 2023 1:45 pm

At this point, PM Turtleman.

The 2nd pump might have been a return with a counterfeit pump swapped in.

The entire parts supply chain is fucked ATM as well. Try getting a good cam or lifters, it's damn near impossible. This is a terrible time to be repairing a car, let alone modding one.

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Spacecowboy067
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Fuel pump/ cell options? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Fuel pump/ cell options?   Fuel pump/ cell options? EmptyWed Jan 04, 2023 2:09 pm

Possible yeah. Walbro says they wanna test it to make sure the pump itself failed, not user error/improper installation. Ran pretty good for several months so I think I put it in just fine but man that thing was whining harder than my supercharger up front last I ran it lol.
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Jack the R
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PostSubject: Re: Fuel pump/ cell options?   Fuel pump/ cell options? EmptyThu Jan 05, 2023 10:27 am

The Walbro is a little loud, but not that loud. I'd take that as an indicator of a counterfeit. IIRC Walbro doesn't have a warranty on their pump because "the design can't fail." Then again, maybe they're looking at your pump because they are failing and Walbro has to figure out who the bad supplier is.

It sucks that you have to have this experience with such a hard part to change, but everyone's going through it now. I've read several cases of car and engine builders firing up brand new performance motors just to have a lifter die in half an hour. All of a sudden, good companies that have been making cams and lifters for decades can't seem to figure out how to do it.
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albertj
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PostSubject: Re: Fuel pump/ cell options?   Fuel pump/ cell options? EmptyThu Jan 05, 2023 9:49 pm

Jack the R wrote:
The Walbro is a little loud, but not that loud.  I'd take that as an indicator of a counterfeit.  IIRC Walbro doesn't have a warranty on their pump because "the design can't fail."  Then again, maybe they're looking at your pump because they are failing and Walbro has to figure out who the bad supplier is.  

It sucks that you have to have this experience with such a hard part to change, but everyone's going through it now.  I've read several cases of car and engine builders firing up brand new performance motors just to have a lifter die in half an hour.  All of a sudden, good companies that have been making cams and lifters for decades can't seem to figure out how to do it.

blame weed.
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turtleman
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Fuel pump/ cell options? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Fuel pump/ cell options?   Fuel pump/ cell options? EmptyThu Jan 05, 2023 11:23 pm

I used a couple different older 255 hp walbros and they were very good to me and i would say they were a little bit quieter than the stock pump if anything dunno

Long ago I did do a voltage drop test and found that with the walbro, which has a higher current draw than a stock pump, did show some voltage drop on the factory wiring but not that bad (don't remember but my worthless memory tells me < .5v), better than the w-body people have it. I still saw it worthwhile to do a rewire because some of the wiring is very good - 12 or 14 gauge with pretty heavy pins on the factory 2-speed pwm controller but if you have a 97-down riv, goes down to puny wires underneath the car. 98-99 has better wiring but regardless of year, you have those undersized 150 series terminals at the in-tank assembly which kinda sucks. Still, I ran my walbro 255 with that stock plug without problems for years.
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Spacecowboy067
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Fuel pump/ cell options? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Fuel pump/ cell options?   Fuel pump/ cell options? EmptyFri Jan 06, 2023 12:00 am

turtleman wrote:
I used a couple different older 255 hp walbros and they were very good to me and i would say they were a little bit quieter than the stock pump if anything dunno

Long ago I did do a voltage drop test and found that with the walbro, which has a higher current draw than a stock pump, did show some voltage drop on the factory wiring but not that bad (don't remember but my worthless memory tells me < .5v), better than the w-body people have it. I still saw it worthwhile to do a rewire because some of the wiring is very good - 12 or 14 gauge with pretty heavy pins on the factory 2-speed pwm controller but if you have a 97-down riv, goes down to puny wires underneath the car. 98-99 has better wiring but regardless of year, you have those undersized 150 series terminals at the in-tank assembly which kinda sucks. Still, I ran my walbro 255 with that stock plug without problems for years.

So how would I go about a rewire? Just replace the current wires with thicker gauge stuff? Reroute it to give it a shorter path? Thanks
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Jack the R
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Fuel pump/ cell options? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Fuel pump/ cell options?   Fuel pump/ cell options? EmptyFri Jan 06, 2023 1:53 am

turtleman wrote:
goes down to puny wires underneath the car.



Fuel pump/ cell options? Oh-bother


Well, no problems with the smaller wires here yet but I'm still running the stock injectors.
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turtleman
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Fuel pump/ cell options? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Fuel pump/ cell options?   Fuel pump/ cell options? EmptyFri Jan 06, 2023 9:40 am

Spacecowboy067 wrote:
turtleman wrote:
I used a couple different older 255 hp walbros and they were very good to me and i would say they were a little bit quieter than the stock pump if anything dunno

Long ago I did do a voltage drop test and found that with the walbro, which has a higher current draw than a stock pump, did show some voltage drop on the factory wiring but not that bad (don't remember but my worthless memory tells me < .5v), better than the w-body people have it. I still saw it worthwhile to do a rewire because some of the wiring is very good - 12 or 14 gauge with pretty heavy pins on the factory 2-speed pwm controller but if you have a 97-down riv, goes down to puny wires underneath the car. 98-99 has better wiring but regardless of year, you have those undersized 150 series terminals at the in-tank assembly which kinda sucks. Still, I ran my walbro 255 with that stock plug without problems for years.

So how would I go about a rewire? Just replace the current wires with thicker gauge stuff? Reroute it to give it a shorter path? Thanks

What year is your riv?
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turtleman
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Fuel pump/ cell options? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Fuel pump/ cell options?   Fuel pump/ cell options? EmptyFri Jan 06, 2023 9:50 am

Jack the R wrote:
turtleman wrote:
goes down to puny wires underneath the car.



Fuel pump/ cell options? Oh-bother


Well, no problems with the smaller wires here yet but I'm still running the stock injectors.

Stock fuel injectors I don't think you've got anything to worry about.
The oem pump has a lower current draw than any of the higher output pumps I know of so the voltage drop would not be as much of an issue. The walbro 255 is a gerotor type so it uses more power even within the same fuel demands. That's why the vendors always promote the re-wire with the purchase of the walbro pump upgrade, especially for the w-body people with lousier factory wiring to start with.
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Spacecowboy067
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Fuel pump/ cell options? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Fuel pump/ cell options?   Fuel pump/ cell options? EmptyFri Jan 06, 2023 9:51 am

turtleman wrote:
Spacecowboy067 wrote:
turtleman wrote:
I used a couple different older 255 hp walbros and they were very good to me and i would say they were a little bit quieter than the stock pump if anything dunno

Long ago I did do a voltage drop test and found that with the walbro, which has a higher current draw than a stock pump, did show some voltage drop on the factory wiring but not that bad (don't remember but my worthless memory tells me < .5v), better than the w-body people have it. I still saw it worthwhile to do a rewire because some of the wiring is very good - 12 or 14 gauge with pretty heavy pins on the factory 2-speed pwm controller but if you have a 97-down riv, goes down to puny wires underneath the car. 98-99 has better wiring but regardless of year, you have those undersized 150 series terminals at the in-tank assembly which kinda sucks. Still, I ran my walbro 255 with that stock plug without problems for years.

So how would I go about a rewire? Just replace the current wires with thicker gauge stuff? Reroute it to give it a shorter path? Thanks

What year is your riv?

97
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turtleman
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Fuel pump/ cell options? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Fuel pump/ cell options?   Fuel pump/ cell options? EmptyFri Jan 06, 2023 1:09 pm

Maybe I'll try to dig up some pictures at some point but basically I'd replace the two pump wires from the in-tank assembly to at least the connector underneath the car which is on the driver side kinda behind the back seat wiring passthru and in front of the gas tank. That wiring leads into the trunk to connect to the fuel pump speed control module which will be on the driver side for 1997. You're just looking to replace that wiring with heavier gauge - at least 14 gauge. The speed control module provides a discrete power and ground to the pump btw. Then you can just upgrade the power feed and ground wires to that speed control module that comes from the fuel pump relay in the back seat fuse box. That power feed wire isn't too bad but the ground kinda sucks - shared with a bunch of other stuff in the wiring looms as per usual. So I cut that ground wire somewhere and ran it to the battery. A good chassis ground is fine but the battery is right in that area anyway so that's what I did.

It's also a very good idea to change out the plastic bulkhead connector at the top of the fuel pump assembly with a new one that has the wider 280 series terminals for the fuel pump at least on the outside. I think the underside (inside of the tank) are the same either way. You often see these connections provided with new aftermarket and sometimes oem fuel pumps with a pigtail you're supposed to connect up.

Just for the sake of pointing it out for others, as I said, the 98-99 riv's are a little different. The wiring passthru that goes underneath the rear seat on the driver side is eliminated so the wiring going from the speed control module located on the passenger side of the trunk area just goes right through the quarter panel inner shell in the same area to get outside and route to the gas tank. Therefore there's no outside electrical connector where the wiring dramatically reduces in gauge size.

This is all just off memory so I'm sorry if you find something wrong but that should be the jest of it. I'll edit if I find mistakes.
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Jack the R
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Fuel pump/ cell options? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Fuel pump/ cell options?   Fuel pump/ cell options? EmptyFri Jan 06, 2023 9:20 pm

turtleman wrote:
Jack the R wrote:
turtleman wrote:
goes down to puny wires underneath the car.



Fuel pump/ cell options? Oh-bother


Well, no problems with the smaller wires here yet but I'm still running the stock injectors.

Stock fuel injectors I don't think you've got anything to worry about.
The oem pump has a lower current draw than any of the higher output pumps I know of so the voltage drop would not be as much of an issue. The walbro 255 is a gerotor type so it uses more power even within the same fuel demands.

I do have the Walbro 255 in a 97, but injectors are stock.
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Spacecowboy067
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Fuel pump/ cell options? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Fuel pump/ cell options?   Fuel pump/ cell options? EmptySat Jan 07, 2023 5:43 am

turtleman wrote:
Maybe I'll try to dig up some pictures at some point but basically I'd replace the two pump wires from the in-tank assembly to at least the connector underneath the car which is on the driver side kinda behind the back seat wiring passthru and in front of the gas tank. That wiring leads into the trunk to connect to the fuel pump speed control module which will be on the driver side for 1997. You're just looking to replace that wiring with heavier gauge - at least 14 gauge. The speed control module provides a discrete power and ground to the pump btw. Then you can just upgrade the power feed and ground wires to that speed control module that comes from the fuel pump relay in the back seat fuse box. That power feed wire isn't too bad but the ground kinda sucks - shared with a bunch of other stuff in the wiring looms as per usual. So I cut that ground wire somewhere and ran it to the battery. A good chassis ground is fine but the battery is right in that area anyway so that's what I did.

It's also a very good idea to change out the plastic bulkhead connector at the top of the fuel pump assembly with a new one that has the wider 280 series terminals for the fuel pump at least on the outside. I think the underside (inside of the tank) are the same either way. You often see these connections provided with new aftermarket and sometimes oem fuel pumps with a pigtail you're supposed to connect up.

Just for the sake of pointing it out for others, as I said, the 98-99 riv's are a little different. The wiring passthru that goes underneath the rear seat on the driver side is eliminated so the wiring going from the speed control module located on the passenger side of the trunk area just goes right through the quarter panel inner shell in the same area to get outside and route to the gas tank. Therefore there's no outside electrical connector where the wiring dramatically reduces in gauge size.

This is all just off memory so I'm sorry if you find something wrong but that should be the jest of it. I'll edit if I find mistakes.

Don't worry that's definitely helpful. I think I'll try to just rewire that section then street I do some voltage tests with the new pump. I ordered an E85 model AEM 320lph model. I think that should be sufficient to keep up with my setup, but I suppose we will see
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