Replacing Heater / Radiator Hoses

Eldo wrote:

I agree with Albert, and I would only add that a 'real' gasket-scraper comes with blades that are hard & straight... Unlike anything that comes with a razor-blade, this thing stays firm like a very wide screwdriver and helps prevent you from gouging the aluminum surface. Even with the firm gasket-scraper, you have to "modify" your angle and effort to be sure that you're not digging into the soft aluminum surface of the manifold/thermostat opening. When done properly, the carryover gasket is superfluous, and the chamferred rubber seal fits around the thermostat and drops into the notch in the manifold, 'smushing' down between the 2 surfaces when the stat-housing is tightened down...

Thanks, Mark, and I edited my note to clear that up (razor vs scraper).

The edge on mine is flat, like a screwdriver.

Rickw wrote:

Ken,
That short section of radiator hose and adapter or sleeve that is on the lower hose at the radiator can be eliminated.
Does not need to go back on. The new hose just goes from the water pump to the radiator and you eliminate that short piece.
It's just another potential area for a leak that can be removed.
It is speculated that it was installed by the factory to the radiator to assist in assembly. The short piece was attached to the radiator then the radiator with that piece was installed into car, then the radiator hose got attached to it.
I don't know about how your clamp was positioned to hold that piece to the radiator, but mine was clearly attached with the radiator out of the car as they could never have attached it in the position it was in after.
Even with the cable pliers it was real mother to get off. But the pliers saved the day again.

About that little extra section of hose -

I got the main hose off, no problem, and the coupler, but that last clamp holding the short hose section on is incredibly difficult to remove. I've got the special cable pliers, but that clamp is turned to the passenger side. If it were turned to the driver's side, I coud get it. But turned as it is - I spent a couple hours trying to find a way to get the plier head onto the clamp, and I could never quite do it.

I'm taking suggestions. Maybe it's easier to take the radiator out. Jeez.

Rickw wrote:

Having that in there is a sign that all was original, because i would venture to guess that no shop mechanic would bother putting it back on as it isn't necessary and just adds additional unnecessary labor. And it is not listed in any parts catalog, GM or aftermarket. Technically it doesn't exist.

I'd be shocked if a mechanic bothered to remove the short piece, as hard as it is. I expect that if I'd paid to have this job done, it would have been left in place.

Jack,

Mine was as you say, the ears of the clamp facing the @#% frame rail. Plus the frickin' tranny lines and low-coolant sensor squeezed in there. However, there was enough room to slide the head of the remote, cable-operated clamp pliers in there...

How about just pulling the radiator 'cover' so you can nudge it toward the driver's side and get the head of the pliers in there?

Oh, I've gotten the plier head in there, I've even managed to get it on one of the clamp tabs. Getting the head on both clamp tabs though, DAMN!

Maybe I can tie fishing line onto the end and pull the bottom part of the head over . . .

I'm looking at the instructions for removing the radiator - will at least try removing the cover and shifting the rad over.

Is there anything special I need to do to seat/sea the new hoses when I put them on? It's just "slide on, clamp down," right?

Nope, just use some fresh coolant as 'lube' to slide them on, and put the clamps back on in a better position...

Weeeell I broke my clamp pliers. Pulled the little stopper off the wire, at the handle. I think it can be fixed. It looks like there's a set screw on the stopper, and it can be put back on.

The head has gotten stuck next to the clamp. Maybe I can get it off tomorrow.

What's going on here? I thought I had the head on both the clamp ears, but when I squeezed down on the pliers the clamp didn't budge. The pliers broke instead.

I'm leaning towards pulling the radiator, unless there are any better ideas. I got the cover off today, and tried scooting it to the side. It didn't go over much. Pulling the radiator doesn't look too bad. What's a line wrench?

A line wrench is a flare wrench:

Jack the R wrote:

Weeeell I broke my clamp pliers. Pulled the little stopper off the wire, at the handle. I think it can be fixed. It looks like there's a set screw on the stopper, and it can be put back on.

What's going on here? I thought I had the head on both the clamp ears, but when I squeezed down on the pliers the clamp didn't budge. The pliers broke instead.

I'm leaning towards pulling the radiator, unless there are any better ideas. I got the cover off today, and tried scooting it to the side. It didn't go over much. Pulling the radiator doesn't look too bad. What's a line wrench?

As Aaron said, a "line wrench" is basically an open-end wrench that goes a little farther around the nut than a regular open-end wrench, to better grab the compression fittings from the cooler (or a carburetor fuel-fitting, or a brake-bleeder, etc....)

As for your original complaint, perhaps you grabbed 2 'spurs' on the same side of the clamp, and therefore were fighting an impossible situation... I can only say that as miserable as that clamp is, I didn't have any problem once I got the 'head' in the right position.

Sh*t Jack, if I were you I would be removing the rad at this point too. When I replaced my hoses the short piece had a worm clamp on it and I was able to use a couple of long extensions and a wobbler on the end the get it off. I can't remember right now, but the only problem I see by keeping the hose attached to the rad is that the tranny lines are right above, and might not let you pull the rad up.

If BMD had a worm-drive clamp on the WFC (Worst F@#%& Clamp) in the world, then it had to have been replaced at some prior point in the life of the car...

It was, soon after I bought the car I had a rad leak and had it replaced by the dealer who obviously discarded the OE clamp during re-installation.

While looking for other info I came across this from Gates on replacing small diameter hoses that have special fittings. Basically they show how to cut open and separate the ferrule so you just replace the rubber part of a specialty hose. Some of you already know this, some do not.

Not 100% sure if this is appropriate for power steering or transmission hoses because of the pressures involved but you might want to read it for what it was intended. I think it's worth the 3-5 minutes it will take to read if you're maintaining your own car if you did not already know how to do it.

http://gates.com/brochure.cfm?brochure=1025&location_id=541

Albertj



Replacement Tips For Small Molded Coolant Hoses

Today's cars are more fuel efficient than ever. To achieve this efficiency, the vehicle must be lighter and more aerodynamic. The engine compartment must be smaller and make better use of its components, making it necessary to rely heavily on molded coolant hose and less on straight coolant hose. The following report by Gates Corporation discusses some new innovations affecting coolant hose replacement.


Specialty Hoses

Today's coolant hoses carry coolant to a variety of under hood equipment and not just to the radiator, thermostat, water pump and heater. In addition to the traditional upper, lower, bypass and heater hoses, vehicles also are equipped with small (inside diameter) molded coolant hoses that carry coolant to the carburetor housing, fuel injection throttle body, turbocharger, oil cooler, and other components. The coolant can act as a cooling or heat source, depending on the equipment and time of year. For example, the carburetor and throttle body use the coolant to heat the fuel in the winter to keep it from icing and cool it in the summer to prevent vapor-lock.

Changes in coolant hoses include branched hoses, hoses with quick connects and ferrule assemblies. Branched hoses, or "intersect" hoses as they are sometimes called, use a tee with a secondary hose for routing the coolant to a separate part of the cooling system. Usually the hoses are attached to the tee by rubber encapsulation or a metallic ferrule.

Quick-connect hoses are now used frequently in domestic vehicles and occasionally on imports. They are found more often in vans than other vehicles because of their equipment options. Quick connects use male and female counterparts which are ferruled to the hose. When the two pieces are pushed or snapped together, the fitting seals the hose, in effect, replacing a clamp (Figure 1).

Figure 1



Ferrule assemblies typically have a pipe or valve attached to a hose(s) with a ferrule. The main purpose for most of these specialty hoses is ease of assembly at the factory. It takes far less time to install a one-piece assembly than to install two hoses, two clamps and a pipe.

Small I.D. Hose

Hoses with inside diameters of 3/8-in. and below are becoming more prevalent. Gates has a line of approximately 400 molded hoses under 1-in. inside diameter, 48 of which are between 3/8-in. and 1/4-in.. The line also includes straight hose in 3/8-in., 5/16-in. and 1/4-in. sizes. Hoses with I.D.s this small are very pliable and have a small bend radius due to the wall thickness of the hose. This means the hose, whether molded or straight, can be bent quite a bit with no collapse.

For example, the original hose connecting the manifold to the throttle body may have 5/16-in. inside diameter and is 8-in. in length with a 110¡ bend in it. The replacement hose has the same inside diameter, but is 9-1/2-in. long with a 90¡ bend. It should be possible to cut the required length off the replacement and install the hose with no collapse. This also is true when the hose is bent the opposite direction, from a 90¡ bend to a 70¡ bend. (Note: Don't be alarmed if the replacement hose is not identical to the original hose. Some are slightly different. Gates engineers trial fit hoses on vehicles before recommending them. Try it on! If it doesn't fit one way, reverse it and try it the opposite direction.)

Replacing Specialty Hoses

When replacing specialty hoses -- hoses with quick connects and ferrules -- it will be necessary to save the pipe portion of these connections. If possible, for easier access, these assemblies should be removed. After removal of assembly, clamp it in a vise or to a stationary object, such as a table. Do not over clamp, which could distort the assembly. (If the assemblies cannot be removed, use extreme caution not to damage hose nipples during the following procedures.)

Using a cutting-type tool such as a hacksaw or small rotary hand grinder with a cutting blade (see Figure 2), carefully cut a slit lengthwise in the ferrule. Do not cut too deep and score the nipple. Always wear eye protection when using power tools.

Figure 2



After the ferrule is split, spread it open and remove it from the assembly (see Figure 3). Remove the existing hose form the nipple.

Figure 3



If the hose is stuck, carefully slit the hose lengthwise and peel it off the nipple. Again, avoid cutting too deep and scoring the nipple. Check the nipple for damage and, if required, clean it with a wire brush.

Compare the new hose with the old hose and make any necessary trimming. Slide new clamps over the replacement hose and install the hose over the spouts (see Figure 4). Install new hose over nipple and secure with new clamps. To simplify installation of hose, lubricate the inside with coolant before sliding it on the nipple.


Figure 4




Quick-Connect Hose

If the assembly has a quick-connect attachment, remove it by pressing the "ears" of the fitting together. There is a tool available to expedite this, but with a little patience it can be achieved without it. When the fitting is loose from its mooring, slowly slide the female part from the male, making sure not to lose any of the nylon or rubber O-rings. If O-rings remain on the male spout, remove them and insert them back into the female in the same order they came out.

There are two ways to replace the hose with quick-connect fittings:

Remove the ferrule that holds the fitting to the hose as instructed above. Compare the new hose with the old hose and make any required trimming. Install the new hose over the nipple of the female fitting where the ferrule was removed. Clamp the new hose to the female fitting and reinstall over the male spout (see Figure 5). All O-rings must be present and in the same order for the fitting to seal.

Figure 5



Throw out the female part of the fitting and install the new hose over the male spout (see Figure 6). The spout usually is slightly larger than the inside diameter of the new hose. Lubricate the hose with coolant before installing. Slide the hose past the raised bead of the spout and clamp the hose behind the bead.


Figure 6




Why is it necessary to do all this extra work? First, certain OEM hose replacements will need the same replacement procedure and second, the cost of replacement is significantly lower than replacing the full assembly -- as much as 80 percent lower.

Small molded coolant hose play an important part in the cooling system, however, certain aspects of hose replacement have changed. Although coolant hoses appear to last longer today than before, there is no way to tell if a hose has internal damage until it fails.

For this reason, Gates continues to suggest hose be replaced every four years. Fleet vehicles, vehicles in severe weather states, or vehicles with extraordinary circumstances (i.e., overheating, oil leaks, major engine work, etc.) should have their hoses replaced more frequently.

Also, it's a good idea to carry an extra set of replacement hoses for emergencies. It could save trouble and unnecessary expense if a hose fails on the road.

Nice info

Good info! Thanks!

Is there a way to fix this, short of buying a new cable?

I have tried rewinding it, but it doesn't appear to be possible to get it tight enough to thread back through the holes it has to go through.

edit ---

Clamp plier fixed! I wound the cable end up as tight as I could, soldered it, then ground it down to fit through the handle and stopper.

Next stop, radiator fan removal . . .

Question about installing hoses - what do you do with the clamp? I tried sliding it down the hose, putting the hose on the nipple, and then moving the clamp up the hose. I couldn't get the clamp to go over the bump in the hose, where the hose goes over the nipple. I was pretty fed up at that point though, and called it a day without putting much effort into it.

I got that crazy clamp off, no thanks to the cable pliers, which failed again! I saw the clamp squeezing at the same time the stopper on the cable slipped down the line, and came off with considerable force. I still haven't found it.

I did find another piece which looks to have been crimped on behind the stopper, before the first time it failed. If I ever find the stopper again, I'll back it up with a couple of wheel collars from my RC plane hobby. Maybe I don't even need to find the stopper.

Anyway, that horrible clamp is relatively EASY to get at, with regular hose clamp pliers (maybe even regular pliers), if you first remove the radiator fans, and an electrical cable that blocks access to the clamp. It's still tough. There's a bunch of pipes and stuff that get in the way, but I got it the first try with regular clamp pliers, after who knows how many failures with the cable pliers.

Jack the R wrote:

Question about installing hoses - what do you do with the clamp? I tried sliding it down the hose, putting the hose on the nipple, and then moving the clamp up the hose. I couldn't get the clamp to go over the bump in the hose, where the hose goes over the nipple. I was pretty fed up at that point though, and called it a day without putting much effort into it.

I got that crazy clamp off, no thanks to the cable pliers, which failed again! I saw the clamp squeezing at the same time the stopper on the cable slipped down the line, and came off with considerable force. I still haven't found it.

I did find another piece which looks to have been crimped on behind the stopper, before the first time it failed. If I ever find the stopper again, I'll back it up with a couple of wheel collars from my RC plane hobby. Maybe I don't even need to find the stopper.

Anyway, that horrible clamp is relatively EASY to get at, with regular hose clamp pliers (maybe even regular pliers), if you first remove the radiator fans, and an electrical cable that blocks access to the clamp. It's still tough. There's a bunch of pipes and stuff that get in the way, but I got it the first try with regular clamp pliers, after who knows how many failures with the cable pliers.

Hmmm...

I guess question 1 is does the hose really fit? And question 2 is why is that nipple fitted to the lower radiator -- it might not be there only for factory installation.

This past weekend I replaced my radiator and cooling hoses. I was going to do the heater hoses as well but they were stuck pretty tight to the core nipples so I left them for another day (or to pay a mech to do it). by "Do they really fit" I mean that for instance the Gates hoses for our cars can be made to fit but do not really fit. Their bends do not really match the bends of the OE hoses, which gives rise to question 1. For instance the lower Gates hose is too long, sort of. It is long enough that you don't have to reinstall the short steel nipple on the lower rad tank BUT if you don't reinstall that short steel nipple I think you get 2 problems in return, which lets us broach question 2. One is that if you have to replace that long lower hose in service it will be nigh impossible to get it off because the radiator level sensor will be in the way. You see, with that nipple in you can remove the hose without hassling around that sensor. The other is it will probably be too tight in there to work the clamp - at least, the original spring clamps - around the lower bend just before the radiator nipple. I mean, technically you *can* do that if you simultaneously squeeze the hose and move the clamp. But doing that in practice is not really possible because once the rad is in place you can not really squeeze hose and move clamp at the same time, no room to get two arms into the area to work the problem. You probably could do it with the rad out of the car but good luck lining the hose up so it will in fact connect to the water pump and be out of the way of the accessory and blower belts. The Gates hose does not clear the belts with as much margin as the OE hose did.

So on the lower hose I trimmed the Gates hose - I set it side by side with the OE hose, cut a straight section to use to attach the nipple, cut about an inch off for measure, and used the rest to connect the WP to the free side of the nipple. I reinstalled the nipple before I put the radiator in place.

As for your cable clamp - I took a look at the cable clamp from AutoZone - the OEM brand one - and decided I did not want it. For about the same money I bought a Sears Craftsman cable clamp tool, which came with an "emergency" repair fitting for the cable stopper (sweet!)

As for repairing your cable clamp pliers, not to worry. All you need to do is find someone with a crimper that will swage a ferrule onto the cable end such as shown on this LINK. A good swager/crimper is about $50 but truth is you should be able to creatively use a small (say 6#) sledge or other hammer of some sort to whack it on good - but a proper swager is best. A BICYCLE CABLE TOOL might work, but don't get a cheapie one and make sure the joint has no slop so you get good cuts and crimps.

Albertj

Is there any reason not to replace these crazy clamps with the old style worm gear type clamps?

Jack the R wrote:

Is there any reason not to replace these crazy clamps with the old style worm gear type clamps?

Actually, yes but it's not critical.

When new the worm gear clamps can require re-tightening after the first warmup/cooldown drive cycle. Also there are some places the worm gear type clamps are actually harder to use, such as the heater core connections at the firewall.

What's more, the crazy clamps do not require retightening and by their design seat correctly on the pipe as long as you place them properly on the hose. And they can be somewhat more difficult to tamper with, since a pocket screwdriver won't do.

Damn you, Albertj.

O.K., I got the bottom clamp on. The problem with the vice grips is, if they're open enough to get on the clamp, they can't close down enough to open the clamp far enough to get over the nipple.

After a while I was able to get ahold of it with the regular clamp pliers.

Then I "fixed" my cable clamp pliers, and tried to do the top clamp. But my fix came undone instantly.

So I only got one clamp on today

What do the bolts on the thermostat housing need to be torqued down to?

Jack the R wrote:

What do the bolts on the thermostat housing need to be torqued down to?

Manual says 15 lb-ft.

Jack the R wrote:

Damn you, Albertj.

O.K., I got the bottom clamp on. The problem with the vice grips is, if they're open enough to get on the clamp, they can't close down enough to open the clamp far enough to get over the nipple.

After a while I was able to get ahold of it with the regular clamp pliers.

Then I "fixed" my cable clamp pliers, and tried to do the top clamp. But my fix came undone instantly.

So I only got one clamp on today

This is probably why the GM manual does not show cable clamp pliers for this task.

Try fixing the cable clamp guys again. Get an aircraft cable end maybe for the clam end of the cable? I dunno if it will fit but if it fits it will stay. See http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/cablendbnut.php.

Can you look up the torque settings for the drain bung, and the nuts and bolts that hold on the radiator cap?

I've got the radiator hoses done. I looked at the heater hoses today, and it looks like, if you undo both on the engine block side, and tie them out of the way, you can get the firewall side with regular pliers? If they're bonded on with gunk like the other hoses were, it could still be hard to remove them.