The Carver Sunfire subs (they've been out for about 8 years) use ultra long excursion drivers (from the car audio industry) so they can make the cabinet so small. This also explains the high power ratings required to drive those subs in the small cabinet. These drivers use heavy cones and huge motors to overcome the tiny air space they perform in. The result is about the same as a larger (more efficient) driver & cabinet like you'd see 15-20 years ago.
Big bass in a small space is a valuable asset for both automotive and home audio markets, and people are willing to pay big bucks for it. Don't be fooled into thinking a fat surround automatically means a sub driver will make lots of bass. There are a lot of crappy drivers out there with beefy suspensions. A sub must also have the motor to drive the cone to the mechanical limits of the suspension - without melting or catching on fire.
I use a single Kicker 8" L7 (square sub) in a sealed box with 200Wrms. When it came out, the L7 was truly a monster 8" with 14mm of one-way throw. In my previous vehicles, I've run a single 10", two 10"s, three 8"s, and four 12"s. My next sub will likely be a JL 8W7, which is probably the best 8" sub in the universe, and imo one of the best subs, period.
with 14mm of one-way throw it doesn't seem like it would be much for SQ and would be used for more a mix between SQ and SPL. The longer the throw the more room for the speaker/sound to be interfered with.
AA Administrator
Name : Aaron Age : 47 Location : C-bus, Ohio Joined : 2007-01-13Post Count : 18452 Merit : 252
Fundamentally speaking, you're right, a larger cone moving less distance is the better low distortion solution. Again, if you have hundreds of cubic space to play with, get a wall of 18" cones for the lowest possible distortion. This is the obvious solution in an ideal world...
But in practice, a small sub is more desirable for reasons mentioned earlier, and since the mid '90s subwoofer manufacturers have been using DUMAX machines to measure and design drivers with increasing linear xMax, and amplifiers have been arriving with the massive power to push these drivers with accuracy. Credit the car audio industry for making this leap possible.
You still have a lot of folks sticking with the old theory that xMax is always a bad thing, because they're terrified of cone movement and its "Doppler distortion" effect on sound quality. It's interesting, I read posts by these guys, generally arriving at a figure of ~8 mm as a limit for good SQ, but they never can say exactly why that's the magical cut-off point. Imo, that idea went out the window after designers started using the DUMAX machine to truly analyze a speaker's BL curve vs. its excursion. And it surprises me how these folks refuse to accept that by definition, a modern subwoofer does not share midrange duty as a woofer did 40 years ago, and therefore will not be reproducing high and low frequencies at the same time, so the idea of Doppler distortion is pretty moot.
Then there's the whole argument that the further a driver's voice coil moves out from the magnetic gap, the less control the motor has on the cone, and so the more distortion you will have. Once again, this used to be a problem years ago, before the DUMAX machine allowed designers to "see" how subwoofers actually behave, and to improve their performance.
The underlying point is, whatever the size of your sub, it is desirable to have a longer linear xMax, as long as you have the power to drive it. The downside of long-throw drivers is lowered efficiency, not increased distortion.
Even if we know an 8" cone needs to move a bit further to achieve higher SPL, shouldn't someone try and design a motor that will exhibit enough control so that distortion becomes minimal? This is what companies like Sunfire and JL Audio have done, and they've had some incredible results. One of the things they've proven is that for a given driver size, the longer a driver's linear xMax spec, the lower its distortion will generally be. By definition, the linear xMax spec = how far the motor can move without exhibiting non-linear behavior (distortion). There are other factors to consider, but most subs with larger xMax specs are desirable for better SQ and lower distortion operation.
Here's a good read by some guys who really know their stuff. They do a great job of defending the long-throw subwoofer: http://techtalk.parts-express.com/showthread.php?t=208461
They mention the Tang Band subs one page 1, a very inexpensive choice. I might just get one or two of these to experiment with: http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=264-833
On the 4th page into the thread, they bring up the Infinity Perfect 10", another outstanding SQ sub driver - note it has 16.75 mm of xMax. These are selling for as low as $120, so maybe something to consider.
'70 Ninety-Eight Holiday Coupe 455cid • 116k miles ^^^ SOLD ^^^
krazyfish Enthusiast
Name : Jerred Age : 34 Location : Kentucky Joined : 2009-02-20Post Count : 136 Merit : 4
Subject: Need som help on amps. Sat Aug 01, 2009 11:21 am
I am currently in the process of selling my old cavalier which means money to do things to the riv.
This is the headunit i am getting: Link
I have already replaced door speakers and am buying a sub from one of my buddys, (kicker solobaric, not sure what model exactly)
The only thing i dont know what i am getting is an amp. i want a 1000 watt. but i know nothing about what good brand names there are or anything. im buying my HU off ebay, im fine with ebay but im wnating to keep this amp in the 100ish dollar range. Does anyone have any suggestions that wont be too far out of my price range, ebay buy it now auctions would be awesome. or even just some brands to look for or avoid would be useful.
Rickw Guru
Name : Rick Location : Lancaster, MA Joined : 2008-09-13Post Count : 6282 Merit : 119
Subject: Re: Subwoofers, Speakers & Amps Sat Aug 01, 2009 12:34 pm
I don't see any RCA outputs on that HU for Amps.???
krazyfish Enthusiast
Name : Jerred Age : 34 Location : Kentucky Joined : 2009-02-20Post Count : 136 Merit : 4
Subject: Re: Subwoofers, Speakers & Amps Sat Aug 01, 2009 8:41 pm
You bout gave me a heart attack when you said that because ive alreaddy paid for it. but they are there. Sony doesnt really mention them on the specifications that i can see but they are listed on the features. kind of stupid... but they are there.
duster_do_little Enthusiast
Name : Dustin Age : 38 Location : Midland, MI Joined : 2008-11-15Post Count : 171 Merit : 4
Subject: Re: Subwoofers, Speakers & Amps Sat Aug 01, 2009 9:10 pm
ew, I wish I would have seen your post ahead of time. Buying a sony head unit is a big mistake. Also, there are much better deals out there than ebay. One website is www.woofersetc.com
I would have went with something like this this or this
Or if you really wanted a double din, I would have bought this
The Alpine 9886 is an amazing head unit, and eclipses are also very nice. Pioneer isn't top of the line, but they are much better than Sony, and as far as double dins are concerned, that's a pretty nice one.
For amps, you said you wanted 1000 watts. Is that 1000 watts max or rms? Don't look at the max wattage of anything, it's pointless. Look at the RMS wattage. You won't find a 1000w rms amp for $100, but if what you're looking for is 1000watts max, it's probably like 300 watts rms. Cadence makes probably the best low budget amps that you can get.
Bridged to 4 ohms this amp will do 300 watts rms. It's an A/B amp, so it's not as efficient as a D class amp, but with that low of wattage your electrical system should be fine. If you need more, you can get this amp and you'll have 600 watts rms available bridged to 4 ohms (so 2x 2ohm subs, or 1x 4ohm sub). Figure out the specs on your sub, because the amp will solely depend on the sub you are getting. You need to know if it's a dual 4 ohm, or a dual 2 ohm. Preferably you'd want a dual 2 ohm, because you can wire it to 4 ohms which is the most amp friendly. By the looks of it depending on the size you'll need between 300 watts rms and 600 watts rms. (8"=300, 10"=450, 12"=600), so the amps I listed would be great. The 300 watt rms would work with either of the subs, but wouldn't be powering the 10 and 12 to their full potential. The 600 watt rms amp would work for all, but you would need to be careful with the gain on the 8" or 10". If you have any more questions feel free to ask. I'm starting to make this stuff a big hobby for me.
krazyfish Enthusiast
Name : Jerred Age : 34 Location : Kentucky Joined : 2009-02-20Post Count : 136 Merit : 4
Subject: Re: Subwoofers, Speakers & Amps Sun Aug 02, 2009 12:06 am
In all honesty sony is not my first choice. my honest reason for this headunit is aesthetics. The big circle will match the dash very well and the lights can be switched to green (although it appears to be more of a Christmas green than the sea foam that is on the car). My heart wasnt set on sony, just this headunit.
If i would have went with a different manufacturer it would have almost positivley been pioneer or alpine. Sony is good but are overly expensiv compared to the rest of the market.
From what i know of the sub i am getting it is 1200w max. i dont know anything else about it i should be able to find it out exactly tomorrow. As far as amps and subs go i really dont know apples from oranges. i can wire a system up but as far as piecing together something that will work im lost. Ill find out the exact model and specs of the sub im getting.
AA Administrator
Name : Aaron Age : 47 Location : C-bus, Ohio Joined : 2007-01-13Post Count : 18452 Merit : 252
Subject: Re: Subwoofers, Speakers & Amps Sun Aug 02, 2009 12:24 am
1200W max = 600W RMS. A class D mono amp putting out 300-600W RMS is what you are looking for. How you wire it to the sub depends on how many coils the sub has, and the impedance (ohms) of each coil.
'70 Ninety-Eight Holiday Coupe 455cid • 116k miles ^^^ SOLD ^^^
duster_do_little Enthusiast
Name : Dustin Age : 38 Location : Midland, MI Joined : 2008-11-15Post Count : 171 Merit : 4
Subject: Re: Subwoofers, Speakers & Amps Sun Aug 02, 2009 11:56 am
Yes, a Class D amp putting out 300-600 watts rms would be ideal, but you'll be hard pressed to find a class d putting out that much for around $100. With 600 watts rms if your electrical system is in check, you shouldn't need to upgrade your alternator or anything, so a class AB amp will work. The only differences between class ab and class d is that ab isn't as efficient but has better clarity (great for front stage but takes more juice to power). A class d amp is much more efficient but doesn't have as much clarity (not good for front stage, but great for high output that doesn't require amazing SQ). Typically a Class AB amp is only good for 2ohm-8 ohm loads, and typically only 4 ohms when bridged, where as depending on the money you wanna spend, a Class D amp could be good for .25 ohms.
You need to really pay attention to the ohm load of the sub, because you can fy an amp not running the right load, plus the wattage will differ greatly depending on the ohms you're running. By the sounds of it you will be getting either th 10" or 12" Kicker. Typically the rms wattage is roughly 1/3 to 1/2 the max wattage. The 600 watt cadence amp that I posted will work great as long as the sub is dual 2 ohm so that you can wire it to have a 4 ohm load.
All you need to find out about the sub is the impedance, and the rms wattage.
If it's dual 4 ohm, you could wire it to a 2 ohm load but you would need an amp capable of near 600 watts rms at 2 ohms, like this one
duster_do_little Enthusiast
Name : Dustin Age : 38 Location : Midland, MI Joined : 2008-11-15Post Count : 171 Merit : 4
you need to find out which impedance the one you're getting is. They make dual 2 ohm and dual 4 ohm. If it's a dual 4 ohm, I say sure get the amp you suggested because you can wire it to a 2 ohm load. If it's dual 2 ohm, I suggest getting the cadence amp. I think the cadence amp is a much better amp for the money, but if it's a dual 4 ohm sub, it won' t work very well with the amp. You'd need to run it at 2-ohms on one channel and you wouldn't be using the full potential of the sub or the amp. Woofersetc has some very quick shipping. My friend lives in an apt (normally longer shipping), and it took like 4 days to get everything.
So, in short. If it's a dual 2 ohm sub, get the 600 watt rms cadence I listed and wire the 2 voice coils in series to get a 4-ohm load. If it's dual 4-ohm, that alpine amp will work great. Just wire the voice coils on the sub parallel to get a 2ohm load.
duster_do_little Enthusiast
Name : Dustin Age : 38 Location : Midland, MI Joined : 2008-11-15Post Count : 171 Merit : 4
the sub i am buying but im only paying 20$, its in good shape he could easily get more out of it, he just wants to get rid of it and we are childhood friends so he is giving me a good deal. its an older box of his that he split in half with one half being in his truck and the other is just taking up space in his garage. so i am getting a hell of a deal on that sub.
I just didnt know where to go as far as amp. still dont know for sure if it is 2 or 4 ohm. i really need to take a look at that amp, may need to take it out of the box, you think the specs would be printed on the magnet?
duster_do_little Enthusiast
Name : Dustin Age : 38 Location : Midland, MI Joined : 2008-11-15Post Count : 171 Merit : 4
Okay, sweet. Make sure you adjust your gains right when you install everything. Keep your loudness and what not off on your head unit, and keep the bass boost off on the amp. All they do is add distortion. If you need a good way to set the gain just ask. It's not too hard, you just need to know what you're listening for.
sqrivi Fanatic
Name : scott Location : madison, al Joined : 2008-03-15Post Count : 375 Merit : 52
nice find. For $205 it's probably a low wattage one though. JL products tend to be pretty expensive, and they hold their value too. Doesn't hurt to ask though. I'd still take the Cadence over the JL though. If you could get a sundown for the same price that would work with the sub, I'd go that route, but they're a bit more than cadence.
AA Administrator
Name : Aaron Age : 47 Location : C-bus, Ohio Joined : 2007-01-13Post Count : 18452 Merit : 252
It depends on final load to the amp. Amps don't "push" subs, the subs "pull" power from the amp, based on their load.
If the sub's final load to the amp is 4 ohms, it will pull 300 W. If the sub's final load is 2 ohms, it will pull 500 W. You don't get to select the power output - it's the load (ohms) that determines it.
Whatever sub(s) you are looking at, these configurations will pull 500 W from the alpine:
- a single coil 2 ohm sub - a dual coil sub (4 ohms/coil) wired parallel - two single coil 4 ohm subs wired in parallel
Using the same alpine amp, these configurations will pull 300 W:
- a single coil 4 ohm sub - a dual coil sub (8 ohms/coil) wired parallel - a dual coil sub (2 ohms/coil) wired series - two single coil 8 ohm subs wired in parallel - two single 2 ohm subs wired in series
To answer your question, tell us how many coils your "4 ohm sub" has, and what the impedance (ohms) is for each coil.
If you can afford another $30 I would take this over the Alpine. http://www.dealercostcaraudio.com/jlaudioe1800de1800rb.aspx Like AA said, it is important to know if the sub is a dual voice coil sub.
duster_do_little Enthusiast
Name : Dustin Age : 38 Location : Midland, MI Joined : 2008-11-15Post Count : 171 Merit : 4
Is it dual 4 ohm or dual 2 ohm. If it's dual 4 ohm you will need to wire the sub parallel. That means the + from each voice coil to the + on the amp and the - from each voice coil to the minus on the amp. That will give you a 2 ohm load.
You figure out impedance loads with 2 different equations...when in series you are wiring + of one voice coil to - of the other, and then the - from the first voice coil to the - on the amp, and the + from the second voice coil to the + on the amp. To figure out your load when in series, you add the impedance of each voice coil together, so a dual 4 ohm sub would be 8 ohms when wired in series (4+4).
If they are wired parallel you're wiring both + to the + on the amp, and both - to the - on the amp. This will lower the impedance. You figure this out by multiplying the impedances together and dividing by the two impedances added together, so with a dual 4 ohm voice coil you would have (4x4)/(4+4) or (16)/(8) which equals 2.
If it's a dual 2 ohm voice coil you don't need to waste your money on the $200 amps, because that cadence will run it perfectly. The problem is that bridged the cadence can't handle loads of 2 ohms, so you would need the amp that is safe at 2 ohms.
You said that it's a the 4 ohm, so you mean it's model number 08-S-12L-54. If so, you need either the JL amp that was just listed by sqrivi, or the Alpine amp you listed earlier. The JL is a much better amp, but it's a bit more and you'll need to be safe with y our gains because it puts out 800watts rms and your sub is capable of handling 600
duster_do_little Enthusiast
Name : Dustin Age : 38 Location : Midland, MI Joined : 2008-11-15Post Count : 171 Merit : 4