Subwoofers, Speakers & Amps

The biggest pitfalls in car audio is simply the basics. If you provide proper power (electrical system), properly selected units (amps, speakers, subs) and do the install properly (correct box) the end results are good.

From there its fine tuning time. Ive always tuned by ear. This last setup I intended to buy an RTA setup but unemployment forced me to sell off my dream system. I had 5 mid 90's Sound Stream Ref amps, good componet setup, proper eqing, crossover, good head unit... Nice 15" SoundSteam SPL170 sub... But I sold the dream to feed the family.

It's been about that long since I built my last big system, these days there are so many Chinese companies producing cheap car audio products, I tend to stay far away from anything other than the top tier manufacturers. Not to say all of them are without their faults, such as I wouldn't take a Kenwood head unit if you paid me.

Eventually I want to put 4 12" Solo's in the trunk with Rockford amps and most likely an Alpine head unit with nav.

Honestly man its all made in Asia now.

If it was made in America people wouldnt buy due to price.

Thats how you can get true 1000 WRMS amps now for under $150. Competition quality 1000 WRMS amps for $200...

The time of US built equipment is over.

I'm not saying they are built in the US, but go to a swap meet and you will see the garbage I am talking about. 1,000 watt amps for $200= JUNK.

There is a reason my 10+ year old 300 watt Rockford amp destroys my buddies so called 1,000 watt pyramid junk amp. There is still a difference, I'm not sure what you're calling competition quality, but you won't touch a top shelf competition 500 watt amp for that price, and most of those so called 1,000 watt competition amps are marketing BS. Sure it puts out a 1,000 watts for a brief second, and more often than not, can't compare to a much higher quality amp of half the wattage.

There is a reason people pay $500 for a Rockford amp over a $200 junk swap meet 1,200 watt amp.... Do the cheap amps work? Sure, but your system won't sound nearly as clean and hit nearly as hard.

There is a difference, not knocking your products, as I haven't seen your site yet, but I've had more than enough experience with the cheap products versus quality components to know you truly do get what you pay for.

Ryan from Ohio wrote:

The time of US built equipment is over.

JL Audio

Abaddon wrote:

Ryan from Ohio wrote:

The time of US built equipment is over.

JL Audio

Zapco

American assembled chinese equipment?

haha

Its inevitable. Thats what JL is. Thats why the price is so high. Theres no escape from it.

Actually the Asian stuff has vastly improved since the mid - late 90's.

Zapco? Ha, who here has it and can afford it? That stuff is stupid expensive with no benefits over other amps.

I will put a $200 American Bass VFL 80.1 to any 1,000 WRMS amp from the mid to late 90's anyday- and I would pick the VFL. Its hardly flea market material and its a well known competition grade brand. Especially considering its Class D (rare in older amps) its more efficient...

174.1 dB is pretty loud. You dont see Pyramid doing that... lol

Ive been doing this since the mid 90's and Ive had my hands on McIntosh to Majestik. Rainbow to Rampage. RE Audio to JL Audio. And so forth.

I'm not knocking your products, but you're going to have a hell of a time convincing those who have been in the game for long that a $200 amp is going to rival a $700 amp, sorry, but the fact remains they MUST cut corners somewhere to get to that price point, and usually it's in the the actual audio handling components. As for them being used in competition that proves literally nothing, as Pyramid has been doing the same for years, as have many other shitty brands. But, I stand by my statement that any 1,000 watt amp for $200 is JUNK, just because it's loud doesn't mean it's quality. Go look at the winning competition vehicles and you will most certainly see they aren't running junk $200 1,000 watt amps. Sorry but that's the simple truth.

I will stick with known and trusted names and what has worked for me, and the people I know. Good luck with the site, hope it takes off.

eh, everything electronic is made in China....just differs on where it's assembled I guess

stupid cheap chinese slave labor

BrianEsser wrote:

I'm not knocking your products, but you're going to have a hell of a time convincing those who have been in the game for long that a $200 amp is going to rival a $700 amp, sorry, but the fact remains they MUST cut corners somewhere to get to that price point, and usually it's in the the actual audio handling components. As for them being used in competition that proves literally nothing, as Pyramid has been doing the same for years, as have many other shitty brands. But, I stand by my statement that any 1,000 watt amp for $200 is JUNK, just because it's loud doesn't mean it's quality. Go look at the winning competition vehicles and you will most certainly see they aren't running junk $200 1,000 watt amps. Sorry but that's the simple truth.

I will stick with known and trusted names and what has worked for me, and the people I know. Good luck with the site, hope it takes off.

Wow man thats about as ignorant as it comes. To sit there and blindly blast a product with absolutely no knowledge on it. Just goes to show who knows what I guess... Ive run McIntosh and Rainbow before but I dont consider myself an audio snob...

Ive been doing this since 1994. So I have been in the game for quite some time. I dont know how long is long enough for you...

I hear Richard Clark has $10,000 to give to you.

Were talking apples to apples here. Not mango's to tomato's.

1,000 WRMS amp isnt meant for cabin speakers, rather subwoofers. Providing the amplifier will put out the rated 1,000 wrms into a subwoofer you wont hear any difference between your $700 old class A/B 1,000 amp and a new class d. Its not a matter of convincing its a matter of fact. The fact remains nobody has taken Richard Clarks $10,000 yet. So as you can see, the money has been put where the mouth is and he still has it.

Likewise I will put an SQ475 up to any other comparable amp in the same manner. For those slow its a 4 channel class A/B amplifier from American Bass.

There isnt anyone on the competition scene running crap equipment like Pyramid, at least on a serious level. That argument is false and simply ludicrous. Furthermore the big guys are just that, big. They run big amps and big subs to get extreme numbers. So to blast a 1,000 WRMS as junk and try to justify it based on that comment is laughable at best.

Now the difference between old school US Built amps and new stuff made in China? All electronics prices have went down... Stuff produced in Asia also has a very low labor. Does it mean its inferior? No it doesnt. Actually if you care to look things are much cleaner now than ever which leads to improved designs overall. In the end the consumers drive the market. People wanted more for less and now they get it.

Abaddon wrote:

eh, everything electronic is made in China....just differs on where it's assembled I guess

stupid cheap chinese slave labor

Actually some stuff is made in Korea also.

China has a bad rap due to their past. The bottom line is they are way ahead of us now. Providing the company outsources to a quality factory in China you should have excellent products.

Given the labor costs I would suspect the $200 AB VFL80.1 amp would cost well over $800 if it was built domestically from domestic parts- if you could even get all the parts domestically. Which im sure you cant...

Wow, now who is defensive.

First off, no one mentioned OLD components in my last comment. I am talking new. A NEW Rockford amp will out perform any $200 amp you find of the same wattage.

No offense but you're sounding like the guys at Traders World down in Cincy who sell those cheap ass amps and subs trying to say theirs are just as good yet somehow cost a quarter of the price.

Point is, use what you want, but I'll stick with products and manufacturers who have been around and have credibility Not some Chinese knock-off that cost's a fraction of the price.

What next, you're going to tout the superiority of your cheapo wal mart JVC head units versus Alpine lol

Dude you came into my thread and stated any 1,000 WRMS amp for $200 is junk. Then you state I will have a hell of a time convincing people thats been in the game blah blah blah. Then you continue to knock products you have no clue on. So ya Im a bit defensive.

The fact of the matter is you obviously have no damned clue what you are talking about. You have made that blatantly obvious.

Just because you havent heard of it doesnt mean its junk. Nor does it mean its flea market equipment.

I suppose Fi Audio is junk? RE Audio? Creative Sound Solutions? Adire? Ascendant Audio? Based off the I havent heard it must be junk thought process.

Whats top tier to you? Sony?

I will tell you what, I see your in Ohio.

Bring your 1000 WRMS Rockford Fosgate amp and we will put them head to head.

We will see who wins then. Who produces rated power and how much its under rated. Who can drop to the lowest ohm before shutting down. Hell bring your old class A/B amp thats $700 and we will do it again. If you want to compare apples to apples Im game. American Bass is a quality product and I will put my name to it.

The offer is there, Im up Toledo way.

BrianEsser wrote:

Wow, now who is defensive.

First off, no one mentioned OLD components in my last comment. I am talking new. A NEW Rockford amp will out perform any $200 amp you find of the same wattage.

No offense but you're sounding like the guys at Traders World down in Cincy who sell those cheap ass amps and subs trying to say theirs are just as good yet somehow cost a quarter of the price.

Point is, use what you want, but I'll stick with products and manufacturers who have been around and have credibility Not some Chinese knock-off that cost's a fraction of the price.

What next, you're going to tout the superiority of your cheapo wal mart JVC head units versus Alpine lol

BrianEsser is not wrong I'm afraid to say. I have been running a variety of audio brands for way over 15 years. I can honestly say that U.S. manufactured high grade amplifiers vastly surpass the build quality of the Chinese manufactured equipment.

Now, that being said, this does not automatically mean that the cheaper amp will not produce 1000 watts. But the power is definately cleaner and the amp more efficient using tradional U.S. build quality levels. The U.S. amps cost alot more because most were handmade, and used top quality crossovers and power supply set ups. They will also greatly out live the Chinese amplifiers of today. I am not biased I have the new mass produced Soundstream line outta of China in my Riv, they are great, and were affordable, but they cannot compete with my Old school U.S. built Soundstream Reference, or my RF Power 500a2. Granted I am sure its a louder system but its also rated at 4x the watts of my 11 year Old RF system, gotta say its in no way 4x louder.

This is comparing 660 WRMS RF system to a 2880 WRMS Soundstream system.
Conclusion after owning both... U.S.A.>China

Imo, it has a lot more to do with the company & brand than the country of manufacture. Audio brands that design their amplifier circuits in-house, that cast and test their own speaker assemblies - these are the companies who are going to make the best stuff for the enthusiasts. The truly innovative products don't just sound better, they install better, and they stand up better over time.

On the other hand, there are some brands that merely source standard Chinese components off shelves, put them together in a new way, and stamp their names on the package. This has been going on for many years, and companies have gotten better at getting more for less. So yes, you can get a lot more bang for the buck now than you could in 1993. Yes, you can get more clean watts now than you could 20 or even 10 years ago.

But there is more than just distortion numbers and power output to consider when considering the price of audio gear. JL is one off those really innovative companies that is pushing the envelope with new technologies like their patented surround system on their W7 subs, and the consistent power delivery over varying impedance in their HD amps. This is stuff that matters, because it maximizes performance, eases installation, and saves interior space - important in the smaller vehicles we drive nowadays - this is the stuff that people care about in addition to SQ and power output. Is it sourced from China? Some of it is. But the ideas are generated here in the USA, and many components are from the US, and with proper QC in place, the product is top notch.

So is the new stuff better? I think so, especially the top-shelf stuff. Is it made in China? Partly, like almost everything else. Does that make it Chinese? Nope. Does it sound better than the vintage gear? Not really, but it's generally more capable and flexible, and it's more compact with the same or better levels of performance. And it runs cooler in most cases, and more consistent.

Is there still junk out there? Yep, but it's better than the old junk.

Look for features that give you flexibility, cleaner & more reliable installation, and a smaller footprint. If all you want is SQ and SPL, you can get it with the cheap stuff installed correctly, but you make sacrifices that won't win you points in competition, and it can make your car seem more obviously "equipped" with amps and subs everywhere. But nowadays if you use the good stuff, it's easier to make a top-notch system with hardly any evidence that it's there. Smaller yet more capable products with trick features will give the performance you want, without the old-school disadvantages - at a price only some are willing to pay.

You should Moonlight and write articles for an Audiophile magazine.
That right there is a candidate for an opinion/technical piece for the average joe.
Very well written and easy to understand by all, in my opinion.

I couldn't diagree more on the "smaller footprint" comment. The most popular speaker and sub sizes really haven't changed over the last 15 years. Typically most people run 10's, 12's, or 15's for woofer in a single or multiple sub form. The enclosures have changed, and they have released shallow mount technology but its no where near the same as a conventional SW in SQ or even power handling. Speakers have come a long way in all aspects of quality though.

I have never been 1 to run low budget audio equipment, but when you compare the footprints of a stereo, My RF system was far more compact and put out a very comparible sound. Both systems now currently run a single 12" SW. The ported Bandpass enclosure in my Alero is about 2 cu.ft. of air space, the regular ported enclosure in my Riviera for a single 12" SW is 4 cu.ft. each amp is over 20" long in my Riviera. I realize 1 is a bandpass and capable of different levels of bass than the standard ported. However the bandpass contains a 1000 watt 12" SW where as the other 4 cu.ft. ported runs a 4400 watt 12" SW. Furthermore, the RF system in the Alero the largest amp is only 10" long in my Alero. Rockfords largest Power series amp available at that time was the Power 800a2 which is 6" shorter than the mono block new tech amp I am running today.

New technology = more flexible... YES. Smaller footprint??? Not necessarily. I had that RF system originally in my 1985 Fiero 2m6 running 2 8" 800watt Punch HX2 woofers and hit 143.7 with it in the 1 to 2 sub class in competition, thats pretty amazing for 2 8's by anybodies standards, and it all fit easily into a small mid engined 2 seater. It was a squeeze to fit the new stuff into a 17 foot long Riviera.

Like I said in my previous post I own both U.S. built and Chinese built systems (that includes Soundstream amps U.S. built / Soundstream amps China built) , therefore I can actually speak from experience , not just what I read in a magazine article.

Quote :

New technology = more flexible... YES. Smaller footprint??? Not necessarily. I had that RF system originally in my 1985 Fiero 2m6 running 2 8" 800watt Punch HX2 woofers and hit 143.7 with it in the 1 to 2 sub class in competition, thats pretty amazing for 2 8's by anybodies standards, and it all fit easily into a small mid engined 2 seater. It was a squeeze to fit the new stuff into a 17 foot long Riviera.

My comment was referring to the switch to class D amps compared to A/B that used to be used for subs. The class Ds are about half the size and deliver more power than the A/B class. They don't run hot either, so need for large, heavy heat sinks.

As for subs, your two Punch 8" subs hitting 143.7 dB is an impressive feat, but now there are 8" subs than can exceed that in smaller boxes. For example, a pair of Kicker L7 8"s has hit 155 dB in a Kicker demo truck. And a single JL 8W7 in a 1 cu ft vented box made 131.3 dB in a review test - imagine if you had two. There are even some 6.5" subs out now that can compete with the 8"s and 10"s of the 80's-90's.

Keep in mind my 143.7 was 11 years ago and not in a audio companies demo vehicle. I never used any sound deading in that car either. Running 500 watts RMS @ 2 ohms, w/o many interior mods those number still impress most audiophiles.

As for you referring to D vs. A/B, so was I. Take a look a a RF 1500BD (mono block) amp and compare its dimensions to a Sounstream TRX1500 D (mono block) amp you'll notice quite a difference. The dimensions are easy to find on the web. Yes the Old ones run hotter but they are half the size of course they will run hotter. Less surface area 2 displace the heat = higher operating temps. Just my 2 cents anyways I am off to lunch.
Good day

The Kicker team did it I think in 2000, when the L7 Solos were new. A short time after, someone hit 147.1 with a single 8" L7. Not discrediting your set-up - that's pretty loud - just showing what is happening with progress. Subs are getting louder and better for their size. What used to be a 15" in a 3 cu ft box can now be achieved with a much smaller driver in a quarter of the space.

The 1500BD measures: 18.35" x 9.80" x 2.40" (1500 x 1 @ 2 ohms)

HiFonics Brutus 1508D: 11.42" x 9.45" x 2.52" (1500 x 1 @ 1 ohm)
MMATS D2100.05: 11.50" x 10.38" x 2.13" (1550 x 1 @ 1/2 ohm)

Show me a Class A/B amp that does 1500 W mono in a smaller package, and I will show you a Class D that is even smaller, and makes more power, and runs cooler. The point of Class D is that it doesn't need a large heat sink to stay cool.

Power @ 1/2 or 1ohms is substantially more than 2ohms hence the smaller chassis and same capability, however your amplifiers efficiency will drop quite a bit and it will run much hotter. Also it needs to be seen that no resistance on the other end would act like an open circuit, this could be fatal to your equipment too. If you drop below 2 ohms whether the amp is stable or not at that level it still is not going to last as long.

The Hifonics brand is mid-level, but the MMATS is a $1000 amp. These amps are designed for sustained 1 ohm and 1/2 ohm operation, respectively. They can do this because they are Class-D, about 90% efficient compared to the traditional A/B amp that is 75-80% efficient. A very small A/B amp would not be stable to 1 or 1/2 ohm as it would get too hot, but the Class D amp runs cooler and is smaller because it is more efficient.

Another benefit of Class D technology is lower price. The rise of Class D amps over the last 10 years partially explains the price drops, while at the same time we see the increasing power needed to drive the heavier subs. So part of it is sourcing from Asia, the other part is better amplifier technology. There is really no reason to use A/B amps for subwoofers other than to pay more, make more heat, and use a larger footprint.

Well I have a TRX2000D D class amp 1 ohm stable, but like I said its not a space saver its 20.625 inches long, my TRX 4.880 4 channel amp is 20.8 inches long. Same brand, same series, same year. Thats the key. I am also comparing the same brands of equipment new and old. I have and old school Sounstream Reference 700 (U.S.A. built also 1 ohm stable, 1/2 ohm stable stereo), it is built better than the new Soundstream tarantula series. Granted its a better line but, you must consider its also 15 years older.

I would happily pit that 700RMS 2 channel A/B amp against any 700 RMS 2 channel A/B amp of today and smile the whole time while listening to my almost antique amp smash its Chinese counterpart.

My point is unless your like me, and have a amp built by a manufacturer in the U.S.A., as well as an amp or in this case 2 amps built by the same manufacturer based in China you can actually do a physical and viable comparison. If you lack these to fixed parts of the equation then you can't compare. I can read reviews of what people tell me but when the evidence is right in front of my eyes and ears, its hard to shovel a guy shyt and call it sugar.

okay, first of all Whoever mentioned their 300 watt rockford vs the 1000 watt pyramid...The pyramid is rated at max output and the fosgate is rated at rms. No wonder the fosgate is putting out more. There are foreign companies that actually do rate their products properly, you just have to look at the specs. That 1000 watt pyramid only pushes like 240 watts rms and that's probably skewed a little because they're testing at a higher voltage than you would ever run it.

New fosgate stuff isn't american anymore, they were bought out, so stating that new fosgate will out power any other new equipment of equal value is false. Today one of the best amps to buy when looking at bang for buck is cadence. They are inexpensive amps that give true rms power ratings at 12.8v. They don't test at 15v and then make a fictitious max output number off that fake rms number. The big thing is, with some exceptions, you pay for quality. You can buy a cheap amp that will put out a lot of power, but it probably won't last very long. Hifonics amps actually put out a lot of power for the cost, but they don't have a very good track record for reliability.

Good points. Also, older Fosgate amps (I'm talking Punch DSMs from the early '90s) came with a data printout that showed the actual power output of the amp you purchased. They were rated 20 x 2 at 12v, but at 14-15 volts they consistently put out a lot more into 2 ohms, and with bridging it was possible for a Punch 40i to put out 105 WRMS x 1 according to the sheets I got with mine.

Nowadays I'm not sure if they do that any more, but those were good amps that I still run to this day. They were also very clean sounding, but huge in size for 40 watt amps.