Write-Up: No Start + 3 min delay / Disabling PASS-Key II Security

albertj wrote:

......I would pick a "maintenance" day in the future to replace the relay. I think it's called "anti theft relay" on rockauto.com - $11 to $24 bucks and a new one is yours...

Albertj

I agree. They all were running $24 up to $45+, but I found a new-in-bag one on eBay for $9.29 because this relay has evidently become common like the old "Black Bosch" relay: they use it for myriad other things like high-blower, fog-lights, fuel pump, radiator fans, etc.

I haven't replaced it yet (and haven't had a recurrence yet,) but I did pull all my mini-fuses and give them a cleaning with the Dremel wire-wheel. It was weird: the original owner didn't smoke, and I never smoke without an open window, yet all those fuse 'prongs' on the left end of the dash looked like they had been perched over an ashtray, condensing the tar from idling cigarettes...

It's a Tyco or Siemens (probably better) relay, GM # 12193601

Eldo wrote:

albertj wrote:

......I would pick a "maintenance" day in the future to replace the relay.  I think it's called "anti theft relay" on rockauto.com - $11 to $24 bucks and a new one is yours...

Albertj

I agree.  They all were running $24 up to $45+, but I found a new-in-bag one on eBay for $9.29 because this relay has evidently become common like the old "Black Bosch" relay:  they use it for myriad other things like high-blower, fog-lights, fuel pump, radiator fans, etc.

I haven't replaced it yet (and haven't had a recurrence yet,) but I did pull all my mini-fuses and give them a cleaning with the Dremel wire-wheel.   It was weird:  the original owner didn't smoke, and I never smoke without an open window, yet all those fuse 'prongs' on the left end of the dash looked like they had been perched over an ashtray, condensing the tar from idling cigarettes...

It's a Tyco or Siemens (probably better) relay, GM # 12193601

Not sure why you'd get deposits on those minifuses except that the box maybe got wet at some point, or that there was a residue of some sort - manufacturing oil, oxidation from age, the car was in a fire long ago... who knows... when I replaced my radiator I found a busted "R" emblem, matching the size and composition of the grille emblem... I had thought the car had been in a wreck when I bought it, looked like a VERY straight car with clear title but the paint looked too good; if it was in a wreck, it did not show up on the carfax but the car had an Indiana title and that's a place that titles get, ahem, "washed" through.  Just the same it is not uncommon in this area for used car front line prep to include a repaint of the front end... so I did not think twice about it. Until I found the emblem piece when, after *years* of owning the car, I was replacing the radiator.  Oh well it has not affected the car...

Albertj

I was having some trouble with the ignition key, occasionally after inserting and turning the key the engine would not crank and the security light would stay lit, after a period of time say 4 mins the car would crank. Well I researched this problem here on Riv Forum and found a write up saying that you could fix the problem by wiring a resistor somewhere in the ignition circuit. I talked to a locksmith about this and he agreed that it could be done but also said that the best fix was to replace the complete key and barrel.Now then I am Scottish and probably a cheap skate so I opted for the $125 fix instead of the $350 one, "BIG MISTAKE" It seems that trying to do this fix on a series 2 messes up the whole ignition system to the extent that I thought my car was going to be posted for spares. No one would touch it and 3 tows later I found a retired GM mechanic who liked Rivieras. His fix was to put the wires back to factory, replace the complete barrel and key an re program the computer at a cost of $500. The moral of this post is that if you are experiencing the same thing go for the proper fix in the first place.
OK the high dollars did hurt but the thought of loosing my Riv was unbearable.
Len Rapkins

I had the same thing happen to my '97, however it was out of the blue instead of a recurring problem. The security light was on and the engine would not crank, and the tow truck guy theorized someone had tried to steal it and the PASSkey had locked the engine. So I had it towed to my local Buick dealership and they discovered the wiring from a previous repair was simply loose. Those were the most expensive wire nuts I ever paid for ($275).

If they used wire nuts I would go back in and do it right with heatshrink and solder. Normally I'm a if it ain't broke don't fix it kind of person, but in this case the wire nuts will probably fall off eventually. I hate them and they hate me.

I'm confused.  Did you initially do the resistor mod? or replace the key and barrel?  Which are you suggesting messes up the series 2? (as many have done the resistor mod on the S2 with no issue, and it sure shouldn't cost $125.)  

If you did the key and barrel, then AFAIK it would still need programming for the new key resistance.  

And, all the resistor mod does is takes the key and barrel right out of the equation and sends the correct resistance to the PCM.(which the PCM is already programmed for.)

Len Rapkins wrote:

I talked to a locksmith about this and he agreed that it could be done but also said that the best fix was to replace the complete key and barrel.Now then I am Scottish and probably a cheap skate so I opted for the $125 fix instead of the $350 one, "BIG MISTAKE" It seems that trying to do this fix on a series 2 messes up the whole ignition system to the extent that I thought my car was going to be posted for spares. No one would touch it and 3 tows later I found a retired GM mechanic who liked Rivieras. His fix was to put the wires back to factory, replace the complete barrel and key an re program the computer at a cost of $500. The moral of this post is that if you are experiencing the same thing go for the proper fix in the first place.
OK the high dollars did hurt but the thought of loosing my Riv was unbearable.

I think what Len was saying is he had someone do the resistor mod for $175, then it turned out to - seemingly - make the problem worse. His solution: fix the ignition/lock cylinder + reprogram for $500.

I can see how something like this could happen, and I think I know what really happened. Either A) the first guy didn't perform the resistor fix correctly, or B) the problem was in the wiring or PCM the entire time, and the resistor wouldn't fix it anyway. I think the first option is likely. I suggest doing this mod yourself, or having someone you know do it for a low cost. It's really simple to do, takes almost no time at all, and can be reversed without any damage to the PCM or the car.

Takeaway from this experience: DON'T assume the resister mod made anything worse. My '98 is still starting after more than 150k miles of PASS-key disabling. If this were possible, it means that sticking the wrong key in the ignition could "mess up the whole ignition system". It's a bunch or hokum, fodder, BS, or whatever you want to call it.

DO assume your guy did something wrong (negligent or otherwise), or the problem was larger than the resistor to begin with. The PASS-key resistor mod is meant to be a cheap, 1st-round test fix to avoid the big costs of dealer-installed parts and labor. If it works, you luck out. If not, you are looking at a new lock cylinder. In our experience, it works most of the time. Saturn owners have a similar mod called the "white wire mod". I tried it on my friend's Ion after he experienced similar issues. Guess what? Worked like a charm.

The GM dealer did what GM dealers do - they profited from fixing an old car by replacing everything they could with as much service attached as possible. And of course they made the problem seem worse by pointing a finger at the short-cut repair as being part of the problem. Classic case of dealer service stealing from the brand-loyal owner and defending their case. It's sad really.

The ignition switch has internal reed switches that eventually fail.

Albertj

Hi I recently had the same issues. The problem is that the ignition system is not reading the chip in the key and the security system disables the ignition for approx 3 mins. I researched this problem and came across some posts suggesting that you can bypass the ignition reader by wiring a resistor into the system to bypass the key reader. I contacted a locksmith about this problem and he gave me 2 options ,1 the cheap way $150 to wire in the resistor and $295 to replace the ignition switch and key. I chose option 1, BIG MISTAKE,after 3 tow trucks (160) and $500 for an experienced GM mechanic to replace the ignition switch all is well again. So my advice is to get the ignition switch changed out and be done with it, save the grief and bite the bullet, there is no cheap quick fix for this problem. Good Luck.
Len Rapkins

It's unfortunate for Len that things did not go well, but this is not an open & shut case. There were other variables at play here (two other mechanics), and lots of oversimplifying to arrive at the above stated conclusion. To anyone reading who thinks you must shell out big money at the dealer to fix the security issue, there is a cheap (free) fix on page 13 of this thread. It worked for my car, and if it doesn't work for yours, just reconnect the wire! No harm done. You're not out anything except 1/2 hour of your time.

Do research. Read the factory shop manual, which supports the page 13 procedure. You don't even have to read it - all the info is copied right into the post! And if anyone tries to charge you $150-175 to perform the procedure on page 13, either they're doing it wrong, or you're about to be ripped off.

I was having the same issue with my rivi and ended up being like a $15 fix.  I got a new key made at my local Swaporama Flea market, LOL.  It works great, I haven't gotten stranded anywhere in a long time.  I just don't know if I need to reset the light or something because its staying on  

How to bypass your VATS.
First thing you want to do is take the black panel under the passenger side dash off. There are two 7mm screws holding it in. While your down there take the four 7mm screws that hold your glove box in off.
Then take the glove box out. It takes a bit of wiggling. There is a rubber stoper on the tab that stops your glove box from falling down. Taking that off will make things a little easier. Once you clear that tab be careful because there is a wire harness attached to the trunk release switch that you have to unclip. Your view should be something like this  
Now unclip your PCM from its bracket and lay it on the floorboard. Next take the three 10mm nuts off that hold the PCM bracket in. Then remove it.

Now you have to take an air duct out. There is one 7mm screw holding it in.

The HVAC programmer is on the outside of its bracket. Unclip it and lay it on the floorboard.

You should now have good access to the three 10mm nuts holding the HVAC bracket in. There are two at the top and one at the bottom located behind the kicker panel. I used an open end wrench for the far top nut and I pulled the kicker panel out a bit to get to the bottom one. Once you brake them lose you can easily take them off by hand. There is a wire harness clipped to the bracket that you should also unclip. When thats done you can pull the bracket out and have lots of room to work on the wires.

Take the electrical tape off of the VATS wire loom. Find the purple/white wire and the white/black wire. Cut them far enough away from the module that you can work on them easily.
If you havent already you need to find the resistance of your pellet like so.

Heres a chart of possible resistances to see if what you got is correct.  

Now its time to solder in the resistor

 I would clip that harness on the bracket back up and see if your car starts before putting everything back together but thats it. Just reverse the process. Your done!! I highly recommend this approach to anyone with this problem. Its a very easy fix that shouldnt take more then a hour or two even if you dont know what you're doing. Dont try and just take the bottom dash panel off and try to solder it. I damn near had a panic attack trying it that way. Sorry if this is not the best write up as i decided to do it when I was halfway done. I would like to give some credit to AA for the location of the VATS module and the correct wires to cut.

I'll be moving on from the Riv in the next couple of months (I figure ~9 years of ownership is pretty good!), but a new issue has cropped up. The Security light on the dash will stay illuminated after ignition and will stay on for 30-45 seconds. It will go off after less than a minute and will stay off until I turn the car entirely off, then crank it up again. The car runs normally.

I reset both of my key fobs to see if that would help. Nothing. Used both sets of keys I have - both lead to the same issue. In reading around on other Buick / GM forums, it sounds like it could be a sign of a failing security system module or a result of a loose gas cap (mine isn't loose as far as I can tell).

Anybody have any suggestions?

So. Finally got my car sorted....ok, almost. But! I did finally get it down to the ignition starter switch, thanks to Scott.

Initially thought it was the key cylinder so swapped that with a new one, which of course meant getting a blank chip key with the same resistance as my old one cut for the new cylinder.

However,

Now my cylinder turns full spectrum the way it's supposed to thanks to my new switch, but when I put the key in, no dinging, no control over anything. Like it thinks there's no key. What'd I screw up now?

I'm really hoping I just got the wrong resistance key.

-------------------------edit: just checked with my multimeter. They keys are perfect matches. I'm not sure why the key isn't registering.

::::::::::::update::::::::::::::

Key will register the chime now and will cause the dash lights to come on but when trying to start will hear the fuel pump hum for a moment a single click up front but no starter. Closer but still unsure why it's not working??

Still hoping someone can help me here. I figured I should eliminate the cylinder as a potentially faulty subject so I wired in a resistor bypass at the base of the wiring (a 4.7k ohm and a 47ohm) the ones I got where the only available and were 5% tolerance so my actual value pegged at 4603ohm. But this is within like +/- 3% of the key value so should be fine right?

Because after wiring it in the car remains the same. Power comes on but no start. Just blinking security light.

CORRECTION
I'm an idiot, my most basic math failed me. 3% is above 4607.5ohm. I grabbed a few more and highest I could get was 4690 so I threw her in and VROOM

SHE'S ALIVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!! !










!!!!!!!!!

Great job Evan, you've again shown patience and skill.
Glad the black beauty is alive and well.
(PM sent)

Will running a jump wire to the solenoid and using a bump button work?

IFallsRon wrote:

Will running a jump wire to the solenoid and using a bump button work?

It should get you a crank but not sure it will get you a start if the car is stock otherwise b/c IIRC passkey won't enable the injectors unless it's armed. Or some such.

Albertj

Has anyone tried the relearn procedure?

1.   Insert ignition key and turn to the “ON” position.  Do not attempt to start the engine.  Leave  
  the key in the “ON” position for approximately 11 minutes. The security light will be steady    
  on or flashing for the 11-minute period.  Do not proceed to Step 2 until the security light    
  turns off or stops flashing.
2.   Turn the ignition switch to the “OFF” position for 30 seconds.
3.   Turn the ignition switch to the “ON” position as in Step 1 for 11 minutes.
4.   Turn the ignition switch to the “OFF” position for 30 seconds.
5.   Turn the ignition switch to the “ON” position as in Step 1 for 11 minutes for a third time.
6.   Turn the ignition switch to the “OFF” position for 30 seconds for a third time.
7.   Turn the ignition switch to the “ON” position for 30 seconds.
8.   Turn the ignition switch to the “OFF” position.
9.   Attempt to start the engine.
If the engine starts and runs, the relearn is complete.


And, I know that my battery is near the end of its life:

"The heart of the VATS system is the ability of the computer to read a precise voltage drop. If the battery is discharged, the voltage going through the key will be reduced and the computer will never be able to get a correct reading. Always make sure that the battery is fully charged before you start an interrogation. If necessary hook up jumper cables or use a jump box to make sure you have full voltage."

IFallsRon wrote:

Has anyone tried the relearn procedure?

1.   Insert ignition key and turn to the “ON” position.  Do not attempt to start the engine.  Leave  [much omitted]


And, I know that my battery is near the end of its life:

"The heart of the VATS system is the ability of the computer to read a precise voltage drop.  If the battery is discharged, the voltage going through the key will be reduced and the computer will never be able to get a correct reading.  Always make sure that the battery is fully charged before you start an interrogation.  If necessary hook up jumper cables or use a jump box to make sure you have full voltage."

I recently got a Volvo and the VIDA/DiCE factory scan tool.

When one is running diagnostics with that tool, it constantly displays battery voltage in a corner of the screen.

Len, you would be impressed by how quickly battery voltage sags, if battery is marginal. It took less than 5 minutes for my battery to drop from 12.4 to about 11 volts.

Looking at the relearn procedure -- if you don't hook the car up to a maintainer of some sort it's entirely possible that you could get the VATS to "learn" a bogus value.

I wasn't watching your battery voltage BUT if my experience on the Volvo obtains on the Riv as to battery use key-off, it would be smart to check the charging system and replace that battery.

Albertj

I stumbled onto a recall notice:


Recall Subject: Electrical System > Ignition > Anti-theft Controller

Report Receipt Date: 1995-10-23

NHTSA Campaign: 95V204000

Manufacture: GENERAL MOTORS CORP.
Summary:

These vehicles were assembled with a malfunction alarm, lighting and locking (mall) module that can contain a damaged capacitor. If the capacitor is damaged, the "key in the ignition" warning chime and the driver seat belt unbuckled warning chime and indicator lamp may not work. This does not meet the requirements of fmvss no. 114, "theft protection" and fmvss no. 208, "occupant crash protection." In addition, other chime reminder functions, interior lighting controls, and power door locking features are also affected.
Consequence

Consequence of non-compliance; the driver may not be aware that the key was left in the ignition or that the safety belt was not buckled.
Remedy:

Dealers will inspect and, if required, replace the mall module.
Notes:

System: electrical; ignition; anti-theft; fmvss no. 114 and no. 208.Vehicle description: passenger vehicles.Note: owners who take their vehicles to an authorized dealer on an agreed upon service date and do not receive the free remedy within a reasonable time should contact buick at 1-800-521-7300; oldsmobile at 1-800-442-6537; or pontiac at 1-800-762-2737. Also contact the national highway traffic safety administration's auto safety hotline at 1-800-424-9393.


A 97 Grand Prix has MALL PGM and MALL breakers in the fuse block. I don't see that anywhere on the Riv panels.

Hello. I can follow the instructions above for bypassing the VATS by going directly to the VATSs module, but I get lost when Setton removes the HVAC bracket. Is the VATs module attached to the back side of the HVAC bracket? Thanks.

The VATS is bracketed on the outward side after you remove the PCM and bracket. Setton's doesn't tell his year. Mine is different but once you start start removing things it will make sense.

It takes some effort to release it and slide it down. There are plastic clips that need to be spread. On my 97, I had to squeeze/pull and allow it to come down a click and squeeze/pull again. It was harder to get the plug out. I had a harder time putting mine back.

A small-blade (like glasses size) screwdriver helps. Patience is your friend. And don't be shocked that it turns into a one-hand operation.

1998 Riveria with Supercharger.  Over 175K.  I've read all 14 pages of this post that's been banging around since 2011.  I had the PassKeyII issue and wired in the correct resistor by going underneath the dashboard to accomplish the mission.  Have only had a few intermittent, say 1 in 20 no starts, but waiting 3 minutes even after the resistor was wired in place tells me I have a bigger issue.  The question is...what?  I once grabbed a VATS or perhaps it should technically be called at TDM or "Theft Control Module" that is located on the right side of the car, under the kick plate to the right of the glove compartment.  I took the VATS/TDM from the Aurora and tried to start the car BEFORE the resistor trick and nothing happened.  So I concluded that the VATS/TDM would have to be "programmed" someway, somehow.  Don't know if "programming a VATS/TDM is something done by a user, as often times many of these situations allow the owner to accomplish this IF you know the correct sequence, such as the "relearn sequence" from ILearnRon five posts up on page 14.  The last time I had the problem, about three weeks ago, I was stuck in a parking lot with a lot of rain, and I used the last of my cell phone to actually find this "relearn sequence" and about 20 minutes later it started and I drove it home and said "I'm done" with this, until I get it properly fixed someway, somehow.  So, given that I have an Aurora module that appears to be needing a reprogramming, the question is...by who...me or the dealer, and if the dealer, can the module be reprogrammed OFF the car, or does he need to car to affect the programming?  Second. I've do the Albertj trick of cleaning the ignition switch contacts to no avail, and given that I wired in a resistor, this seems like something that doesn't need to be done.  I can buy an ignition tumbler assembly off of eBay for about 60 bucks, (RockAuto is about $120), but I don't know if that would solve the problem.  And, if you buy an ignition module off of eBay, do you need to get new keys?  My key measures resistance values that are consistent with #4, 887 ohms as listed above on page 14 as posted by Setton above (and thanks for the pictures).  So say I buy the lock cylinder off eBay do they provide the number 4 key, or give you a key blank and say, well, it'll match a #6 at 1470 ohms, so go get a resistor key with a 1470 ohm resistor and you're home free. Or does the VATS/TDM have to be reprogrammed to accept the 1470 ohm value.  See, this is where it gets confusing.  There's the $60 part, plus keys, plus reprogramming OR, look into the Luca www.newrockies.com solution which makes all ills go away for $279 bucks.  I know Albertj wasn't too enthused with Luca's fix, but that was in 2012, I think, and a lot of water's gone under the bridge. I don't care about theft.  I just want the car to start reliably in the morning when I have a flight to catch or needed to at the judges office and the starter wouldn't engage on the BMW (you try convincing a judge that you were having "car problems"...like they never heard that one before).   So it comes down, IMHO, to

1.  New lock cylinder with new keys and maybe a reprogramming of the VATS/TDM (pain in dupa)
2.  VATS/TDM from Aurora correctly programmed and hope for the best (prob more expensive and pain still in dupa)
3.  The Luca www.newrockies.com solution. ($$$ but quick, 30 day MBG, but no knowledge)

I have the money, but I just like to DIY for the learning experience, although working upside down at age 68 in cold weather is right up there with root canals sometime.

I'd like to throw this out to the brethren and see what the learned men and wimmen from their various chairs of wisdom come up with.