Broken crank pulley leads to timing cover removal

today has not been a good day.
got into town yesterday and the car ran great. washed it, parked it overnight and went to go to the store this morning.
the car ran rough, but had no code and nothing looked broken. ran it to the store, then when i was leaving the store it ran fine again. thought maybe i had some bad gas or broken vac line.
went to get lunch and popped the hood again to give it a once over again. this time the car had trouble starting but it finally did. problem is it had 0 power! i mean no matter how much gas i gave it it had a hard time getting the rpms over 1500. i immediately pulled it into the next parking space and shut it down. looked things over again and found a small crack in a vac line going to a sensor on the back of the s/c. fixed it with duct tape, but the car will not start at all now.

here is what i have done so far.
1.got new vac fitting and fixed it right. still same problem
2.checked all other vac lines and they are all like new
3.checked for loss fluids, metal in oil, burnt fluid. nothing out of the ordinary
4. tried starting it with MAF unplugged. no change
5.tried it with intake off. no difference, but there was smoke coming from the TB (likely from me trying to start it so much)
6.tried starting it with starter fluid.(didnt use much before i realized it probably wasnt even making it past the rotors)
7. had it towed home
8. replaced fuel filter with new acdelco (dad's suggestion)
9. pulled every plug. all looked new still(changed them a week ago). no oil on them, but some of them were black and had fuel on them.
10. checked for fuel pressure on the rail. got pressure
11. scanned for codes and check tps for input. NO CODES, and TPS reads fine.
12. came here...

i am at a total loss as to what the problem is. no code leads me to think crank position sensor, but why would it run so rough on the road? the sensor isnt that old to begin with too.

when i was driving it earlier, and it wasnt feeling right, i punched it and it had no acceleration.(as if it had no boost) rpms were really slow to climb and i did 30-60 in like 7 seconds

please help! i've already spent $100 on a tow, fuel filter and vac line and i have a no start condition still.
what else can i check? it has to be air/fuel sensor related right? fuel pump makes a buzz with key on. can a faulty IAC cause a no start? FPR? or is this something more serious like a damaged piston?

Matthew

Sorry to hear about the trouble...

Well, I'm stumped. How many miles are on the O2 sensor? Might be worth replacing it just in case. I don't think it's vac related because that shouldn't keep you from building RPMs.

You just inspected the plugs. What condition were the ignition wires? Any chance you crossed or damaged a wire? Also, maybe test coils for spark.

car ran great yesterday. wires cant be crossed. they arent that old and they are delco wires. the motor didnt studder at all or have any misfires when it was running bad. it just had no power like all of the timing was taken or like the A/F was soo far off the grid.

O2 is OEM with 150k miles. would that throw a code though? i need to replace it anyways.

thanks for the response.

I think your coils are shot

how can i test them?

You said the plugs were wet with fuel when you pulled them, so it's not likely to be a fuel issue.
Test coils and see if your getting good spark next.
Check ground on ign. module.

ok i just tested the front 3 plugs/wires/coils by grounding them on the manifold and watching for spark.
all 3 spark just fine.
so that rules out wires,plugs and coils right?

any way to test the O2 before i go out to get a new one? i hooked up my scanner and its reading voltage with the key on, but i dont know if that means anything. (showed anything from .500-.600v and up to .700v while cranking)

bad O2 sensor will throw a code

if the fuel pump is dying, but not all the way gone will i have this problem? fuel sprays out from the line fitting and the pump makes noise, but could it not be enough pressure to run the car?
can anyone list the sensors that can cause a no start?
guy at advance auto said O2 was not one of them, but then again he may not be the most credible guy.(older guy who said he was a mech at a dealership before)

If you don't already have one, you can buy an inexpensive fuel pressure gauge for about $30.00 to test your "cranking" and "key on" pressures.
The only sensors that come to mind that can cause a no start without a code would be the crank and/or cam position sensors.
I'm sure someone else can chime in here that has more experience and knowledge.

I don't think the O2 will cause no start, but at 150k miles, you may want to replace. A completely dead O2 will trip SES light after 2 or 3 trips.

I can send you a fuel pressure meter to borrow if you have time to spare.

I would almost put money on it being crank or cam position sensor. Just a feeling, although I've never had problems with either. Would think something like that could cause no start. This definitely feels electronic, imo.

I think Rick is right.

If you replaced the crank sensor with a low-spec one (that is, one NOT a Delphi or other good brand) it' s not unheard of for them to crap out after ~year or 2.

The other thing - check the *wiring* to the crank sensor. Maybe there was incidental damage.

Albertj

Sorry I'm late on this - it's very clear you have fuel, your problem is spark. Crank sensor, cam sensor, coils... that's about it. Does the computer have a stored code?

Don't bother with 'emissions' parts, you are dealing with a no-start. The O2 sensor is not related.

it shows one code now.
P1406 which is for EGR. i dont even have egr on my car anymore, and tony deleted one of the egr codes.

if it is the crank or cam sensor, would it cause the car to run really slow before crapping out? ie: no power, no rpms, etc.

Mr.Riviera wrote:

if it is the crank or cam sensor, would it cause the car to run really slow before crapping out? ie: no power, no rpms, etc.

Yes, it could

ok thanks for all the help! i think you guys nailed it. CKP sensor.
this morning i had a small oil puddle under the balancer. sure enough, i pull the main bolt and the balancer FALLS OFF! no puller needed. keep in mind this was a brand new balancer from AZ not even a year ago. needless to say i will be returning it and getting a different one. the metal shaft shattered after 7 months.
i'm not sure is the CKP is damaged or not, but i'll be replacing it anyways.

so the crank sensor looks brand new still. what are the chances of it being bad at the same time as the ballancer? or the balancer damaging it internally?

also, i have oil leaking from behind the balancer, but i recently replaced the main seal and havent have a problem with it. it doesnt look damaged either.
my question is, does oil normally leak out a little behind the crank pulley even with a good front main seal? or would oil only be leaking if the seal was bad?

TIA,
Matthew

I would replace the seal, pulley and sensor.
Not worth trying to replace the seal and sensor later, if they are bad.
Besides, a bad pulley can easily wipe out the seal.

had to order all the parts, but they will be here in the morning. went to the dealer to get the better quality stuff too.
got a new crank bolt, ballancer, and keyway. CKP sensor doesnt have a mark on it and a new one is $70. i will just pull it back apart and replace it again if it doesnt crank this time.

as for the seal, i'm going to take another look at it. it isnt leaking much oil, and i'm thinking the balancer helps hold the seal right?
i really dont have much $$ left to drop on the car right now. ($75 for the tow, $170 for parts so far).

thanks for all the help so far. this forum is invaluable!

Glad things are looking up! On the bright side, you just diagnosed and fixed a serious problem that most people would pay $1000+... for about $250.

Plus we all learn a little more about troubleshooting and repairing one of the few trouble spots we see with these cars. Well done gang. "to many more trouble free miles"

The balancer rides on the inside of the seal, forming the seal. I'd hanker to guess here that your second balancer wasn't seated all the way. It's not easy to get the balancer all the way on, for sure. You can tighten the bolt, but if the balancer isn't all the way down before you put the bolt in, it's not going to hold.

There is a balancer installer tool, sort of like a backwards gear puller, but I haven't seen one made specifically for the 3800. Generally people use a block of wood and a BFH to get the balancer all the way down. You might be able to do it through the wheel well with a long 4x4.

i'll try the BFH method

right now i need to get the broken keyway out of the crankshaft
it's almost flush with the ring so i cant get needle nose pliers to even grip it. i guess i'll need an extractor set or can i just use a metal drill bit and pull it out in pieces?

Might be a good time to replace your timing chain!!

i thought about that, but i dont have any more money to drop on parts.
i could list a lot of things i could replace "while i'm in there" but $$ is tight when you're paying for college on your own and the car breaks on your vacation.

still cant get the key out of the crankshaft...been working on it almost solid since yesterday.
got the parts in this morning.($167 w/discount)
new balancer, crank bolt, main seal and keyway.
now if i can just get the old keyway out of the car i'll be home free. it broke off at the half way point and flush with the crank so i cant get anything to grip it. i was able to drill a small hole in it, twist a screw in the hold and yank (really F-in hard) to get the key out a little, but then i tried tapping on it with a pick to get it looser but instead it went back in the hole. back to square one, but now i have a broken screw tip stuck in it.

...going to hardware store for another drill bit.
any other tricks?