FAQ: Rough / Slow / No Start - Symptoms, Causes, Solutions

The ELC is the electronic leveling system.nothing to do with your problem unless you had the vatos over at Vatozone re-wire your car.
Tell the good lady a autozone to shove her comments back into her vent hole.
Do a search here,for CPS. it might be time to replace it.

RivieraRyan wrote:

Ok, so I was taking some pictures and video of my "battery area" and of me trying to start the car. In the midst of doing this I decided to check the fuses in the box connected to the positive battery cable and all of them were intact except for the 20 fuse that was in the slot of the ELC(electronic level control). I'm not sure if this was causing my problem or not so I went back to auto zone and replaced the fuse, but the car still wouldn't start so I figured maybe that fuse being blown was draining my battery. I went back to auto zone to get it recharged and when I got it back the lady "checked" it and said it was bad. She said the guy who gave it back to me yesterday and said "it was cool" probably just charged it and didn't check it. So I am going to get a new battery tomorrow morning but I am curious as to what effects that fuse has. Also, all my cables seem to be intact and fine. The lady also said the battery I currently have is not a vented battery and she is surprised that it has lasted so long already. I took the pics on my phone and will try to post them.

robotennis61 wrote:

The ELC is the electronic leveling system.nothing to do with your problem unless you had the vatos over at Vatozone re-wire your car.
Tell the good lady a autozone to shove her comments back into her vent hole.
Do a search here,for CPS. it might be time to replace it.

Vatozone (that's cute Robo) sells the correct battery.... for $150. I suspect you actually do need a battery but at the same time the lady probably reckons she can make a sale. As for "checking" the battery it does not take very long. You can deduce an awful lot about battery condition just by using a hygrometer to check the state of charge (tough with our sealed batteries though) and checking the voltage. For instance a battery that is showing less than 10V when disconnected probably has a dead cell and can't really be recharged worth a darn. Check your local "Yellow Pages" for an Interstate Battery dealer, and see if they have one for less. They are *highly* likely to have a better "cash and carry" price for you than $150, I am thinking ~$125-$140. Also check your local GM dealer, it would not surprise me at all if they had the battery at a good price. I bought my last battery at my local GM dealer after shopping around. The OE batteries are *very* good.

If you really need to cheap out on the battery try a junkyard. These batteries were used in GM vehicles from the early 90s through 2006 or 2007 in the Aurora, Bonneville, Deville, DTS, Express Vans, H1, H2, Hummer, Lucerne, Riviera, Savana and Seville (acc to one battery web site). I suspect if you make some calls to junkyards you will find a battery that is just fine out of a junker for short money, like $25 - $50. *AND* if you go the junkyard route they will probably give you the vent tubing if you ask for it. The dirty little secret is that any vent tubing that fits the battery top will work, except you just might to get some plastic (preferably PEx) tubing from Lowes or Home Depot to go from the part that snaps on the battery to the part that goes out the floor of the car and you may need to/want to use a little silicone caulk to make sure the tubing stays on the grommet. The venting for the under-seat Aurora and Caddy batteries, I think, fits without too much fuss. Not all of them went under-seat. Point is you need a oinking big battery because the Riv uses a lot of power when the car is supposedly "off" and you *Must* vent the fumes out of the passenger compartment becuase if the fumes don't get your nose they will get your upholstery and floor in short time.

Now let's talk about the ELC. I suspect your ELC is not working and the fuse blew because the compressor overheated or was running too much or some such. You need to jack the back end up and have a look... *after* we get the car running. For now, do you think it's a problem just leaving the ELC fuse out? Do you think we can get the car running, then visually inspect the ELC compnents and fix obvious problems, then put the fuse back?

Also finally Robo is onto something with the CPS (crank position sensor). At high mileage they tend to go and they have two annoying characteristics when they do:

1) they usually go 'bad warm' first, meaning the car will start/run cold but if you stop it and try to restart warm it won't.
2) when they fail they almost never set a fault code because their failure prevents the PCM from finishing the start up self check sequence.

Cheapest way to replace the CPS is do it yourself, however you need to know how to pull and replace the flywheel, which on these cars is in a kinda tight spot and requires different bolts than the ones normally in a "universal" HB puller. YOu **need** the puller if only because without one (and maybe with one if you are ham-handed) you will destroy the HB trying to get it off. A GM dealer will replace it for around $150 I think, decent independent mechanic probably less. Oh yeah and don't buy a cheapie "economy" CPS, they won't work that long, get a Delphi or Delco. They can run you as much as $75.

All that said - any mechanic with a decent scan tool can connect that scanner to your car to see if the CPS is sending pulses during start-up. If it is then it might not be your problem you can leave it.

FINALLY, check the wiring on the harness from the ignition module (under the coil packs) to the firewall especially at the connectors, the wires on the connector's corners on some older Rivs have fatigued with age and broken. Also if there is any evidence that someone has serviced your coils in the past, if they did not install the ignition module right (with heat sink grease) it maybe/probably failed (that will give you a nostart) from overheating (it *will* corrode and overheat if you do not use silicone tune-up grease or other dielectric grease on the mounting plate).

and by the way Ryan you might wanna post those pictures, it will help us all see what we are up against.

Albertj

Albert I'm not nearly as knowledgeable about cars as you are so I don't want to second guess anything you say but I do have a good memory and I remember reading on here about someone who had a problem AFTER removing the elc fuse from the box. If I remember correctly without that fuse for some reason the poster was getting significantly lower batt readings. Once he replaced that fuse many of his problems went away. Something about that fuse was causing the poster to get readings around 10.4 volts with that fuse removed. Does that ring a bell to you? I tried searching but couldn't find it. Maybe a blown fuse would cause the same problem? I hope I'm not confusing things here. Also Ryan it is absolutely critical that you buy the correct battery. You mentioned not having the proper vented battery and while any battery will work to power the car eventually the fumes off the battery will cause corrosion to the battery cables and underseat fuse boxes as well as the floorpan itsself. So while the lady at autozone may have been trying to make a sale, she was right about needing a new battery, even if purely by luck.

If you have an afttermarket battery,a Optima,there is a vent on the battery you can attach a hose or tube to,and vent outside.there is a hole to the left of the battery for this. if you have a different aftermarket battery,you can also do this trick.

Thanks for all the help guys. I went to auto zone this morning and got that battery that was 150. I paid 144 w/ tax and the core exchange. I put the new battery in and the car started up immediately. The battery is big as shit! The battery I had in prior came w/ the car when I purchased it 3 years ago. The lady said it was used in most Le Sabres and Regals. My plastic tube doesn't extend fully to the side of the battery where the vent is. I guess I'm missing the adapter piece. I took like 14 pics and 2 videos of the area but when trying to post them last night it was taking too much time so I just chalked it for the time being and figured I'd post em' if the new battery didn't work. One thing I did notice right away was that my Stability Control System(not sure if that's the proper term) started working again. I hadn't realized it stopped but every time I park now I hear it clearly. I don't know if this is because the battery was so weak it just couldn't support that feature any longer or because the ELC fuse blew. Albert, when you say compressor Im assuming you mean the A/C compressor and if that's correct then that makes sense because my A/C compressor went like a year and a half ago. I couldn't even find the damn thing other than new from GM and it was like 700 and any mechanic place i talked to said it was gonna cost me around 1500 to replace(including the part) but I went to craigslist and found a guy who went to 3 different junkyards and found the a/c compressor for 140 and put it in for me for like 70 i think. Only problem is that my a/c doesnt work because the a/c compressor he put in didn't have this little, wiry piece that goes in the middle of the compressor but my car has run fine since and I only paid 210 for the whole job so I really couldn't complain. It sucks on some of these hot summer days though. Also, I got my car scanned like May last year because my SES light had been on for a while and is still on and it turned out my ignition module was bad and I had a bad 1/4 coil pack. I got both of them replaced. One other code that came up was 1670 Quad Driver and I think another about my fuel trim lean. I can't find the paper w/ the codes on it and the guy at auto zone said his scan tool was "acting up" when he tried to read it earlier today. I will take some pics of my car in general because I've never posted any. I'll put some up soon.

Derek wrote:

Albert I'm not nearly as knowledgeable about cars as you are so I don't want to second guess anything you say but I do have a good memory and I remember reading on here about someone who had a problem AFTER removing the elc fuse from the box. If I remember correctly without that fuse for some reason the poster was getting significantly lower batt readings. Once he replaced that fuse many of his problems went away. Something about that fuse was causing the poster to get readings around 10.4 volts with that fuse removed. Does that ring a bell to you? I tried searching but couldn't find it. Maybe a blown fuse would cause the same problem? I hope I'm not confusing things here. Also Ryan it is absolutely critical that you buy the correct battery. You mentioned not having the proper vented battery and while any battery will work to power the car eventually the fumes off the battery will cause corrosion to the battery cables and underseat fuse boxes as well as the floorpan itsself. So while the lady at autozone may have been trying to make a sale, she was right about needing a new battery, even if purely by luck.

You're knowledgeable enough. Let's focus on your car.

First - I do not recall posts about someone with lower battery readings after removing the ELC fuse.

Second - Your car does not have a stability control system, other than the traction control that is run by the antilock braking system. You do have an electronic level control, the ELC. The ELC is supposed to let the air out of the shocks a while after you park the car in order to extend the life of the struts. Basically what this does in a working system is blow dry air back thru the air drier and takes the load off the shocks to let the car rest on its springs. If it (the ELC) is doing anything else, for instance if it is running when you park the car, something is wrong because the level so to speak should have settled well before then. That is a symptom of running too much and would probably be why it blew in the first place. No offense, but really I *do not* mean the A/C compressor. Please let me explain. The ELC has a little electric air compressor that runs when a lever attached to the suspension closes a switch. It sounds faintly like the little electric 12v air compressors you can buy to keep in the trunk to top off air in tires, blow up footballs, and what not. Anyway -- when the rear suspension is too low, the switch closes and after a short delay, the ELC turns on the compressor and runs it until the switch opens again. The lever is positioned such that when the switch opens then the car's suspension is at (or above) the right "attitude" as observed front-to-back of the car. If the shocks are leaking then the compressor will run for ~90 seconds, and stop whether you're level or not. After a delay, if the switch is still closed it will run again. And again and again. Until it reaches level or blows the fuse.

So I will quietly reiterate that you ought to consider taking the fuse out and inspecting the system. As for that inspection, you will find the air compressor above and fore of the rear suspension arms. You might need the factory manual for the troubleshooting *but* they often come up on eBay for short money. It is most likely that if your compressor and lines are still good then you can fix the system by installing a new pair of air shocks. Many folks on this list use the Monroe MA-822 shocks. They fit right on the factory lines. They will cost you less than $80.- the pair out the door or via rockauto.com or many other mail/web order places. rockauto.com also sells rear shocks with "coilover" assist springs that you can replace those shocks with and disconnect the air compressor if you want, but I do not recommend disconnecting an otherwise working system. IIRC most Rivs will run 100000 to 150000 miles on a set of air shocks before the shocks need replaced from wearout. Rustout is a differnt problem but obvious when you look, they cases bulge and begin to seep oil. Full disclosure: I have factory shocks on my Riv, I am on my 3rd set of them, got them in a warehouse closeout deal from Rockauto.com. I would consider MA-822s but don't use them ATM. If I was buying a set today I'd probably get the KYBs instead of Monroes.

As for the AC compressor, sorry for your trouble. New compressors are somewhat less $$ now (GM has used them on a lot more cars) and it may be you'd want to look at that again after fixing this other stuff. Or do you think you might have the Craigslist guy scrounge another used replacement? The AC helps defog windows year-round among other things. Be sure to purge and flush the system.

As for the battery you now have, do you think you might get some plastic (preferably PEx) tubing from Lowes or Home Depot to go from the part that snaps on the battery to the part that goes out the floor of the car? ...and you may need to/want to use a little silicone caulk to make sure the tubing stays connected.

As for the remaining codes, do you think that checking the wiring harness from the ignition module to the firewall might help?

Hope you're having a good day otherwise, and that all this helps somehow... and keep us posted so we can help you fix your car.

I'm back to square one now. The car worked fine yesterday and Tuesday and earlier today. I went to my cousin's house for a bit then came back and tried to start the car and am running into the same issue as before. Wtf is going on?

RivieraRyan wrote:

I'm back to square one now. The car worked fine yesterday and Tuesday and earlier today. I went to my cousin's house for a bit then came back and tried to start the car and am running into the same issue as before. Wtf is going on?

I know you saw the comments about the ELC compressor in my prior post, but if I am not mistaken you pluggged in the ELC fuse and left it there. Do you think it would be a good idea to figure out why that fuse blew in the first place, and do you need help to do that?


Albertj

Yes, I would need help to do that. I checked the fusebox again and that same fuse has blown. Is it possible that there is something draining my battery? The battery is brand new and the car won't start. These are the first pics I took w/ the old battery in place. I'll take some new pics w/ my new battery in place later today. Are there any particular areas/shots I should take pics of? I guess I could take a couple videos too and post them on youtube.




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OK, one step at at time and thanks for the pictures.

If I remember right did you say you have a car battery charger? First thing, recharge your new battery so it has a full charge. With my charger (a small Black & Decker automatic) that would take several hours.

While the battery is charging, you need to look under the car. If you have someplace to work (preferably a garage) you will need a floor jack and a pair of jackstands, or a pair of ramps. You will need to either jack up the car and set it on jackstands or back it onto ramps (with the big rear overhang this is a mean trick).

When under the car you need to look at the rear suspension. There are a couple steel bars that extend from a shackle crossways between the rear wheels. Those are the lateral arms. On the sied of the lateral arms that is closer to the front of the car, if you look around you will find something that looks like an electric motor connected to a box with some plastic tubes that come out of it and extend to the rear shock absorbers (unless your suspension was modified).

What we need pictures of now is that box, just 1 or 2 shots. Then follow the lines toward the rear shocks and look for any place the lines rub up against something (there should not be any). Next pictures - a picture of each rear shock. I am looking for cracks in the rubber bladder on the shock and rust anywhere on the shock body. If your shocks have coil springs around them instead f the rubber bladders the rest of this note is void, you need to post pics of them and we'll try something else.

anyway, assuming you have the OE suspenseion under there...

Next you will need a pump spray bottle (an old window cleaner bottle will do fine) and you will make up a soap solution (couple tablespoons of dish liquid in the bottle then fill it with water and shake to mix). Making sure that the wheels are chocked (block the front wheels with wheel chocks of adequate size) and the car is in PARK install a good ELC fuse, then the battery, then start the car. With the car running, taking care to avoid the exhaust componenets, spray the soapy water liberally on the rear shocks. the spray will be sudsy but what you are looking to do is spray the shocks all over top to bottom until *wet* then look at the wet areas. You will likely see air bubbles coming out of the rubber bladders on the shocks, or maybe the upper metal casing, when the compressor kicks on (you will *know* when this happens, it makes a racket under the car).

If not, spray on the lines working from the shocks back. You may find a leak at an abrasion or cut. Finally if you have not found a leak, carefully spray where those air lines go into the compressor.

Do you think you can report back after you do all this and tell us what you saw?

Albertj

No I don't have a battery charger but I can always take it to auto zone to get it charged. The only jack I have is the one the car came with, the one w/ the wind up by hand. So you think the shocks box or compressor is draining my battery?

I think albertj is on the right track. If you can't reasonably jack up the car, which a lot of people can't from lack of equipment or space, at least you can figure out if a discharged battery is the issue.

A battery charger will be very cheap at Wal-Mart or other discount place, and it's a good thing to have around the house anyway. I'd get one.

Another doohickey that costs more but that's saved my butt more than once is a portable battery booster. Take it along with you and when you have a sudden no-start condition, connect it up and see what happens. If the car fires up, at least you'll know that a discharged battery is your problem.

I have one of these, but there are other brands around


If by one of these means you can figure out it's a battery drain, then on the basis of the blown fuse, I'd say you have a good case to have your mechanic put it on the lift and look into the rear suspension.

RivieraRyan wrote:

No I don't have a battery charger but I can always take it to auto zone to get it charged. The only jack I have is the one the car came with, the one w/ the wind up by hand. So you think the shocks box or compressor is draining my battery?

I actually have no idea what's draining your battery, except your ELC fuse keeps blowing and I outlined how to trouleshoot for leaks in that system because those leaks would lead to the ELC compressor running too much which in turn would lead to blowing the fuse. So all I can do is that outline, until you get out there and do the work.

Albertj

RivieraRyan wrote:

"I have a 95 SC riviera and it wont start. I just got the battery tested/charged at auto zone and they say its fine. When I put the key in the car all the lights come on but when I turn it all I hear is a click noise."

"When I would try and start it, sometimes it wouldn't start right away. I would have to turn the key several times w/ no crank and after so many tries it would start, sometimes 2-4 and one time over 10."
"I went to Acme and cut the car off, went inside for like 10 minutes and came back out. I had to turn the key 2 times and the car started."

Ryan, having read this thread,

- My first question would be whether the HEADlights are bright or dim in the first situation.

- The 2nd thing I'm thinking is a bad ignition switch. (Remember, every time you twist the key there will be other systems that 'click', but multiple stabs at the starter are intriguing...)

- It IS entirely possible that you have a bad connection, as others have said, between the battery and the underhood junction.

- You may well have a problem with the Level Ride (ELC), but as Albert said: 1.) it's not supposed to run when the key is off, unless someone messed with it; 2.) It is not going to be drawing juice when the fuse is blown - stop replacing that fuse for now... leave it empty.

Okay, this is weird. So my car wasn't starting for like a week, but I would frequently cross my fingers and turn the key with hopes that it would eventually start. So about 3 days ago it started right up on the first turn and I've been driving it for the past 3 days and a couple times I had to turn the key 10-15 times w/ no crank before it would start. I assume because the car was sitting for a week, the battery had time to charge and had enough power to start. I didn't replace the ELC fuse this time and I'm facing the same issues so I guess thats not draining my battery. Mark, to answer your question, my headlights were dim before I replaced the battery but I just blamed that on the battery being bad. Is there anyway I can check for a bad ignition switch?

RivieraRyan wrote:

Okay, this is weird. So my car wasn't starting for like a week, but I would frequently cross my fingers and turn the key with hopes that it would eventually start. So about 3 days ago it started right up on the first turn and I've been driving it for the past 3 days and a couple times I had to turn the key 10-15 times w/ no crank before it would start. I assume because the car was sitting for a week, the battery had time to charge and had enough power to start. I didn't replace the ELC fuse this time and I'm facing the same issues so I guess thats not draining my battery. Mark, to answer your question, my headlights were dim before I replaced the battery but I just blamed that on the battery being bad. Is there anyway I can check for a bad ignition switch?

1) batteries do recover somewhat when sitting but absolutely don't charge themselves.
2) at the age of your car, I'd replace the ignition switch anyway. It separates from the lock, available rockauto.com or GM dealers.
3) its not uncommon for cars yours' age to have multiple problems all at the same time. That is, the ELC can be wack and the ignition switch and the crank sensor and whatever, all at the same time. Would come from 2 reasons. One, lack of preventive meintenance and two, non-repair if only because when you take the car to a dealer to be repaired if they can not find the problem (often the case in intermittent failures) they won't fix anything.

The only way out of this hole is to keep fixing items one at a time, until the reliable operation of th evehicle signals that you are done. And oh by the way before you get in too deep inspect the rear suspension carrier and the front cradle -- if they are too rusty it might not be worth it. .

I have the same problem with my Riv, It's the connection, when I start up sometimes it starts fine other times I have to reach under the seat and pull and the hold cable forward and kind of pull it against the battery. Try this and see if it works for you, It sounds like exactly the same issue.

Just for the sake of closure, I wanted to belatedly wrap up this post as best as I could.

Turned out that my problem probably had nothing to do with either cam or crank sensors. My local guy who originally thought that was the problem finally gave up after a while and shipped the Riv off to another guy who had previous experience at a GM dealership and was a lot better with diagnostics and electrical.

That guy had the car for ages, and seemed to take it apart down to the molecular level before finding something. For a while, he was concentrating on the security system, but I can't say for certain if it was ultimately that.

Maybe you all are already aware of this, but basically he said the 95 has an an undocumented ignition system circuit (not in the FSM I guess) that had a problem. Somehow this also required replacing the instrument panel, not sure if that was related or just collateral damage from testing or disassembly.

He tried to sort of explain what was wrong, but honestly, after the car being in the shop for four months (yes, four months) my eyes glazed over and I just wrote the check.

I appreciate all the help in this forum, I showed all of your suggestions to him and it wouldn't surprise me if he figured it out from your information. If I can dig up the invoice, I'll try to give you a better approximation of what he replaced.

...for your own peace of mind try to document the repair and any modifications that were made (if doing so does not make your blood boil...)

Albertj

ddonohue wrote:

Somehow this also required replacing the instrument panel, not sure if that was related or just collateral damage from testing or disassembly.

I don't like this at all. You should be able to remove the instrument cluster and still drive the car.

So I got the crankshaft position sensor replaced about a month ago and that didnt solve the issue. I took it to the shop today and the mechanic just called me back and said it's my ignition module (which i got replaced last July). Do ignition modules usually go after 1 year? I mentioned the heat sink grease and the guy said thats really for older models and not necessary for mine. He said he hooked up the shops ignition modules and my car ran like "its summertime".

I paid 350 last summer to get the ignition module replaced. What's reasonable? I saw the part on autozone.com for 130.

RivieraRyan wrote:

I paid 350 last summer to get the ignition module replaced. What's reasonable? I saw the part on autozone.com for 130.

What's reasonable? Buy the best part smart and install it yourself. You might want to use your nearby NAPA as a price benchmark. Most likely if you don't have a service manual you can get service information at your regional public library - many carry subscriptions to Alldata, EBSCO or Chilton's.

You ever check that ignition switch?

Albertj

Today I had my mechanic replace my ignition module. After he replaced it, I didn't notice much of an improvement, if any, in the cars performance. Like I said before, I had that part changed a year ago and my mechanic said it looked new. My car still idles pretty rough. I thought I might have a coolant leak because I had to refill my antifreeze twice this winter (i used green) and my low coolant light comes on and goes off periodically, but my coolant level has remained the same since I last refilled it. My mechanic pressure tested it for a leak and concluded that there was none(at least not externally). So, next he checked my fuel pressure and it was about 30. He said, normal should be between 41-47. So he thinks it may be my fuel pump or catalytic converter. He also ruled out the ignition switch. I drove the car around a little bit since the part was replaced and it has'nt died on me while driving yet, but I think its only a matter of time.

RivieraRyan wrote:

Today I had my mechanic replace my ignition module. After he replaced it, I didn't notice much of an improvement, if any, in the cars performance. Like I said before, I had that part changed a year ago and my mechanic said it looked new. My car still idles pretty rough. I thought I might have a coolant leak because I had to refill my antifreeze twice this winter (i used green) and my low coolant light comes on and goes off periodically, but my coolant level has remained the same since I last refilled it. My mechanic pressure tested it for a leak and concluded that there was none(at least not externally). So, next he checked my fuel pressure and it was about 30. He said, normal should be between 41-47. So he thinks it may be my fuel pump or catalytic converter. He also ruled out the ignition switch. I drove the car around a little bit since the part was replaced and it has'nt died on me while driving yet, but I think its only a matter of time.

Do you think you could consider taking the comments you have received so far and the invoices for last couple years repairs and go to a different mechanic for a second opinion?