ABS delete

abs has a nasty way of locking you into a set path. even with abs,relying on it,wont allways save you and your car. picking your foot off the pedal can do more than abs ever could.

not sure if any of this has been said but here we go...
i live in duluth,MN. we have harsh winters with snow/ice/rain and everything inbetween. i bought my car 3 years ago after owning 2 astro vans with no ABS, the first thing i did when i got my car was pull the ABS/traction fuse. IMO ABS is the biggest POS system they ever put on a car, in no way do i see how it makes stopping shorter...unless you have no idea how to pump your brakes and steer out of the way, which is why i believe this system was created. ABS is for the people that panic and slam the pedal to the floor and cover their face with their arms, traction control is for the people that mash the gas pedal when theyre stuck and have no idea how to work the throttle. i admit ABS can pump the brakes WAY faster than any human ever could, thats not the point, you lose all feel of what your tires are doing whether theyre locked or spinning. i use a technique i learned called "threshold braking", applying pressure incrementally to the brake pedal until the wheels lock, release, and re-do, along with steering in the slightest bit to avoid the obstacle. having traction control or ABS has never in any way helped my stop or not spin, i can do that myself.
remove your ABS fuse...done. you wont ever look back.

97 park ave wrote:

in no way do i see how it makes stopping shorter...

Just so you know, ABS has NEVER claimed to lower stopping distances that I'm aware of. It is only to maintain control and allow you to steer, and slow the car as quickly as allowed yet still maintain steerage. That's it's only purpose.

An average driver with ABS can slow a car faster and with more control than a professional driver without ABS in slippery and inconsistent surfaces, and often in dry as well. The only time ABS might fall short is on a dry track where locking up all the wheels at the same time isn't dangerous, and it's been demonstrated even professionals don't improve lap times (dozens of stops) by very much.

Read up on this stuff. There's a reason ABS is now standard equipment on most all cars. All of the techniques "good" drivers are so proud of - ABS does them faster & more effectively. ABS is near perfect threshold braking. The idea that ABS stops you slower is speculative at best, and the idea that you don't have as much control with ABS engaged is pure misinformation.

eHow.com:

"The benefits of ABS brakes are clear. For multicar crash situations, ABS brakes will help stop your car faster and reach the crash site at a much slower pace. ABS brakes will also prevent skidding if you need to steer around obstacles. ABS brakes are specifically beneficial during rough weather situations. For snow, sleet, rain and heavy sand, the ABS brakes respond faster than a typical car with standard brakes. This can prevent crashes and actually save lives."

HowStuffWorks.com:

"Anti-lock braking systems (ABS) take a lot of the challenge out of this sometimes nerve-wracking event. In fact, on slippery surfaces, even professional drivers can't stop as quickly without ABS as an average driver can with ABS. By keeping the wheels from skidding while you slow down, anti-lock brakes benefit you in two ways: You'll stop faster, and you'll be able to steer while you stop."

DriversEdGuru:

"The ABS system pumps your brakes faster and smarter than you can. The system applies pressure until it senses the wheels about to lock up. It then backs off and then applies more brake pressure as your wheels start to spin too fast. This braking and “un-braking” happens as often as 20 times per second. ABS allows you to steer the vehicle while applying extreme pressure to the brakes."

GrassRootsMotersports:

"We are big proponents of active safety measures like ABS brakes and cars that can actually swerve around an obstacle rather than flipping over and bursting into a ball of flames.

But if you listen to the bench racers in the pits and on the online forums, our friends and readers are Fangio, Nuvolari and Villeneuve all rolled into a Locost-lovin’ package: They are better on the brakes, they dance with finesse on the gas pedal and they use the steering wheel like a surgeon’s scalpel, on the track and off. Many members of the hardcore elite consider ABS brakes a waste of space, and traction control something for their grandmas.

While the purist may argue that these active safety measures are creating a breed of dumb drivers, the truth of the matter is that these devices have saved our bacon time and time again. This is not because of our driving, mind you (no, really), but rather because of things that are beyond our control, like that inattentive SUV driver in the oncoming lane. Active safety measures can really work on the street. They can even help Mr. Club Racer avoid that deer in the road or get his Ford F-350 to stop when it’s towing that oversized enclosed trailer.

As we had predicted, the electronic driver aids weren’t much of a hindrance to fast lap times, especially in the wet.

ABS was the clear winner in our tests in the dry, and we posted some very respectable lap times in the wet with this system engaged. On the dry track, the ABS-only mode was the most fun to drive and the system helped our lap times be more consistent."

deekster_caddy wrote:

97 park ave wrote:

in no way do i see how it makes stopping shorter...

Just so you know, ABS has NEVER claimed to lower stopping distances that I'm aware of. It is only to maintain control and allow you to steer, and slow the car as quickly as allowed yet still maintain steerage. That's it's only purpose.

i can still steer without ABS...thats whats happening as my foot comes off the brake. honestly it seemed harder for me to steer while on the brakes with ABS. id rather slide into someone knowing i tried and slowed down the best i could than not having any clue wtf my car is doing and if im even going to stop, not to mention the sound ABS makes isnt exactly something you want to hear.

AA wrote:

An average driver with ABS can slow a car faster and with more control than a professional driver without ABS in slippery and inconsistent surfaces, and often in dry as well. The only time ABS might fall short is on a dry track where locking up all the wheels at the same time isn't dangerous, and it's been demonstrated even professionals don't improve lap times (dozens of stops) by very much.

Read up on this stuff. There's a reason ABS is now standard equipment on most all cars. All of the techniques "good" drivers are so proud of - ABS does them faster & more effectively. ABS is near perfect threshold braking. The idea that ABS stops you slower is speculative at best, and the idea that you don't have as much control with ABS engaged is pure misinformation.

eHow.com:

"The benefits of ABS brakes are clear. For multicar crash situations, ABS brakes will help stop your car faster and reach the crash site at a much slower pace. ABS brakes will also prevent skidding if you need to steer around obstacles. ABS brakes are specifically beneficial during rough weather situations. For snow, sleet, rain and heavy sand, the ABS brakes respond faster than a typical car with standard brakes. This can prevent crashes and actually save lives."

HowStuffWorks.com:

"Anti-lock braking systems (ABS) take a lot of the challenge out of this sometimes nerve-wracking event. In fact, on slippery surfaces, even professional drivers can't stop as quickly without ABS as an average driver can with ABS. By keeping the wheels from skidding while you slow down, anti-lock brakes benefit you in two ways: You'll stop faster, and you'll be able to steer while you stop."

DriversEdGuru:

"The ABS system pumps your brakes faster and smarter than you can. The system applies pressure until it senses the wheels about to lock up. It then backs off and then applies more brake pressure as your wheels start to spin too fast. This braking and “un-braking” happens as often as 20 times per second. ABS allows you to steer the vehicle while applying extreme pressure to the brakes."

GrassRootsMotersports:

"We are big proponents of active safety measures like ABS brakes and cars that can actually swerve around an obstacle rather than flipping over and bursting into a ball of flames.

But if you listen to the bench racers in the pits and on the online forums, our friends and readers are Fangio, Nuvolari and Villeneuve all rolled into a Locost-lovin’ package: They are better on the brakes, they dance with finesse on the gas pedal and they use the steering wheel like a surgeon’s scalpel, on the track and off. Many members of the hardcore elite consider ABS brakes a waste of space, and traction control something for their grandmas.

While the purist may argue that these active safety measures are creating a breed of dumb drivers, the truth of the matter is that these devices have saved our bacon time and time again. This is not because of our driving, mind you (no, really), but rather because of things that are beyond our control, like that inattentive SUV driver in the oncoming lane. Active safety measures can really work on the street. They can even help Mr. Club Racer avoid that deer in the road or get his Ford F-350 to stop when it’s towing that oversized enclosed trailer.

As we had predicted, the electronic driver aids weren’t much of a hindrance to fast lap times, especially in the wet.

ABS was the clear winner in our tests in the dry, and we posted some very respectable lap times in the wet with this system engaged. On the dry track, the ABS-only mode was the most fun to drive and the system helped our lap times be more consistent."

i understand that those are actual proven tests, but ive counted numerous times that my huge park avenue has stopped faster than a geo half its size, whether i have my 20s on for the summer or im sliding in snow, my car stops really good without ABS. from a 50-60 roll i can stomp the brake pedal to the point of almost locking the tires and stop within a few seconds, i have never needed to use my brakes to that extent in an actual situation and have never even came close to rear ending someone, and i drive pretty fast. i use every part of my car to an advantage, like i said if you lose control theres always the e-brake and throttle to drift out of the way. im all ears for explanations to why ABS is better, but i honestly dont think ill EVER drive a car with ABS again.

robotennis61 wrote:

abs has a nasty way of locking you into a set path. even with abs,relying on it,wont allways save you and your car. picking your foot off the pedal can do more than abs ever could.

In the future, sensors in the road will be guiding us along because we're incapable of steering ourselves too! Accidents happened before ABS, and they're still happenin'. I just think people should be aloud to have the option. What about cars from the sixties with no power brakes, no air bags, no ABS, should we not be driving them around?

X2^ and why rely on a system that works by only you pushing the pedal as hard as you can? what happens when you lose a VSS or something else happens to your ABS system making it not work? all of a sudden youre just EXPECTING ABS to save your ass and it isnt there, then what...

The PCM checks ABS operation at every start up. If the check doesn't pass, ABS lamp illuminates and the system is disabled - your brakes work as if you didn't have ABS. I've had an ABS lamp illuminate on rare occasions, and have confirmed the brakes work with no ABS assistance until the next start up.

like so many things in life,this boils down to choice. you choose and you take your chances. i choose to remove abs. i like the cleaner bay,i like the weight savings,i like the adjustable proportioning valve that i can fiddle with.of course abs has proven itself. of course it can get you out of a bad situation. driving responsibly can also increase your chances too! i coulda,i shouda. when its your time to pay your dues,believe me,life will make you cough it up!

if ABS were so nondescript and unuseable why do they use them on most aircraft? you wont find a rally car without ABS or traction control im not sure about Nascar or formular one cars though i do belive thats where they were developed.

I love my ABS on the riv (when it worked) i also have it on my motor cycle there it is a god send.
Nigel

97 park ave wrote:

X2^ and why rely on a system that works by only you pushing the pedal as hard as you can? what happens when you lose a VSS or something else happens to your ABS system making it not work? all of a sudden youre just EXPECTING ABS to save your ass and it isnt there, then what...

Tyler ....

ABS can come on at any time even under very light braking... if you apply the brakes on ice ... mr average joe will press the brake and sence no slowing down so apply more pressure then in a blind panic start stamping up and down on the brake peddle.

now if he had ABS

as soon as any wheel starts to lock up even with light braking, the ABS will engage ... and belive it or not, mr average Joe will release the pressure on the brake pedle as the buzz he feels is not normal and makes him remove the pressure. He will then start to reapply the brakes.

If the ABS engages at any time ... it generaly indicates your not driving to the conditions anyway!!!!

if the ABS (or Vss) or any other failure occures to the system your back to normal braking.... loosing ABS does not me you will loose breaking.

Remember when driving rule number one....

be able to stop safely in the distance you can see......

I am a classic car owner and member of a forum that supports my old car interest.

There is bickering about the "merits"of stone age technology such as points ignition, there are people retrofitting tunable, low cost crank trigger ford DIS ignitions getting flack from those that INSIST points are adequate while those that upgrade report smooth reliable efficient operation, still the discussion goes on. I can not figure why.

This thread makes me want to put a points distributor and a carb on anyone's modern riv that feels stepping back and ignoring the technological wonder that Buick has created by snatching out fuses.

i am pro choice. it seems to me that you are trying to ram ABS down the pro choicers throat. ABS works for you,cool.

Pro choice works for me but I feel its foolish to believe you can modulate each wheels speed individually while maintaining a pre programmed 11% slip rate while possibly spilling your coffee when some idiot pulls from nowhere right in the way.

Saying that, read back, I will offer any help possible if you ask a pointed question such as the one about changing the master/booster.

Yes I also feel there are certain rare situations where I "know" I could do a better job then ABS. There has been a simple design lagging in the back of my brain on how to have the best of both worlds.

A steering wheel mounted momentary micro switch (or any other super easily accessible spot) connected to a relay to open the power circuit to the trac/ABS in a instant when I feel I "know"best.
I would eagerly entertain, help or explore with anyone willing to try.

I suppose I just have a inner issue with disabled stuff.

AA wrote:

The PCM checks ABS operation at every start up. If the check doesn't pass, ABS lamp illuminates and the system is disabled - your brakes work as if you didn't have ABS. I've had an ABS lamp illuminate on rare occasions, and have confirmed the brakes work with no ABS assistance until the next start up.

i understand this, thats not what i was saying. i understand you will know when you dont have ABS. but what happens if youre so used to it being there, that even though you know it is out you expect it to work cause youre not used to pumping your brakes, thats what im saying. yeah you may know that its not working but are you going to be prepared for it not working when you need to stop with the ABS disabled if you never learned how to drive without it?

nigelf wrote:

if ABS were so nondescript and unuseable why do they use them on most aircraft?

because those are HUGE machines that need to stop fast with very little tires, imagine locking those little tires up going almost 200mph, they would melt and blow out and more than just one person would die. im also quite sure that you dont have the same feel of the tires in a plane as you do in your personal car, not the same thing.

nigelf wrote:

97 park ave wrote:

X2^ and why rely on a system that works by only you pushing the pedal as hard as you can? what happens when you lose a VSS or something else happens to your ABS system making it not work? all of a sudden youre just EXPECTING ABS to save your ass and it isnt there, then what...

Tyler ....

ABS can come on at any time even under very light braking... if you apply the brakes on ice ... mr average joe will press the brake and sence no slowing down so apply more pressure then in a blind panic start stamping up and down on the brake peddle.

now if he had ABS

as soon as any wheel starts to lock up even with light braking, the ABS will engage ... and belive it or not, mr average Joe will release the pressure on the brake pedle as the buzz he feels is not normal and makes him remove the pressure. He will then start to reapply the brakes.

If the ABS engages at any time ... it generaly indicates your not driving to the conditions anyway!!!!

if the ABS (or Vss) or any other failure occures to the system your back to normal braking.... loosing ABS does not me you will loose breaking.

Remember when driving rule number one....

be able to stop safely in the distance you can see......

once again, i didnt say you would lose braking completely, but obviously if you dont know how to drive WITHOUT ABS how well are you going to do when your tires lock while your ABS system is malfunctioning? if you have no prior knowledge of driving with regular brakes you will be lost when your ABS system fails unexpectedly. another thing ive already mentioned: if you know how to drive your brakes arent your only way out. theres been plenty of times that i knew i wasnt going to stop in time so i ripped the e-brake and powered around the obstacle. let me tell you with all the work i have into my car, there no way im sliding into someone or the ditch, and theres not way in hell that it will be some dumbass ABS systems fault to why i hit someone. like i said, this is my 3rd vehicle without ABS, no accidents, no sliding into the ditch, just driving. dont forget the pedal next to the brake and the steering wheel in your hands too to get out of situations.

robotennis61 wrote:

i am pro choice. it seems to me that you are trying to ram ABS down the pro choicers throat. ABS works for you,cool.

exactly, nobodys going to change my mind i will out-stop any ABS car in this thread in snow or wet/dry pavement with 20s on, WITHOUT ABS. and if not able to stop in time, then ill drift around the obstacle and NOT hit anything and NOT go in the ditch, period.

Quote :

i understand this, thats not what i was saying. i understand you will know when you dont have ABS. but what happens if youre so used to it being there, that even though you know it is out you expect it to work cause youre not used to pumping your brakes, thats what im saying. yeah you may know that its not working but are you going to be prepared for it not working when you need to stop with the ABS disabled if you never learned how to drive without it?

You are forgetting the real purpose of the ABS lamp: to inform the driver that ABS needs attention. This doesn't mean to keep driving the car with a problem, it means get the car serviced right away, and if necessary fix the ABS. If the driver chooses to continue driving with the lamp on, they're taking a risk. If you drive knowing the ABS system is bad, you'd better be ready for a panic stop, and you'd better know exactly what to do - if something happens, it's not the car's fault, it's not the ABS system's fault - it's purely the driver's fault for using bad judgment.

Quote :

because those are HUGE machines that need to stop fast with very little tires, imagine locking those little tires up going almost 200mph, they would melt and blow out and more than just one person would die. im also quite sure that you dont have the same feel of the tires in a plane as you do in your personal car, not the same thing.

The application is different, but the principle is the same. ABS stops a turning wheel better an faster than a human can in nearly every case, regardless of the speed or size of the wheel. Imagine locking up 16" wheels at 75 mph... That's an equally scary thought - and your tires will have flat spots.

Quote :

obviously if you dont know how to drive WITHOUT ABS how well are you going to do when your tires lock while your ABS system is malfunctioning? if you have no prior knowledge of driving with regular brakes you will be lost when your ABS system fails unexpectedly.

As mentioned, that's what the ABS light is for. If the light comes on, you should not be in "normal" driver mode, you should be in "caution" driver mode - get to a garage and service the brakes immediately.

Quote :

theres been plenty of times that i knew i wasnt going to stop in time so i ripped the e-brake and powered around the obstacle.

So what you're telling us is that in your 3 year driving career, you've been in multiple situations where you've had unassured clear distance, and maneuvered out of each situation by manipulating a locking foot-operated parking brake in addition to throttle? Not only is this barely believable, but it's dangerous as hell for anyone, let alone someone with such little driving experience.

Quote :

nobodys going to change my mind i will out-stop any ABS car in this thread in snow or wet/dry pavement with 20s on, WITHOUT ABS. and if not able to stop in time, then ill drift around the obstacle and NOT hit anything and NOT go in the ditch, period.

Very dangerous thinking here, and also grossly inaccurate. How is it that you can out-stop any ABS-equipped car, yet professional drivers with 20 years track experience can't improve lap times with ABS disabled? How is that? And regarding your pledge to never get into an accident, never say never. The average motorist gets into some kind of accident every 10 years. That's not just stupid drivers with ABS-equipped cars, that's everyone, including you.

97 park ave wrote:

because those are HUGE machines that need to stop fast with very little tires, imagine locking those little tires up going almost 200mph... im also quite sure that you dont have the same feel of the tires in a plane as you do in your personal car.

That's the problem with these A380s and 747s, you can't drag your feet on
the runway the way you could with the old 707s...

Where do you think the technology came from........AIRCRAFT.
Prior to the inception of ABS in aircraft , they were much lighter planes than the standard car is now and they landed at very low speeds.
Once the Aircraft became large and had multiple landing gear (many wheels) then the development of ABS came at the same time.
The wheels may look small to you and me standing far off in the distance but trust me they are not and require some heavy equipment to help you remove them from the axle.
Now, thankfully smaller aircraft have ABS also because it is so inexpensive to incorporate into the design and has allowed much faster landing speeds for say corporate Type Aircraft as well.

One thing to think about, 20 inch rims will likely change the way the ABS reacts, the factory did not have those in mind when they were calibrating.

My current track car being prepared for Chump Car / 24 Hrs of Lemons is a 95 J30 Infinity . We are going out of the way to leave the ABS in place.
There will be 4 experienced but likely fatigued drivers running continuously . My thoughts are ones of overall safety and car conservation.
The drivers have combined 50+ years of dirt and asphalt racing experience and not one of us thought removing the ABS would be wise.
Make your own decisions, we have.

No pressure as I am pro choice on this matter and would help remove the stuff if you asked, I would likely be shaking my head tho.

I'll go further... 20 inch (plus) wheels are stupid as hell on all fronts!

They most likely add to the unsprung weight of the suspension and screw up the handling, they reduce the axle ratio and give lousy performance, and the extra weight and torque of the larger wheel make it harder to for the brakes to stop the car...

Unfortunately, as we saw in a recent thread, the "hip-hop crowd" knows nor cares nothing about automotive engineering realities.

Even worse 26 inch wheels I see on RWD cars around here are terrible, the things they do to the suspension to make them fit are simply scary, not even mentioning the 383ci engine!

WWOOOOWWWW, ok here we go....

AA wrote:

Quote :

i understand this, thats not what i was saying. i understand you will know when you dont have ABS. but what happens if youre so used to it being there, that even though you know it is out you expect it to work cause youre not used to pumping your brakes, thats what im saying. yeah you may know that its not working but are you going to be prepared for it not working when you need to stop with the ABS disabled if you never learned how to drive without it?

You are forgetting the real purpose of the ABS lamp: to inform the driver that ABS needs attention. This doesn't mean to keep driving the car with a problem, it means get the car serviced right away, and if necessary fix the ABS. If the driver chooses to continue driving with the lamp on, they're taking a risk. If you drive knowing the ABS system is bad, you'd better be ready for a panic stop, and you'd better know exactly what to do - if something happens, it's not the car's fault, it's not the ABS system's fault - it's purely the driver's fault for using bad judgment.

for the third or fourth time, i understand a light comes on, i understand you still have regular brakes, i understand you should get your car looked at soon if you have a MIL on. NONE of those are the point. my point is, who says the person can afford the repair RIGHT NOW, who says that someone doesnt pull out on them on the way to get it checked? you will NEVER know when something might happen, but without ever learning to stop without ABS the driver will not be prepared WHATEVER the situation. MAIN POINT: if EVERYONE knew how to drive without ABS, which they should, there wouldnt be a chance of someone not knowing how to stop fast when their "safety" mechanism decides to fail.

Quote :

because those are HUGE machines that need to stop fast with very little tires, imagine locking those little tires up going almost 200mph, they would melt and blow out and more than just one person would die. im also quite sure that you dont have the same feel of the tires in a plane as you do in your personal car, not the same thing.

The application is different, but the principle is the same. ABS stops a turning wheel better an faster than a human can in nearly every case, regardless of the speed or size of the wheel. Imagine locking up 16" wheels at 75 mph... That's an equally scary thought - and your tires will have flat spots.[/quote]
PLANE: HUGE, hundreds of passengers, extremely flammable/large amount of jet fuel, coming from the sky at 200+
CAR: even a full size truck doesnt compare to the planes weight, max capacity of 6 AT THE MOST, small amount of fuel (whens the last time you saw a car explode?), on the ground moving nowhere near 200mph or even 100mph at that.
i would rather have flat spots in my 16s (which i wouldnt cause i dont just lock them up and hold it there) than blow out a airliners tires killing hundreds of people, i would hope planes have ABS the pilots are responsible for a lot of peoples lives.

Quote :

obviously if you dont know how to drive WITHOUT ABS how well are you going to do when your tires lock while your ABS system is malfunctioning? if you have no prior knowledge of driving with regular brakes you will be lost when your ABS system fails unexpectedly.

As mentioned, that's what the ABS light is for. If the light comes on, you should not be in "normal" driver mode, you should be in "caution" driver mode - get to a garage and service the brakes immediately.[/quote]
but would you really have to be in safe driver mode if you knew how to drive without help? arent there enough slow/undecisive drivers on the road as it is?

Quote :

theres been plenty of times that i knew i wasnt going to stop in time so i ripped the e-brake and powered around the obstacle.

So what you're telling us is that in your 3 year driving career, you've been in multiple situations where you've had unassured clear distance, and maneuvered out of each situation by manipulating a locking foot-operated parking brake in addition to throttle? Not only is this barely believable, but it's dangerous as hell for anyone, let alone someone with such little driving experience.[/quote]
not 3 years, keep in mind i grew up driving dirt bikes, quads, and even driving cars before having my license, i wasnt slow with any of those either. go ahead and think i cant drive because of my age because youre dead wrong. ive been in plenty of situations with numerous vehicles AND WITNESSES as i rarely drive alone, where i either had to get the hell out of the way to not be hit, or avoided someone else. "manipulating a locking foot operated parking brake" is actually quite easy, i would assume that anyone disagreeing can also not drive a stick. i drift my car for fun in parking lots and on roads when theres snow, why wouldnt i know how to do the same thing to avoid someone? its really not that hard to click the lever down and quickly click it back to disengage the lock but still hold it compressed, that way you can still release at any time. the compressing of the lever and releasing the lock is one single motion, the second it clicks all the way down i give it a quick kick so it can move freely, and as long as you dont come all the way back up to the resting place of the lever it wont lock itself, why is that so hard to believe? also as said ive NEVER been in a wreck OR in the ditch, but i guess i just suck cause im 19 and i must have been dreaming when i saved my own ass numerous times WITH a locking foot operated parking brake AND NO ABS.

Quote :

nobodys going to change my mind i will out-stop any ABS car in this thread in snow or wet/dry pavement with 20s on, WITHOUT ABS. and if not able to stop in time, then ill drift around the obstacle and NOT hit anything and NOT go in the ditch, period.

Very dangerous thinking here, and also grossly inaccurate. How is it that you can out-stop any ABS-equipped car, yet professional drivers with 20 years track experience can't improve lap times with ABS disabled? How is that? And regarding your pledge to never get into an accident, never say never. The average motorist gets into some kind of accident every 10 years. That's not just stupid drivers with ABS-equipped cars, that's everyone, including you.[/quote]
i didnt say ANY ABS CAR, i said ill out stop anyone here that still has abs and 16s with my 20s and no abs, wet or dry. because everyone seems to think i never know wtf im talking about here but do you really think id post just to sound like an idiot? and by the way lap times have nothing to with total stopping distance, on a track you are braking hard going into a corner and if you lose traction youre screwed, obviously abs would help with lap times but what we are talking about here is on a road, with other cars trying to stop too, we are talking about total stopping distance.

Rickw wrote:

Where do you think the technology came from........AIRCRAFT.
Prior to the inception of ABS in aircraft , they were much lighter planes than the standard car is now and they landed at very low speeds.
Once the Aircraft became large and had multiple landing gear (many wheels) then the development of ABS came at the same time.
The wheels may look small to you and me standing far off in the distance but trust me they are not and require some heavy equipment to help you remove them from the axle.
Now, thankfully smaller aircraft have ABS also because it is so inexpensive to incorporate into the design and has allowed much faster landing speeds for say corporate Type Aircraft as well.

i realize the tires are big, to us, not to the plane. the size to tire size ratio of a plane is WAY more than that of ANY car, making the wheels small, making this a completely different subject, we arent comparing apples to apples here.
also keep in mind that planes have 2 sets of landing gear by the wings, and 1 up on the nose. this also makes it a completely different animal than a car, which has 4 "landing gear" points. think what would happen on that plane if just one of the rear landing gear on the plane decided to lock, it would pull the plane to one side. which brings us back to the point of theres hundreds of passengers that would be injured because airliners dont do to great in grass, the landing gear just collapses.

Eldo wrote:

I'll go further... 20 inch (plus) wheels are stupid as hell on all fronts!

They most likely add to the unsprung weight of the suspension and screw up the handling, they reduce the axle ratio and give lousy performance, and the extra weight and torque of the larger wheel make it harder to for the brakes to stop the car...

Unfortunately, as we saw in a recent thread, the "hip-hop crowd" knows nor cares nothing about automotive engineering realities.

ill start off with a nice FUCK YOU for 3 reasons.
1. im willing to bet youve NEVER had 20s, so keep talking about something you dont know because ive had plenty of complements on my wheels.
2. the only thing they add to the suspension is more feel, i can feel the road way better with my 20s on, they also improve the handling greatly with the low profile tires. keep talking out of your ass about lousy performance because i noticed no differene in acceleration except i dont spin off the line, and it pulls harder than my 16s once you get going. if you knew how to read you would also see that i said my car stops GREAT with the 20s, have had the same rotors AND pads for almost 2 years WITH MY 20s ON EVERY SUMMER and they still have life.
3. im not part of this "hip hop crowd" youre talking about dick, 20s dont mean bling mine are black. DEmonte1997 has the SAME wheels in 18s so talk all the shit you want cause i see NO problems with 20" rims, they arent chrome and i didnt get 20s because theyre 20s, they fill my wheel gap better. go ahead and think thats how i am though ill just think youre an old bag just like all the others that think all 20s are just for "hip-hop", dick.

Tyler, no reason to get upset. Imo, here's the real point - there are two possible scenarios we are talking about...

1) For the driver of a car with ABS disabled - you drive every day, thinking that when the time comes, you'll be able to threshold brake, steer around, e-brake, etc. You have NO option to use ABS, so you must rely purely on your driving skill. When the time does come, you must be able to perform exactly as planned. You can't be tired, preoccupied, anxious, distracted, ill, on your phone, or otherwise less than 100%. You are also assuming that when the event occurs, the road conditions will be clear and dry enough for you to be able to slow and steer the car as effectively as ABS can. Margin for error: near zero.

2) For the driver of ABS-equipped car - you drive every day, knowing that when the time comes, you'll be able to rely on ABS to stop your car almost as quickly as humanly possible, and keep control of it - in ALL weather conditions, and even when you're not at the top of your driving game. You know ABS is a machine, like your engine, that is consistent in its operation, so stopping fast doesn't depend on your mood, how well you feel, or what you ate for breakfast. It just works, predictably, and you know this because every time the car starts, the computer checks the ABS system and will let you know if there's a problem. If so, you can brake the car the old-fashioned way (scenario #1) until you can get it fixed. You will constantly be reminded by the bright amber ABS lamp in the dash. If you choose not to get it fixed, you can must respect all of the rules in scenario #1.

Summary: it's a lot more likely that non-ABS brakes would cause a car to lock up in a panic stop situation than for the ABS system to suddenly fail without warning on the same day they were needed to prevent an accident. It's probably a million-to-one odds that could happen.

But what about the odds of driving every single day without ABS, relying on your ability to brake like a race car driver at any sudden instant? How often will that succeed in stopping you when you need it most? 50% of the time at best? I'm guessing much less in actual practice. Nothing against you personally Tyler, but normally what people think they will do, and what they actually do in practice, they are two different things. Myself included. Just about all people say differently than what they would actually do in an emergency, or in any situation really. That's just part of being human.

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MAIN POINT: if EVERYONE knew how to drive without ABS, which they should, there wouldnt be a chance of someone not knowing how to stop fast when their "safety" mechanism decides to fail.

A long time ago, most people had an idea of how to stop without ABS, but they didn't all do a good job. Even when trained, most people's natural reaction is to slam on the brake pedal. It's very difficult to threshold brake in an instant, especially when driving different cars in different weather conditions. That's why ABS is a smart idea - it makes every car brake the same way on any road, leveling the playing field. Driver pushes on the brake pedal to stop vehicle. It's that simple.

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not 3 years, keep in mind i grew up driving dirt bikes, quads, and even driving cars before having my license, i wasnt slow with any of those either. go ahead and think i cant drive because of my age because youre dead wrong. ive been in plenty of situations with numerous vehicles AND WITNESSES as i rarely drive alone, where i either had to get the hell out of the way to not be hit, or avoided someone else. "manipulating a locking foot operated parking brake" is actually quite easy, i would assume that anyone disagreeing can also not drive a stick.

I'm not saying you can't drive, just saying you're young and don't have as much actual driving experience as the rest of us. That's not an opinion, it's a fact - that will change over time. However, the fact that you have been in so many close-call situations does suggest that you are not the best driver (yet), because one of the most important skills of driving is to avoid those situations (defensive driving). There is really no such thing as an "accident". There's almost always something you could have done to prevent it. Driving is much more than getting out of situations; it's about not getting into them.

The parking brake thing, yeah, I've used it on occasion. But it's not natural or even remotely acceptable to use on a normal basis. A hand brake is much different. The foot brake obviously wasn't intended to be used as you are describing. To properly modulate it, you must push it in, then push it again to unlatch it, in order to get any kind of "feel" required for evasive maneuvering.

And it's a lot different from a clutch, which is used constantly for shifting. The p-brake is harder to use because of its location and tiny pedal size. It's really easy to miss it with your foot, especially in a panic stop situation, where you have less than a second to get everything figured out, because then you only have 2-3 secs remaining to stop the car. Just spending the time to access the p-brake kills your reaction time compared to just hitting the brake and engaging ABS.

Btw, no one really thinks those negative things you mentioned. I think you are an above average 19 year-old driver with a good head on his shoulders. We're just discussing an issue, and we don't always agree with everything, but we should be able to discuss with a cool attitude, and learn from the information others are adding to the thread. I have learned quite a bit about ABS just from reading members' posts and other sources over the past few days.

AA wrote:

Tyler, no reason to get upset. Imo, here's the real point - there are two possible scenarios we are talking about...

im not at all upset, just a little frustrated that everytime i post an opinion on here i seem to be the only one getting jumped on by everyone just because im not agreeing, which from my understanding the point of any forum let alone this one is to learn, how is that going to happen when nobody seems to be able to see things from my point of view (other than the OP talking about disabling his ABS)

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1) For the driver of a car with ABS disabled - you drive every day, thinking that when the time comes, you'll be able to threshold brake, steer around, e-brake, etc. You have NO option to use ABS, so you must rely purely on your driving skill. When the time does come, you must be able to perform exactly as planned. You can't be tired, preoccupied, anxious, distracted, ill, on your phone, or otherwise less than 100%. You are also assuming that when the event occurs, the road conditions will be clear and dry enough for you to be able to slow and steer the car as effectively as ABS can. Margin for error: near zero.

i have been all of the above at some point when ive had to make quick decisions, you make it seem like im retarded and not able to multi task. i LOVE to drive, ive been looking for a car since i was like 10 years old, always trying to learn as much as i could and be good and driving them, and in my eyes its payed off. im not your average cocky 19 year old that thinks im the best driver, i often times deny it when im told i am. i am one of the only people i know that hasnt EVER been in an accident or ditch, it probably helps that ive never been in an accident with my dad either who also HATES ABS. i never drive my car beyond my ability, i have a certain feel for my car that i cant explain, i know exactly how much throttle i need to spin the tires whether its on snow or dry pavement. i know how much braking it takes to lock them up whether on snow or dry pavement. i know how fast i can take certain corners and i know when my car will understeer or completely break loose. i have pushed my car to the limits in different weather conditions with my different wheel/tire combos and have never been left wondering how the hell did that just happen, i know where my car needs to go and i put it there.

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Summary: it's a lot more likely that non-ABS brakes would cause a car to lock up in a panic stop situation than for the ABS system to suddenly fail without warning on the same day they were needed to prevent an accident. It's probably a million-to-one odds that could happen.

i never said that it would magically fail RIGHT when you needed it. im saying what if you wake up in the morning, go out and start your car to see your ABS light on. you figure you should take it in to get checked but you need gas or something of the like. on the way there some dumbass pulls out on you with your natural instinct being to stomp the brake because youre used to ABS being there.

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But what about the odds of driving every single day without ABS, relying on your ability to brake like a race car driver at any sudden instant? How often will that succeed in stopping you when you need it most? 50% of the time at best? I'm guessing much less in actual practice. Nothing against you personally Tyler, but normally what people think they will do, and what they actually do in practice, they are two different things. Myself included. Just about all people say differently than what they would actually do in an emergency, or in any situation really. That's just part of being human.

i drive with knowing where everyone else and what everyone else is doing. i pay VERY close attention BECAUSE i dont want my car to get messed up. i also drive always leaving myself a way out of any situation i can think of. i very rarely do other than what i say or think, but you can assume thats how i am. i am a very quick decision making person and i stick with it. i have always been good with puzzles and i find when im trying to avoid a collision its pretty much like solving a puzzle, you have to be quick and make the right decision and its never failed me yet.

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MAIN POINT: if EVERYONE knew how to drive without ABS, which they should, there wouldnt be a chance of someone not knowing how to stop fast when their "safety" mechanism decides to fail.

Quote :

A long time ago, most people had an idea of how to stop without ABS, but they didn't all do a good job. Even when trained, most people's natural reaction is to slam on the brake pedal. It's very difficult to threshold brake in an instant, especially when driving different cars in different weather conditions. That's why ABS is a smart idea - it makes every car brake the same way on any road, leveling the playing field. Driver pushes on the brake pedal to stop vehicle. It's that simple.

its that simple for me too though, knowing my car i know how much pedal i need to stop, i find myself almost never needing threshold braking even in the winter BECAUSE i know exactly what my car will do on different terrain. maybe if everyone drove without ABS with the same car for a while, they would understand what im saying when i say I KNOW MY CAR.

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not 3 years, keep in mind i grew up driving dirt bikes, quads, and even driving cars before having my license, i wasnt slow with any of those either. go ahead and think i cant drive because of my age because youre dead wrong. ive been in plenty of situations with numerous vehicles AND WITNESSES as i rarely drive alone, where i either had to get the hell out of the way to not be hit, or avoided someone else. "manipulating a locking foot operated parking brake" is actually quite easy, i would assume that anyone disagreeing can also not drive a stick.

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I'm not saying you can't drive, just saying you're young and don't have as much actual driving experience as the rest of us. That's not an opinion, it's a fact - that will change over time. However, the fact that you have been in so many close-call situations does suggest that you are not the best driver (yet), because one of the most important skills of driving is to avoid those situations (defensive driving). There is really no such thing as an "accident". There's almost always something you could have done to prevent it. Driving is much more than getting out of situations; it's about not getting into them.

in my eyes, "actual" driving experience doesnt mean anything. look at it this way, my 70+ year old grandma has easily 40 years of "actual" driving experience, compared to my 3. i could out drive my grandma in my dads 06 silverado with a 30ft camper on the back if she was still driving her cutlass ciera. even my aunts/uncles with 20-30 years "actual" experience have been in accidents since ive had my license, and once again im sure i could out drive them. this is because i grew up riding/driving other vehicles, and i was good at it. i also could back the 30ft camper alongside my garage before i even had my license, my first car was an astro van. i grew up driving bigger things so i can handle my car a lot better than most would think. EVERY "close call" ive been in was another person pulling out or drifting into my lane from another, never being my fault and i usually avoided the person before even THEY knew what was going on. but once again bash my driving ONLY because of my age when you have never ridden with me or even seen me drive at that.

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The parking brake thing, yeah, I've used it on occasion. But it's not natural or even remotely acceptable to use on a normal basis. A hand brake is much different. The foot brake obviously wasn't intended to be used as you are describing. To properly modulate it, you must push it in, then push it again to unlatch it, in order to get any kind of "feel" required for evasive maneuvering.

its not a normal basis, but after using it so many times its something i can do without even thinking. i understand a handbrake is different but only in the way that youre using your hand instead of foot, also keep in mind ive experienced both i had a grand am at one time and used that handbrake just like i use my e-brake in my buick. like i said in my last post the latching and unlatching is all one quick motion for me, takes less than a second, all at the same time as using the front brakes/throttle/steering as needed. you guys just think im talking out of my ass but i will make my point if we get some more snow, ill show you my driving and the control i DO have over my car in any situation.

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And it's a lot different from a clutch, which is used constantly for shifting. The p-brake is harder to use because of its location and tiny pedal size. It's really easy to miss it with your foot, especially in a panic stop situation, where you have less than a second to get everything figured out, because then you only have 2-3 secs remaining to stop the car. Just spending the time to access the p-brake kills your reaction time compared to just hitting the brake and engaging ABS.

its the same concept though, if you cant think what your hands and both feet are doing seperately at the same time with a clutch than you probably wont be able to do a more complicated thing like the floor e-brake because a clutch pedal doesnt lock down. i realize that it has an odd location and a small pedal, but just like everything else in your car if you use it enough you can find it in your sleep. ive NEVER went for the e-brake and missed, ever. and while engaging the e-brake a lot of times im still on the brake pumping with my right foot. im not using JUST the e-brake, like i said its e-brake/brake/throttle/steering all together.

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Btw, no one really thinks those negative things you mentioned. I think you are an above average 19 year-old driver with a good head on his shoulders. We're just discussing an issue, and we don't always agree with everything, but we should be able to discuss with a cool attitude, and learn from the information others are adding to the thread. I have learned quite a bit about ABS just from reading members' posts and other sources over the past few days.

to me it doesnt seem like that though, cause like i said at the beginning of this post it seems like everytime i post with my opinion i get my shit jumped on right away by more than one person, im not even trying to come off as a dick or like i know more than anyone here because i dont. it just seems like its not okay to have your own opinion here, anyone PRO ABS thinks im an idiot right off the bat when theres nothing wrong with ABS its just not for me, if it works for you then great im just saying my opinion. i honestly hate my age because of this reason. i fix my own cars/lawnmowers/snowblowers/dirtbikes/four wheelers/ pretty much anything around my house/ ive built computers and fixed others. i saved my parents money by fixing our fridge, and then fixed my girlfriends fridge not more than 2 weeks later, i fixed a griddle that had internal wiring issues. i can go on an on and im only 19, i havent been to college for anything yet, and i basically taught myself almost everything i know by taking things apart when they break and trying to fix them. yet still just because im 19, i dont know shit and everyone thinks automatically because of my age that i never know wtf im talking about, when theres a good chance i wont even say anything period if i dont know what im talking about. i dont know what it is about this board but every idea ive had whether it was my own or trying to help someone else, its not good enough cause im just 19. honestly if you guys dont like me and think im a dumbass tell me i wont cry like some other people, ill leave.

don't sweat it so tyler.
the real crux of the matter is that had you agreed to a Prince Albert long ago,there might be a more accepting opinion of you.
get it done buddy! you wont regret it!