Name : Lola Vallejo Age : 38 Location : Seattle, WA Joined : 2009-11-21Post Count : 11 Merit : 0
Subject: Check Engine Light Codes Sat Nov 21, 2009 5:13 pm
I have a 1995 Riviera Supercharged that is running bad. It's sputtering, kinda feeling like its missing, only when the check engine light is on. The check engine light started coming on about 2 weeks ago, at first it wasn't on all the time but now it pretty much stays on. When the check engine light is off it runs okay. I'm pretty broke right now, I can't really afford to take it into the shop, I did take it in this morning to see what codes it was reading. It came up PO112 (Intake Air Temperature Circuit Low Input) P0321 (Ignition/Distributor Engine Speed Input Circuit Range/Performance) and P1361 (Ignition Control (IC) Circuit Low Voltage). Does anyone have any idea what may be causing this? Or maybe any guess that may lead me in the right direction into figuring it out?
albertj Master
Name : Location : Finger Lakes of New York State Joined : 2007-05-31Post Count : 8688 Merit : 181
Subject: Re: Check Engine Light Codes Sat Nov 21, 2009 6:02 pm
probably the best bet is to clear the codes and check again after the light comes on again. I suspect it's a bad coil and/or wires and/or plugs but I really don't know. ALso - driving with bad plugs and wires will only get worse.
Can you replace the spark plugs and wires yourself? There are instructions on this site for that - you need to be aware that sometimes mechanics will only replace the front 3 because the back 3 are tough to get to but you can do it following the instructions on this site. Please comment.
And finally - if you are going to work on the car yourself, you ought to get the factory service manuals. They are usually pretty cheap on EBay.
Albertj
deekster_caddy Master
Name : Derek Age : 52 Location : Reading, MA Joined : 2007-01-31Post Count : 7717 Merit : 109
Subject: Re: Check Engine Light Codes Sat Nov 21, 2009 7:09 pm
You could have multiple issues. Sounds to me like you may have a dirty MAF sensor, and you should measure the voltage at your ignition module supply. Also, sounds like you may need plugs and wires.
If you can't afford to take it to the shop, you CANNOT afford to troubleshoot without finding yourself a FSM (Factory Service Manual). The FSM will be able to guide you through all of these trouble codes. They come around on Ebay for around $50-$60 IIRC, and will save you lots of hours in labor fees.
Chroniica Rookie
Name : Lola Vallejo Age : 38 Location : Seattle, WA Joined : 2009-11-21Post Count : 11 Merit : 0
Subject: Re: Check Engine Light Codes Sun Nov 22, 2009 12:58 pm
The spark plug wires look pretty new on the car so im assuming those have been recently replaced probably along with the spark plugs. I bought this car a few months ago. I tried just cleaning the MAF sensor and the engine light was off for a little bit until i turned the car off and when i turned it back on the engine light came back on and it started running bad again. Also the Traction Off and Low Coolant lights stay on. IDK if that could be related. I was thinking about pulling the MAF sensor from a junk yard and maybe trying that?
AA Administrator
Name : Aaron Age : 47 Location : C-bus, Ohio Joined : 2007-01-13Post Count : 18452 Merit : 252
Subject: Re: Check Engine Light Codes Sun Nov 22, 2009 1:09 pm
Does the sputtering happen when you are idling and cruising, when you give it gas, or when you really push the gas hard? The traction and low coolant lights are probably unrelated, but should be addressed as well. What is the mileage on the car?
'70 Ninety-Eight Holiday Coupe 455cid • 116k miles ^^^ SOLD ^^^
Chroniica Rookie
Name : Lola Vallejo Age : 38 Location : Seattle, WA Joined : 2009-11-21Post Count : 11 Merit : 0
Subject: Re: Check Engine Light Codes Sun Nov 22, 2009 1:16 pm
The mileage is 128xxx and the sputtering happens when I hit the gas to accelerate sometimes its not that bad and sometimes it feels and sounds like its running out of gas. It's the worse when I'm taking off from a red light or trying to accelerate on the on ramp to get on the freeway.
AA Administrator
Name : Aaron Age : 47 Location : C-bus, Ohio Joined : 2007-01-13Post Count : 18452 Merit : 252
Subject: Re: Check Engine Light Codes Sun Nov 22, 2009 2:12 pm
Unless you're sure the previous owner replaced the correct ignition wires with the correct ones, I might change them out for a new set of AC Delco for supercharged engines ($36 online). The non-supercharged V6 uses a different set, which is cheaper, and looks the same, but will not work correctly with supercharged engine spark voltages. I had a similar issue with sputtering at 109k miles. Wires were original, and looked totally fine, but they turned out to be the problem. My problem did not throw any engine codes, though.
While you're at it, check the plugs and replace them if they look worn, black, or otherwise used. Good plugs should look like new, except for a mild coating of light grey/white. A new set is cheap insurance for only about $10.
'70 Ninety-Eight Holiday Coupe 455cid • 116k miles ^^^ SOLD ^^^
Chroniica Rookie
Name : Lola Vallejo Age : 38 Location : Seattle, WA Joined : 2009-11-21Post Count : 11 Merit : 0
Subject: Re: Check Engine Light Codes Sun Nov 22, 2009 2:21 pm
okay ill check them out today
Snowdog Addict
Name : Timo Age : 38 Location : Finland Joined : 2008-10-04Post Count : 732 Merit : 24
Subject: Re: Check Engine Light Codes Sun Nov 22, 2009 2:49 pm
dos it act like this?
but the rpms goe still high? like ower +4000
if its so then there is missfire just in 1 cylinder what means there is a bad plug or wire.
if its even worch so there are off 2 cylinders that could mean that the coil is bad(has a crack in it). but check ofcorce if the 2 cylinders are bouth under 1 coil.
'96reese Fanatic
Name : Reese Age : 42 Location : StL Joined : 2007-09-20Post Count : 259 Merit : 4
Subject: Re: Check Engine Light Codes Sun Nov 22, 2009 4:25 pm
i agree with what everyone is saying, but i would also check the ingition control module and the coils along with plugs and wires. the easiest way to check the coils is to remove both wires on each coil . one coil at a time. have someone try and start the car while you are looking at the two towers on the coil. when they try and start the car there should be electricity running to each tower on the coil. that would indicate a good coil and a good ic at those points. try this on all three coils. if its a bad coil electricity will attempt to make a connection at each tower but then will go straight down. this will of course indicate a bad coil and/or a bad ic at that point. if any coil does that before you buy a $30 coil remove the ic and have it tested for FREE at your local parts store(oreilly's and advance).
when removing the wire from the coil inspect the coil for corrosion, rust or burnt rubber. the towers should be shining silver. when replacing plugs and/or wires you should coat the coil with lithium grease to prevent contamination and the tips of the plugs that make connection with the plug wires. you should also use a coat of antisieze around the threads of the spark plug, and always doulde check the gap. i think our cars are .060'. some plugs will be over gap so you will have to have the correct sark plug gapper to bend it back down. good luck
deekster_caddy Master
Name : Derek Age : 52 Location : Reading, MA Joined : 2007-01-31Post Count : 7717 Merit : 109
Subject: Re: Check Engine Light Codes Sun Nov 22, 2009 8:09 pm
Confirm that the wires are hooked up in the right order while you are checking things out!!
Ironclad-454 Enthusiast
Name : Nate Age : 41 Location : Oklahoma Joined : 2008-11-22Post Count : 162 Merit : 9
Subject: Re: Check Engine Light Codes Sun Nov 22, 2009 8:29 pm
'96reese wrote:
you should coat the coil with lithium grease to prevent contamination and the tips of the plugs that make connection with the plug wires.
Don't use lithium grease on electrical connections, bad idea. You need to use Dielectric grease, its intended to be used on electrical connections.It should not be put on the connection itself as its nonconductive, but you can use it as a lubricant for rubber seals on electrical connections like sparkplug boots. It also acts as a sealant for the rubber boot allowing for a better seal.
Chroniica Rookie
Name : Lola Vallejo Age : 38 Location : Seattle, WA Joined : 2009-11-21Post Count : 11 Merit : 0
snowdog no it doesnt do that like in the video - that would terrify me and i probably wouldnt drive it - the rpms still stay pretty low... i didnt have time to check the car out yesterday cause it was raining and cold and i couldnt find anyone to help me out. surprisingly though it was running kinda decent even with the check engine light on, only occasionally it would start acting up like after being on the freeway for over an hour or going fast up a hill. im really limited on what i can. :-( i really just want it to run good all the time i wish i had a man to help me with this.
albertj Master
Name : Location : Finger Lakes of New York State Joined : 2007-05-31Post Count : 8688 Merit : 181
The spark plug wires look pretty new on the car so im assuming those have been recently replaced probably along with the spark plugs. I bought this car a few months ago. I tried just cleaning the MAF sensor and the engine light was off for a little bit until i turned the car off and when i turned it back on the engine light came back on and it started running bad again. Also the Traction Off and Low Coolant lights stay on. IDK if that could be related. I was thinking about pulling the MAF sensor from a junk yard and maybe trying that?
Wires look new... Bad Assumption. Look along the printing on the wires to ss if you can find a date code.
Also - the SC Riv ignition is high energy, so to speak, but not marked as such. If someone put on a set of wires for the non-SC Riv, they will fit but they will fail fast - would not surprise me if someone did that then assumed something else was wrong because they would not expect the wires to fail so fast.
As for the MAF sensor, isn't there a MAF cleaner on the market? I am not aware they go bad so much as they get dirty.
Albertj
Chroniica Rookie
Name : Lola Vallejo Age : 38 Location : Seattle, WA Joined : 2009-11-21Post Count : 11 Merit : 0
Cleaned the MAF sensor and it didnt work, that one error code i got PO112 (Intake Air Temperature Circuit Low Input) http://www.helpforcars.net/obd_codes/codes.php?code=P0112 made me think maybe it was the MAF but I am probably completely off since im a chick.
i would think if it was the wires it would throw up some different codes
Rickw Guru
Name : Rick Location : Lancaster, MA Joined : 2008-09-13Post Count : 6282 Merit : 119
Has anyone removed the airbox cover (where your air filter is located) and left the connector to your Intake Air Sensor disconnected. The Intake Air Sensor is mounted into the airbox, if it is left disconnected while you run the engine you will get this code. You should not get a poor running engine from it, but who knows. Stranger things have been known to happen!!!!
Chroniica Rookie
Name : Lola Vallejo Age : 38 Location : Seattle, WA Joined : 2009-11-21Post Count : 11 Merit : 0
What if there is no air sensor even there? What will the car do? I thought when I was checking the air filter I seen a place where a sensor might go but it was empty? Even if it is missing I dont think that would be it because the car ran fine for months without the missing part.
AA Administrator
Name : Aaron Age : 47 Location : C-bus, Ohio Joined : 2007-01-13Post Count : 18452 Merit : 252
If the intake air sensor is missing, the car will run, but not at its best. On some engines (like my '98) the air conditioning will not turn on when the intake air sensor is disconnected.
It may not be causing all of your problems, but eventually I'd get it fixed.
Can you find the loose wiring harness somewhere around the air box area or pulled back and tucked out of sight maybe.? It is a 2 wire harness with a weather pack connector on the end. The replacement Intake Air Sensor is available from NAPA and other auto parts stores. I bought a replacement from NAPA some time ago. If you need a P/N for it I probably can find the receipt, not 100% sure, but it would be better to go in with the P/N so you get the right part. I remember when I asked for one they brought out the wrong part and couldn't produce the correct one until I showed them the original. Since you don't have one and don't know what it should look like it would be better to have their P/N handy. Or you can always get used from a junk yard as well. BTW, it turned out there was nothing wrong with mine after all. I measured the resistance of it incorrectly and thought it was bad. I don't know if I still have the good used one or not. If so, i can ship to you. But it would obviously be easier and probably cost the same to buy one, I can't remember how much it cost though. I'll look in my storage unit tomorrow for you and see what i can find.
Last edited by Rickw on Tue Nov 24, 2009 6:41 pm; edited 1 time in total
albertj Master
Name : Location : Finger Lakes of New York State Joined : 2007-05-31Post Count : 8688 Merit : 181
What if there is no air sensor even there? What will the car do? I thought when I was checking the air filter I seen a place where a sensor might go but it was empty? Even if it is missing I dont think that would be it because the car ran fine for months without the missing part.
It may be someone modified the engine to put a resostor of the right value in place of the sensor. Or it may be hanging on the wiring harness somewhere. Maybe you want to take a cell phone or digital camera and post some pics - if you can't find it we can probably help you figure out what's up -- if we can see what's under that hood.
You're better off with it than without it.
Albertj
Rickw Guru
Name : Rick Location : Lancaster, MA Joined : 2008-09-13Post Count : 6282 Merit : 119
I have a 1995 Riviera Supercharged that is running bad. It's sputtering, kinda feeling like its missing, only when the check engine light is on. The check engine light started coming on about 2 weeks ago, at first it wasn't on all the time but now it pretty much stays on. When the check engine light is off it runs okay. I'm pretty broke right now, I can't really afford to take it into the shop, I did take it in this morning to see what codes it was reading. It came up PO112 (Intake Air Temperature Circuit Low Input) P0321 (Ignition/Distributor Engine Speed Input Circuit Range/Performance) and P1361 (Ignition Control (IC) Circuit Low Voltage). Does anyone have any idea what may be causing this? Or maybe any guess that may lead me in the right direction into figuring it out?
Coming back to your original post. The P0112 can be cleared once you restore the IAT sensor. For the P0321 and P1361, these are related to your ignition system. Specifically need to check the electrical connections and grounds to the coil packs and ICU (Ignition Control Unit). The 3 coils are on the passenger side of the engine and are screwed down to a plate, that is the ICU. Remove the 2 screws that hold each coil down and lift the coil up, check the electrical connections on the underside of the coils and the top of the ICU. Clean all exposed surface with some sandpaper (120 grit will work.) You don't need to pull the spark plug wires out to do this and you don't want to unless you can properly mark each wire as to where they belong. After you have removed all 6 screws and 3 coils and set them aside, you will be looking at the top of the ICU. This surface is known to get corroded.(Especially in damp climates such as Seattle) clean this surface with sand paper and wipe clean for now. Attached with one bolt to the front of the ICU is the main wiring harness for the ICU, you want to remove this connector and visually check for any corroded and / or damaged pins. Clean with Electrical Contact Cleaner. Cleaner comes in an aerosol can and is available at the auto parts store. Now look for (1) one Black wire that is coming from the ICU and attached to a stud on the engine. This is a critical ground wire that must be inspected and make sure it isn't broken and that where it connects to the engine is a good clean connection. Remove the nut holding it on to the engine stud with a 13 mm or 15mm (IIRC) socket and ratchet. Clean this terminal end with sandpaper as well. By now you will have lifted the ICU up to look at the ground, now you need to turn it over and clean the bottom of all corrosion with sandpaper as well. When you go to the auto parts store for electrical contact cleaner you also want to get a tube of Silicone Dielectric Grease. Apply a thin layer to the bottom of ICU and put ICU and it's ground wire back in place. Apply Dielectric, thin coat, to top of ICU and the electrical tabs for the coil packs. Make sure the mating connectors on the bottom of coil packs are clean of any corrosion and apply a small amount of Dielectric to them and remount each coil carefully to the ICU and put the six screws back in and tighten gently. These don't require a lot of torque to hold them down. Use your better judgment as I assume you don't have a torque wrench to measure the tightening force. Now carefully align and install the main wiring harness connector to the front of the ICU, you should use some Dielectric grease on all the electrical pins in the connector itself. This will help keep moisture and corrosion out while not interfering with the electrical contacts. Now remove one spark plug wire at a time from a coil and inspect the condition of the contacts on the wire itself, clean it with some sandpaper and spray clean after with Contact Cleaner, roll up a piece of sandpaper into a small tube shape to fit into the tower of the coil pack and rotate in there to clean any corrosion then spray and blow dry cavity. Apply some Dielectric to the metal end of the spark plug wire and re-install into the coil. Repeat for the remaining 5 wires. If you should find any of them severely corroded you will want to replace the complete wire set very soon as this will cause an on-going problem. This also applies to each coil pack as well. If you should find the connection inside the tower to be heavily corroded then you will want to replace that coil. The above procedures are the first step needed to rule out the very real possibility of bad, dirty and corroded connections in an area known for corrosion. Any one or all of these area's you have just cleaned and lubed can cause the poor running conditions and set the check engine light and the codes mentioned. Again this is the first but necessary step before possibly having to move on to the next part of troubleshooting. Although, as I said this a known problem area and may be your whole problem. Personally, because i don't know the history of the spark plug wires i would take this opportunity to change them out one at a time without confusing the order that they go on. If you are capable of doing this job Good Luck and report back what you find.
Chroniica Rookie
Name : Lola Vallejo Age : 38 Location : Seattle, WA Joined : 2009-11-21Post Count : 11 Merit : 0
oh boy, this weekend or even maybe thanksgiving im going to go over all these suggestions and check everything, ill also post lots pics up here. (as long as someone shows me how) and we are gonna figure this crap out. u men are awesome.
Rickw Guru
Name : Rick Location : Lancaster, MA Joined : 2008-09-13Post Count : 6282 Merit : 119
oh boy, this weekend or even maybe thanksgiving im going to go over all these suggestions and check everything, ill also post lots pics up here. (as long as someone shows me how) and we are gonna figure this crap out. u men are awesome.
I'll be around for the holiday to help if you need it. Don't forget to pick up some Electrical Contact Cleaner and Dielectric grease before the holiday. And some fine grit sandpaper.
Chroniica Rookie
Name : Lola Vallejo Age : 38 Location : Seattle, WA Joined : 2009-11-21Post Count : 11 Merit : 0