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 Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION

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duckstu
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1998 Riv
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albertj
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PostSubject: Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION   Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION EmptyTue Dec 08, 2009 4:37 pm

Last week, the 'service engine soon' light on my Riv came on. I just changed computers (new laptop) and have not reinstalled my scanner (CarCode) yet - so I took it to the dealer. Dealer reads codes, gets the code for 'slow leak - evap' and hunts around for the cause. Turns out the cause was that over the years, crud had accumulated on the steel end of the fuel filler neck and it finally rusted thru. Most of the filler, except the first couple inches sticking through the fender, is plastic. Dirt and mud can accumulate on the steel part if you don't rinse it off (who knew?!? you have to hose up under the fender or use an automatic car wash and hope the underbody rinse spray gets it).

The Riviera fuel filler tube (fuel filler neck) was discontinued last year. However, the tube for the 1999 - 2005 Buick Park Avenue (C-body) fits just fine if you take off short length of plastic (the tank end of the neck) before installation. When you take the old filler tube out. put 'em side by side--and the place to trim the new one to match the old one will be obvious. You will also need a new fuel cap, unless you replaced yours with a Delco cap recently - the new cap fits the old neck but the old cap won't fit the new neck.

Albertj

PS - catch this one and do it yourself it you can. The filler neck alone is almost 200.00 at dealer retail -- and the labor involves only unclamping and sliding the old one out and the new one in. Getting the neck and cap from gmpartsdirect or monsterpartsonline has to be cheaper.


Last edited by albertj on Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:50 pm; edited 3 times in total
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robotennis61
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PostSubject: Re: Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION   Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION EmptyTue Dec 08, 2009 4:41 pm

thats some good info albert. kinda makes ya wanna go out and buy a fuel cell with all the trimmings. i bet thats the way many of us will go, down the road....
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1998 Riv
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PostSubject: Re: Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION   Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION EmptyTue Dec 08, 2009 5:34 pm

I don't suppose you have the PA part numbers for this?
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1998 Riv
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PostSubject: Re: Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION   Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION EmptyTue Dec 08, 2009 5:39 pm

When you look at the fuel filler neck on RockAuto, they show you some connectors instead. I looked at several year/model combos for PA and Riv, and it did it every time.
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PostSubject: Re: Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION   Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION EmptyTue Dec 08, 2009 7:07 pm

1998 Riv wrote:
When you look at the fuel filler neck on RockAuto, they show you some connectors instead. I looked at several year/model combos for PA and Riv, and it did it every time.

Which is why I did not put RockAuto in my post, I put in GMPD and Monster.

PN for the mystery filler pipe: 25727011
PN for new fuel cap in suck-my-wallet-black-with-cryptic-graphics: 19207873

I took these numbers off the work order. The numbers show up and price well in GMPD and Monster; however, when looking up the parts using their electronic catalogs I can't find them. I would not sweat it though; there are a number of repair parts in GM's OEM catalog that do not show up as such in the Trademotion catalog lookup. Which Is Why We Post Them Here When We Find Them, natch.

I would have saved almost $200 doing this myself. On the other hand, it was done right, done quick, and I would never have figured out the filler neck thing. I'd be sitting around waiting for a filler tube pull from a dismantler - which is not a bad thing, it's just that I needed it back on the road *now*. Makes me wonder, though, if there are "universal" filler necks and pipes for cars other than race cars?

Albertj
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ibmoses
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PostSubject: Re: Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION   Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION EmptyTue Dec 08, 2009 10:22 pm

Thanks for taking the time to post this info and the part #' s.

Bert santa
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1998 Riv
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PostSubject: Re: Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION   Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION EmptyTue Dec 08, 2009 10:29 pm

Monster actually does show a fill pipe and cap for 98 and 99 Rivieras. Plus a "seal" for another $86. The PA listing is similar pricing, but shows a cheap grommet but no seal. Hmm.
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PostSubject: Re: Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION   Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION EmptyTue Dec 08, 2009 10:44 pm

1998 Riv wrote:
Monster actually does show a fill pipe and cap for 98 and 99 Rivieras. Plus a "seal" for another $86. The PA listing is similar pricing, but shows a cheap grommet but no seal. Hmm.

I've had a few instances where Monster shows the parts because TradeMotion has it listed, but it's not available any more. Take our drivers side heated tinting mirrors as an example... They will process the order, then come back later and cancel it, stating that it's unavailable.
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PostSubject: Re: Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION   Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION EmptyTue Dec 08, 2009 11:30 pm

Albert, just to be clear, this was the fender end of the system, where the fill-pipe restrictor and the little flapper are?
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1998 Riv
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PostSubject: Re: Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION   Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION EmptyWed Dec 09, 2009 7:52 am

Mark, that's exactly how I read his description as well.

Derek, interesting that Monster works that way. Guess I won't try ordering the Riv application. Will do the PA next summer. My fill pipe is in really rough shape.
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PostSubject: Re: Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION   Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION EmptyWed Dec 09, 2009 9:26 am

Eldo wrote:
Albert, just to be clear, this was the fender end of the system, where the fill-pipe restrictor and the little flapper are?

RIght. Dealer used a smoke generator to find the leak; replaced the cap and fender-end filler pipe. I now have the newer style filler neck (it has a prominent rubber grommet surrounding the filler neck) and flapper (more plastic in the flapper -- yecch).

There is a company that makes replacement filler necks and it would not surprise me, since the PA and Riv fillers are so close, that such part would be supplied with instructions to make it work for either car. One would have to email p. trageser at Monster to find out. Also if I am not mistaken Monster has access to some NOS parts sources.

For those of you collecting OE part numbers, the *original* Riv numbers of interest for the '98-99 models would be:

ground wire (part of tank fill pipe kit) 25703573
upper pipe (part of kit) N/S
lower hose (part of kit) 25693556
worm gear s/s band clamp (qty 2 part of kit) 10041052

OE tank fill pipe kit 25680412
filler pipe grommet 25696420
fill cap 22616286

...and if your tank straps are rusty, the strap kits are 25642823, 25642824 R/L respectively. THESE ARE AVAILABLE. I plan to replace my straps, they are rough. Will probably paint with Rustoleum or some such before putting these on.

'95 - 97 model was different, I think due to different vapor recovery scheme. 25558722 is the filler neck and fender pipe kit. 25648231 is the lower hose kit with clamps. there are 4 cap options (my guess is lock or non-lock) for the sc, 22591476 [delco gt195] for the na, 22525300 [delco gt172] and for either, my guess is this is the locking one, 25060147 [delco gt139L].

Albertj
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Eldo
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PostSubject: Re: Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION   Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION EmptyWed Dec 09, 2009 6:56 pm

Thanks Albert. I never realized how lucky I am to be snow-free. Even on Donner Pass, I think CalTrans uses only sand, not salt...

You'd think if we can put a man on the moon, and make a decaffeinated coffee that everybody loves, we could find a non-corrosive deicer puzzled
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albertj
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PostSubject: Re: Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION   Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION EmptyThu Dec 10, 2009 2:19 am

Magnesium chloride is one such noncorrosive deicer, but it is *way* expsnsive. Watkins Glen (home of the famous racetrack) uses it on a (infamous) hill in town (and salts/sands the other streets).

I prefer sand & cinders in general for roadway ice management

Albertj
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PostSubject: Re: Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION   Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION EmptyThu Dec 17, 2009 11:06 am

Has anyone actually pulled their gas tank? I looked under there to pull it a while back and it looks like the exhaust and a subframe piece needs to come off first. Ugh!

Mine leaked like a sive. I finally fixed the leak at the fuel sender (fuel pump bung),..but now I have a leak on the drivers' side and the fuel pump bung area is dry.

Looking in the access pannel in the drivers' side wheel well the filler tube looks dry,..but the vent line is a bit wet looking at the very bottom where it goes in-between the body and the tank.

What else is on the top of the tank that could cause a leak?

And odly enough,...I spotted this yesterday after comming home from dinner and the tank is only half full. (see,....I'm an optamist).
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PostSubject: Re: Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION   Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION EmptyThu Dec 17, 2009 2:55 pm

duckstu wrote:
,..but now I have a leak on the drivers' side and the fuel pump bung area is dry.

Looking in the access pannel in the drivers' side wheel well the filler tube looks dry,..but the vent line is a bit wet looking at the very bottom where it goes in-between the body and the tank.

And oddly enough... the tank is only half full. (see,....I'm an optamist).

From that description, it is most likely one of the plastic lines leaking from an abrasion...

My God, you're right! I just checked the manual, and it says that the exhaust has to come out (not too bad,) AND you have to remove "the rear suspension support assembly with a transmission jack" (bad...) evil

Obviously they figured those plastic parts would never need to be removed, and the hatch in the trunk took care of the rest... My condolences
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PostSubject: Re: Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION   Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION EmptyFri Dec 18, 2009 9:35 am

Eldo wrote:

From that description, it is most likely one of the plastic lines leaking from an abrasion...

My God, you're right! I just checked the manual, and it says that the exhaust has to come out (not too bad,) AND you have to remove "the rear suspension support assembly with a transmission jack" (bad...) evil

Obviously they figured those plastic parts would never need to be removed, and the hatch in the trunk took care of the rest... My condolences

This is the kind of stuff that made me hate GM so much. It's been years since I've owned a GM product (save a 2 year H3 lease recently). It always seemed to me that GM was sticking it in and breaking it off at every turn. End rant.

Anyway,....yeah, it's either the plastic lines,...the vent tube hose, or where those 2 hoses connect to the tank. Looking in the access pannel in the fender well it looks like the filler hose and vent tube attach to a pannel that in turn attaches or is moulded into the tank.

I was hoping to find a picture of the top of the tank to see what I'm dealing with and if the leak could be there. I get a lot of fuel splash on the ground when I jump on the brakes,....which could either be big crack facing foreward,..or more likely fuel that was sitting on the top of the tank getting thrown overboard. I may have to cut a second access pannel in the trunk to see.


To pull the tank I'd have to pull the exhaust,..then the entire rear suspension. The tube that runs under the tank serves to shield the tank from the exhaust, but it also is part of the subframe,..and at the rear is the attachment points for the lateral links,...and at the front is the trailing arms.

So the rear subframe, rear trailing arms, lateral links, knuckles etc all come off as one piece. Might not be too terrible,....if I can remove the calipers and feed them to a safe location,..then with 4 bolts plus the lower shock bolts and the entire assembly should come out as one piece.

But I don't have a trans jack,...so it would be a floor jack deal. Probably easier for me to cut a new hole in the trunk floor and try to fix it that way.

I was planning to drive it 730 miles each way to visit my parents next week. Not sure if it can be trusted now. We would be comming back the 25th,..and nothing would be open that day,...so whatever I drive can't break down or burn to the ground while we're in route.
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PostSubject: Re: Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION   Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION EmptyFri Dec 18, 2009 11:21 am

I'm a little puzzled at your problem, as I thought all the Riv's fuel tanks were plastic. Damage woudl come from some other problme like road impact. Or a loose hose?!?

That said -- any way to look at the problem area? Maybe it can be cleaned and epoxied? Maybe it is not that complicated. Have to take a look.

As far as a picture of the top of the tank - if you cant' get to an FSM try looking up the part on monsterpartsonline.com -- many parts have a 'view illustration' option to click that appears at the upper right of the part listing, it's the drawings of the parts and how they fit together.

Albertj
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PostSubject: Re: Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION   Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION EmptyFri Dec 18, 2009 12:50 pm

albertj wrote:
I'm a little puzzled at your problem, as I thought all the Riv's fuel tanks were plastic. Damage woudl come from some other problme like road impact. Or a loose hose?!?

That said -- any way to look at the problem area? Maybe it can be cleaned and epoxied? Maybe it is not that complicated. Have to take a look.

Albertj

The problem areas are on the top of the tank,.....which is under the trunk floor. There is one access panel that gets you to the fuel sending unit (fuel level sender, fuel pump),...but that area (passenger side) is now fine on my car. My current leak is on the drivers' side,....and there's no access panel there. To fix that side you need to drop the entire rear suspension, subframe, exhaust etc.

The problem with the plastic tanks is they have metal mounded into them for attaching things (like the lock ring for the fuel sending unit). And GM didn't think about corrosion (because they're here in Detroit and we don't have road-salt or rain or snow or anything like that. (end rant) So anyway,...those metal tabs rust and can't be replaced. So the plastic is fine,...but the openings to the tank can no longer be sealed. And GM doesn't have replacement tanks,...so your choices are to scrap the car, install a racing fuel cell or drop the rear suspension, exhaust, tank etc and try to epoxy it. Gotta love GM.
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PostSubject: Re: Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION   Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION EmptyFri Dec 18, 2009 12:58 pm

Or get a decent used tank from Ed Morad at www.moradpartscompany.com
You probably won't see a tank for sale on his site but he keeps many Riv parts that aren't always advertised.
Try calling them @ 216-671-3736.
They are in Ohio, if your not familiar with them, and are very good to do business with and usually will haggle over price or offer free shipping during slow times, like now.
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Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION Empty
PostSubject: Re: Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION   Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION EmptyFri Dec 18, 2009 1:17 pm

I wonder what kind of issues there might be with shipping a used gas tank? Probably would have to make sure it's cleaned thoroughly and doesn't reek of gas fumes.
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PostSubject: Re: Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION   Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION EmptyFri Dec 18, 2009 1:20 pm

Good point, but I would say they have experience cleaning the tanks and shipping them.
I could be wrong though.
The other option is car-part.com and see if their is one close to you.
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PostSubject: Re: Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION   Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION EmptyFri Dec 18, 2009 1:46 pm

Rickw wrote:
Or get a decent used tank from Ed Morad at www.moradpartscompany.com
You probably won't see a tank for sale on his site but he keeps many Riv parts that aren't always advertised.
Try calling them @ 216-671-3736.
They are in Ohio, if your not familiar with them, and are very good to do business with and usually will haggle over price or offer free shipping during slow times, like now.

I second that. No kidding - if in fact you need a tank Morad will help you out of this jam for relatively short money.

Albertj
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PostSubject: Re: Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION   Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION EmptyFri Dec 18, 2009 2:06 pm

Rickw wrote:
Or get a decent used tank from Ed Morad at www.moradpartscompany.com
You probably won't see a tank for sale on his site but he keeps many Riv parts that aren't always advertised.
Try calling them @ 216-671-3736.

Thanks. I just checked with them again and they still don't have one. And it's a one year only tank.

But even if I found a good tank,..that only solves the easier problem. There's still the matter of dropping the exhaust, the entire rear suspension, the tank etc to even take a look.

I could plastic-weld or epoxy the one I have if I could get to the source of the leak.

I'm just going to cut out the floor of the trunk.
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PostSubject: Re: Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION   Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION EmptyFri Dec 18, 2009 2:37 pm

Good Luck.
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PostSubject: Re: Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION   Fuel filler tube discontinued - SOLUTION EmptyFri Dec 18, 2009 3:08 pm

stop
Uh, before you start hacking away at the trunk, can't you at least disconnect the fuel supply & return lines at the pump and pull them out the driver's side of the tank to see if one of them is the culprit?? Tie a good string on them beforehand, so you can pull them back into place.

Also, the guys are right about Morad. I know the '97 tanks are bigger, but God knows how many he's already crushed... It shouldn't take long before another one comes in. Or you could probably put the smaller '96+ tank in its place - the mounting places must exist...
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