Abaddon's Riv

Before my engine failed, I hate two primo tunes I wanted to test at the track. a 3.6" pulley tune with about 15* timing at WOT and a 3.4" tune with 8* @ WOT

the 3.4" felt so much better daily driving and pulled a lot harder, of course. But I had nearly twice as much timing with the 3.6"

I really wanted to run the quarter a few times with each tune and see what the differences were.
From what I understand, the 60' time is everything and I know the 3.4" would get the better time there. But everyone also says timing > boost but to not go over ~20 or you should drop pulley.

I really wish I wouldve been able to test the 2 setups and seen the results.

Abaddon wrote:

Yep. It's definitely during Converter lockup in 4th is where all that KR is coming from. It's 85* out today and more humid. I just got back from another scan after making a few minor changes.
0* KR
99.06% TP
~9400hZ MAF
6000RPMS
That's for 1st, 2nd, and part way through 3rd gear (speed limited on the road of course)
Minus the little KR blips (2* now at shift point, which is gone after 2 cells), it's all at 0*. One of the minor changes I made was set PE A/F to 12/1 instead of 12.1/1, and set PE enable to 25% TP above ~2600RPMS.

I FINALLY got the trans shift/Fuel Cutoff thing set where I want it. The shift at WOT is fuggin cool.
I ended up having to set WOT shift (1st to 2nd) at 40mph, and set the RPMS to 5800. Fuel Cutoff is set at 6200RPMS. Yes, it still takes the trans that long to make its shift even with shift time set to .01, and shift pressure at 96. I suppose putting a manual shift kit in it would help it shift faster, but that isn't an option until the new engine gets done. I guess I'm just getting my fix on tuning. I swear I've had the laptop in my car almost every day for 2 weeks.

Have you done a VE/SD tune? Is your LTFT locked in at 0?

For fun, i like to look at other peoples tunes and scans. The other day, I was looking at HPTuners forums and for the first time EVER, i saw a tune where the guy had his LTFTs locked in at 0! it was amazing! The LT and ST were so tight! within +-1 of 0! I have never seen such well tuned fuel trims before!

Mine are usually +-4or5

The only time I ever tuned VE is when my MAF went out and I had to run on the VE table anyways. The more I read, the more I am considering resetting trims, unplugging my MAF, and starting with an SD tune.

Quote :

Because I don't have to. Would you put a BIGGER pulley on a bone stock Riv just to advance the timing? No. The stock Timing Table is fine where it is. I have no needs nor desires to change the timing. Besides, if you go up in pulley size to advance timing, you'd lose boost.

Some food for thought - there used to be quite a few guys doing exactly this sort of thing on the DHP boards a few years ago. One had a GTP running a 13.9 sec 1/4 mile on a 3.8" pulley, AND seeing close to 40 MPG freeway. I think it ran on 87 octane as well. These guys were doing seemingly impossible things, because they figured out that boost wasn't the only way to make power, and advanced timing tables were a big part of the tune. Reading those posts caused me to rethink a 3.1" pulley and move back to a 3.4". The result is a more powerful engine running less boost, with better MPG.

Scott, this is your thread, and you are obviously a big boost guy. Nothing wrong with that - just want to defend the case for hotter timing. Having less boost with an M90 - while keeping big power - it can be a good thing. Could help with your KR issue, too.

AA wrote:

Scott, this is your thread, and you are obviously a big boost guy.

That a fat joke? Ha.

I get it completely. However I do love my boost. I have this engine setup exactly for how I use it...on the street. It rarely sees the freeway, and never goes on trips. I'm trying to get to 60mph as fast as I can. All of my "races" are mostly from traffic lights, or ~30mph rolls. If I can hit 60-70mph faster than the guy next to me, haha for him (or the occasional her). I race cars all the time that I have no business being in front of, but they never find that out. That's the fun I have with this car.

The next one I'll go crazy with. Wait...Intercooler...more boost  

Can you give us a description of what the car is doing with your new shift points? From what I understand it sounds like you're basically making it powershift, or when you don't lift off the the gas pedal while shifting in a manual car. Wouldn't that be detrimental to the life of the tranny?

Ha, no fat jokes!

Your shift settings seem okay. Fast, firm shifts are actually easier on the trans to a point. Have you tuned the TM table? Shifts should occur in 75-150 ms depending. Physical shift kit isn't needed.

Didn't you do some adjustment to the TCC shift settings a while ago? I thought there was some screw you turned in the valve body, but I never understood exactly what it did.

On your KR issue, I wouldn't assume it's false, yet. Have you tuned your TCC lock-up tables to not lock so easily in 3rd and 4th? It's stupid how sluggish the OEM settings can make the car feel. This might help will your KR problem.

matt270avian wrote:

Can you give us a description of what the car is doing with your new shift points? From what I understand it sounds like you're basically making it powershift, or when you don't lift off the the gas pedal while shifting in a manual car. Wouldn't that be detrimental to the life of the tranny?

It's set up right now so that Fuel Cutoff, and WOT shift happens at the same time. It allows the transmission to get into gear pretty much immediately without the shift "lag". I've been playing with it for some time now. It's certainly not easy to find the right settings, that's for sure. It doesn't BANG into gear like it sounds, but it's extremely firm. It actually causes a little bit of Torque Steer when it shifts. This is ONLY at WOT, max RPMS. If you let off the throttle, it doesn't happen.

AA wrote:

Your shift settings seem okay. Fast, firm shifts are actually easier on the trans to a point. Have you tuned the TM table? Shifts should occur in 75-150 ms depending. Physical shift kit isn't needed.

Didn't you do some adjustment to the TCC shift settings a while ago? I thought there was some screw you turned in the valve body, but I never understood exactly what it did.

On your KR issue, I wouldn't assume it's false, yet. Have you tuned your TCC lock-up tables to not lock so easily in 3rd and 4th? It's stupid how sluggish the OEM settings can make the car feel. This might help will your KR problem.

TM table absolutely tuned. I have the Torque Reductions set to 0, and Engine Torque maxed at 1020. The TCC Locked Torque table was set way too high I just noticed. I had it set to 1279    I just now set it to 300, as there's absolutely no reason to have it set that high.
TCC Unlocked Torque is ramped. It starts at 600 and ramps up to 1279.
TCC will not lock up in 3rd gear, and won't until a minimum of 45mph in 4th gear. I also have the release table set to higher mph.

The solenoid I adjusted awhile back was the PWM solenoid (shift pressure). All turned in the screw for a manual boost in line pressure. I had to keep that in mind when I started tuning the trans. Even some minor settings at first made it BANG into gear.

I'm pretty sure the KR isn't false. It only happens during TCC lockup in 4th before it unlocks. I suppose I can change the release settings again. It's really the only KR I'm getting. It runs stronger than before (again TY Karma). I guess I never noticed the giant spike before.

Quote :

I also have the release table set to higher mph.

This is good. Higher MPH values mean that at a given speed, the TCC will release earlier, at a lower throttle %. This reduces load on the engine. Maybe yours could be even higher? Here's my old 4th gear release table, before I disabled TCC lock-up altogether:

00.00% = 39 MPH
06.25% = 43 MPH
12.50% = 51 MPH
18.75% = 62 MPH
25.00% = 74 MPH
31.25% = 88 MPH
37.50% = 104 MPH
43.75% = 122 MPH
50.00% = 142 MPH
56.25% = 164 MPH
62.50% = 188 MPH
68.75% = 255 MPH
75.00% = 255 MPH
81.25% = 255 MPH
87.50% = 255 MPH
93.75% = 255 MPH
100.0% = 255 MPH

Abaddon wrote:

I'm pretty sure the KR isn't false. It only happens during TCC lockup in 4th before it unlocks. I suppose I can change the release settings again. It's really the only KR I'm getting. It runs stronger than before (again TY Karma). I guess I never noticed the giant spike before.

That's a very high load area - one of the highest loads you can find at lower RPMs. Your options are
1) back off timing in just that area
2) release TCC lock earlier
3) look closer at the TAC

Remember that with good strong mods you are making more power earlier in the throttle, and nearing the point where you should leave stoich for a richer value. That's what ZZP makes that TAC thing for. What is the throttle position when you are seeing the high KR?

deekster_caddy wrote:

That's a very high load area - one of the highest loads you can find at lower RPMs. Your options are
1) back off timing in just that area
2) release TCC lock earlier
3) look closer at the TAC

Remember that with good strong mods you are making more power earlier in the throttle, and nearing the point where you should leave stoich for a richer value. That's what ZZP makes that TAC thing for. What is the throttle position when you are seeing the high KR?

Absolutely. Any of those methods, or I was thinking of changing the Boost Ramp Rate?

It happened at 58% throttle @2900 RPMS. Then again at 62% throttle @3200RPMS. Both of which were on the freeway. ~2600RPMS is cruising RPM for me (70-75mph). Both of those points are where I must've stomped on it. By 99% throttle, 6000RPMS, all KR is gone.....

Abaddon wrote:

It happened at 58% throttle @2900 RPMS. Then again at 62% throttle @3200RPMS. Both of which were on the freeway. ~2600RPMS is cruising RPM for me (70-75mph). Both of those points are where I must've stomped on it. By 99% throttle, 6000RPMS, all KR is gone.....

Okay - sounds right. Remember that the KR amount ramps down with time, so once it unlocked TC and released the load, KR went away and KR ramped back to 0. You can change the rate of reduction, it's common during tuning so you only see the KR during that specific area of the timing table and not as part of the ramp-down, but it's good to have for safety during typical (non-tuning) driving. You would want the reduction rate very fast especially if you are using an automated tool or graph comparer to adjust timing. One of the reasons I prefer to adjust tables by hand.

I never thought of changing the KR Recovery rate. That's one of those parameters that you stare at, wanting to change, but can't seem to do it because the thought of *POOF* takes over....

Maybe I'll change it today. I'm definitely going to look over the TC release table again.

Abaddon wrote:

I never thought of changing the KR Recovery rate. That's one of those parameters that you stare at, wanting to change, but can't seem to do it because the thought of *POOF* takes over....

Maybe I'll change it today. I'm definitely going to look over the TC release table again.

OMG, bro. KR decay rate variable is AWESOME. I have mine at a pretty aggressive slope and got huge gains from doing so.

You will love this. It's great for false KR. If you have real KR going on, i wouldnt go too aggressive with it.

charlieRobinson wrote:

I have mine at a pretty aggressive slope and got huge gains from doing so.

Woah, take it easy there - you shouldn't be seeing big gains from this setting - lowering it is really meant as a tuning aid more than an aggressive power making setting! If you are seeing big gains from this setting, either I hope you are joking, or you have way too much KR.

Ok, shouldnt have said 'big gainz'. But when I shift gears I sometime get a blip of KR. Stock decay rate is too slow for that nonsense, so this is where I made gainz. With a more aggressive decay rate.

I tune for 0KR so I feel pretty safe about where it's at.

I've always had KR recovery rate set to "3" in every field from 0-6400 RPM.

Installed my new-to-me rear STB today. It sure is pretty.....
Pay no attention to all my old sub wires  

I certainly did not think that a rear STB would make this much difference. The car feels super rigid, and body roll is even less than before. I took a few corners last night, and the 2 big corners on my street at work this morning. I went into them about ~5mph faster than what I know the car could handle without skidding before.....no skid. Planted. Even the tires sound different deflecting off of bumps. I like it.....

I kinda had my eye on that myself for a second. I might have to make something at some point, especially if you're sayin it makes a noticeable difference

Scott, did you fabricate that yourself? Looks nice! Can you get us pics of the mounting plates?

turtleman wrote:

I kinda had my eye on that myself for a second. I might have to make something at some point, especially if you're sayin it makes a noticeable difference

As soon as I left the shop and went down the curb to the road, I knew it was different. You know how the front end feels rigid with the Front STB, but it still feels like is kinda nose dives into a corner because the back end lifts up? Not anymore. It definitely feels more independent. Steering is more responsive...more sensitive if you will. This particular design almost feels like I added a mini-cage to the car.

charlieRobinson wrote:

Scott, did you fabricate that yourself? Looks nice! Can you get us pics of the mounting plates?

I bought it from a member. He fabricated it. It's made with ~.16" tube steel, and 1/4" mounting plates. The tolerances on it are so tight, I had to climb in the trunk and force it over the shock bolts. This thing is beautiful. Every weld is complete....no holes or gaps. No giant lumps. Seriously, seriously impressed.
I think it'd be awesome, and to his benefit monetarily, if he made more of these.

Every dimension and angle is damn near perfect. I'm not sure if it's Powder Coating or what, but it's completely coated in a thick, black something. I'm seriously impressed by this work.

a member here on this forum? I am interested in one!

Who made this fine piece of art!?

charlieRobinson wrote:

a member here on this forum? I am interested in one!

Who made this fine piece of art!?

I'll send him a PM and see if he's willing to make more.

Any update on those rear bars? Dude needs to make a dozen of them and liquidate.

kickstart this thing!

$100 + shipping each. They'll be test fitted on my car before shipment.

Ok. We aren't starting a "buy what I made" under my thread please.....