Write-Up: Radiator Replacement

Got 'er done! Took my time on this job, a few breaks throughout the day, ran some errands, etc. Started at noon and finished up around 6:30pm. I think 4 hours is enough time if you have everything ready to go.

Thanks to Abaddon for a good write-up. I pretty much did everything in the same order, mostly straightforward. Only surprise was I twisted the head off one of the front screws holding the top radiator cover while trying to remove it. Tried drilling it out and broke off my bit inside! Rather than waste hours trying to fix, I decided one screw isn't going to make much difference, so let it go. Otherwise, everything went smooth.

Thanks to deekster caddy for selling me a brand new OEM radiator unit. Identical to the original, working great so far!

Notes:

- I didn't completely remove the top cover or the bypass hose to the overflow bottle. Instead I just removed the screws, flipped it over and laid it above the front of the engine. Worked pretty well.

- Heading Abaddon's warning, I used the drain cock under the car to drain the coolant. This made things a LOT cleaner. Removing the bottom panel under the radiator was pretty simple rolling on my creeper. Didn't need to raise the car.

- At first unsure about the condition of my original hoses, I bought Gates brand upper (21361) & lower (22154) hoses from Rockauto. Turns out the originals were not cracked or leaking at all, but I used the new ones anyway. The lower hose needed 1" trimmed from the radiator side. Upper hose fits fine as-is.

- I reused the OEM spring hose clamps instead of going with new screw/band clamps. By pre-installing the clamps a couple inches inside each end, then slipping the hoses into place, the clamps can then be expanded and moved into place. I used Channellocks to expand the clamps.

- Cleaned my overflow coolant bottle with a mixture of water, soap, and pea gravel. It wasn't too bad, but it hadn't ever been cleaned. Might as well.

- Of course, new coolant is 50/50 DexCool. After seeing how clean the inside of my radiator and hoses looked, and having not changed that coolant in over 5 years, I see no reason to use anything else. Superior product with superior results.

yay! I was really worried about shipping that thing. Glad it is working well.

I still use DexCool too. For all the bad things people have said about it, the only car I know that had a major issue (turned to brownish mud) had 12 year old 140K mile coolant in it...

I'm not out of the woods it seems - have a leak. Here's the story:

Last night, after I installed the radiator, upper & lower hoses, and TOUCHED NOTHING ELSE, I filled the radiator with 50/50 coolant and ran the engine for a few minutes until the t-stat opened, then topped it off. Then filled the overflow container. I was sure I did everything right, and really didn't think to do a test drive. The car was running idle 15 minutes, no leaks.

This morning on the way to work (30 min drive), I noticed within the first half mile the sound of squealing belts. Strange because the engine wasn't even warm yet. It is very wet and rainy (flooding) here, so I figured a puddle splashed up in the bay. On the freeway I hear it again. It seemed to happen at slower speeds when accelerating or decelerating. When I arrived at work, I notice steam coming from the right side. Popped the hood and saw lots of coolant all over the belts, underside of the hood, etc. I suspected the lower radiator hose was leaking, but hard to diagnose with so much rain. It was also hard to see how much coolant was leaking out.

Leaving from work late, I notice right away power steering is weak, lights dim. squealing belts, again before it heated up. As I'm headed home, I notice the LOW COOLANT lamp comes on, so I stopped and bought a gallon of DexCool, added to the overflow tank. The rest of the way home steering and charging returned, but still I knew it was loosing coolant. The whole time I'm thinking about that lower coolant hose, and how the old OEM clamp might not be doing its job.

Got home and pulled into the garage. Dried everything under the hood with towels. Turned the engine on, inspected the lower hose with a light and mirror. I couldn't see a drop of coolant coming from the hose. I'm perplexed, because as I'm wondering what else it could be, coolant starts slinging off the accessory belt and hitting me in the face! I almost think it appears to be coming from the water pump area!

But what are the odds? Coincidence aside, is there any logical reason for the water pump (original with 236k original miles) to fail during the first few minutes of driving after a radiator swap? I do have a new water pump sitting on the shelf, waiting for this day (I bought it 5 years ago), but I almost can't accept this is happening. I'm still not sure, but shifting away from the coolant hose at this point. What scenario would cause the pump failure at this exact moment? Or is there something else that I could be overlooking?

The water pump was bad. I knew as soon as I took the belt off and rotated it by hand. Swapped in a new one and everything seems back to 100%. That's got to be the weirdest timing for the pump to fail. In hindsight, I want to think it was a result of changing the radiator or coolant, some unknown debris that migrated into the mechanics, air in the system, or the increased demand of a new, cleaner-flowing radiator - that finally killed off the pump. If it was on its last leg, it never showed any signs before yesterday.

Moral of story: always have an extra water pump on the shelf at home - you never know when you might need one at midnight on a work night, until it happens. The receipt shows the purchase from early '07!

AA wrote:

The water pump was bad. I knew as soon as I took the belt off and rotated it by hand. Swapped in a new one and everything seems back to 100%. That's got to be the weirdest timing for the pump to fail. In hindsight, I want to think it was a result of changing the radiator or coolant, some unknown debris that migrated into the mechanics, air in the system, or the increased demand of a new, cleaner-flowing radiator - that finally killed off the pump. If it was on its last leg, it never showed any signs before yesterday.

Moral of story: always have an extra water pump on the shelf at home - you never know when you might need one at midnight on a work night, until it happens. The receipt shows the purchase from early '07!

I would not dwell on the WP failure. Good news is you caught it when it was convenient to replace. On my car I replaced the WP before it completely failed, when it started making sound like marbles in a can. That sound is the impeller bopping around on the shaft. WP housing acts like a crude bell and impeller acts like a crude clapper. Hence the crude "marbles in a can" ringing sound. As designed the WP will work for a while when partially failed, if only because the coolant does not put up much of a fight to flow. If you look at where the WP is it won't take you long to figure out two things. One - they are taking advantage of coolant temperature to encourage flow. Two - the WP does not have to push a very tall column of water while working.

For those of you looking for something to read, here's a worthwhile 20 minutes - The Crankshaft Coalition Wikiarticle at the link has info about practical automotive cooling systems.


Albertj

You're right. I guess I should be happy it's done and out of the way. I took some pics and will post a write-up soon for anyone needing a reference. The shop manual's instruction is laughable.

I would guess the same cause as you - it was very near it's time, and the fresh clean coolant washed away the last remnants of sealing from that inner bearing. At least you get a nice coolant leak instead of pitching the fan through the radiator like the old days!

I'm just glad the radiator is fine. You packed it nicely, and it appeared brand new, but you never know - there could have been a mouse nest in there, lol. After suspecting the hose, I then turned to the radiator, but no leaks were found. In a way, the pump going bad and getting replaced is a big relief!

AA wrote:

You're right. I guess I should be happy it's done and out of the way. I took some pics and will post a write-up soon for anyone needing a reference. The shop manual's instruction is laughable.

I have a few pictures posted when I did mine. When my pump went, I got a very fine mist of coolant, but not enough to make the belts squeal. Mine made a grinding noise. There was no doubt about it when I removed the belt, I could grab the pulley and wobble the pump quite a bit. When I removed the pump, you could see where the impeller was starting to chew up the pump inside.

Thanks, Larry. Mine was wobbling some, but not yet grinding the inside of the pump. it was making no noises, yet leaking badly enough that I lost over a gallon of coolant within 50 miles. If you're wondering whether this much coolant loss makes the engine run hotter, yes it does! Mine was reading about 205ºF at 60 mph cruise, about 25ºF higher than normal with the 180º t-stat.

Thanks for the write up on this.

Mine went bad about 3 weeks ago... see the two splits in the black plastic?


So I did all the steps and it wasn't too bad.
The old one coming out


New one back in


Couple of things I did notice:
1: I bought a used one from a 95 Riviera and the trans cooler connections seem much stouter than my 96's... they had all metal around the connection, why mine was a stamped metal piece...much thinner
2: We do have a two piece lower hose connection type..a lot of guys ask about that

I did put the upper radiator hose on wrong at first. I had the connection to the engine part too deep on the tube and I used the clamp in the wrong spot. When it got warm it was squirting out the side of the hose against the clamp... that upper ring on the metal tube is where the hose should stop, not go around and get clamped there...bad idea You can see in the last photo above, it's too deep onto the engine...

I just replaced mine a week ago. It was leaking in the same place.

I must say, the Riv is a very easy car to work on. I've replaced the supercharger, the radiator, the oil pan, suspension parts, etc... and it's not ever been a huge hassle..

Agreed. I showed a friend of mine, who owns a MB c280, how easily it is to work on. Now he calls my Riv a "tractor", lol. Very well, if paying $200 for an oil change makes a car something special, I guess mine will be a tractor. No kidding, replacing my radiator cost less than his oil service!

Hey guys, I noticed this a.m. that I had a small plate sized dark spot in the driveway. Looking at the radiator I think it's coming from the lower tranny line...

I noticed when I installed that line it didn't seem to go in too deep before it got tight...so I decided to wrap some of that teflon wrap you see on water pipes..

I'm wondering if it's leaking past that. Is teflon affected by tranny fluid? I don't think so. And if not, I wonder if I should either take it off and tighten it good again, or double the amount of teflon tape..

Thoughts?

car is sitting in driveway until I get to it tomorrow.

Mine did the same thing. It soaked the entire front moulding with trans fluid. Solution: unscrew the trans line, clean off the fitting, reapply Tephlon (I use the liquid tube type) and re-tighten. Applied about 10% more torque the 2nd time. So far no leaks after 3 months.

Thanks AA!

It's been about 3 weeks with the new radiator and that was the first instance, so I assume it finally got past the teflon and then started leaking...

I'll remove the bottom cover and should be able to reach up and clean parts & such.

Radiator lines are flare nut fittings, NOT pipe threads. You should not use anything on the threads, a flare nut seals by pressing the tubing flare on the base/tapered part of the fitting.

okay, two sides...

so NO teflon (or at least a tape type)???

I can see how AA's doesn't leak if he used a liquid sealant...

deekster_caddy wrote:

Radiator lines are flare nut fittings, NOT pipe threads. You should not use anything on the threads, a flare nut seals by pressing the tubing flare on the base/tapered part of the fitting.

Don't to anything to flare fittings except clean them and lube them... I've had mine apart once for the aux tranny cooler and once for the POS plastic radiator tanks, and no leaks whatsoever.

(Seriously - NObody else has any trouble getting the new radiator aligned to the mounts at that sloping angle??)

Natesriv wrote:

okay, two sides...

so NO teflon (or at least a tape type)???

I can see how AA's doesn't leak if he used a liquid sealant...

With a flare nut, if the seat and flare aren't squeezed together, it can leak out by the threads, or right around the pipe/nut. There is clearance there too, and if there is a pressurized leak it can and will come out anywhere it can. It's essentially two sealing surfaces, the flared pipe to the female receiving fitting seat, and the flare nut to the back of the flare on the pipe. The threads are not tapered, and not sealable. It's possible if the fitting isn't tight enough but was somewhat tight, that fluid was leaking past the flare seat and down the threads, but the flare nut to pipe/flare part of the seal was holding. But if the base can leak, the nut will eventually leak too, so sealing the threads is only going to hide your leak until another time. The key is making sure the pipe is straight and the threads are not crossed. Personally I hate flare nuts because I tend to overtighten them and round out the nut, requiring vice grips next time it comes apart. I think the newer design with the O-ring is a massive improvement.

Okay, I got in it again yesterday and took the nut off. Cleaned the threads and the inner threads on radiator (as best I could).. I DID apply a small amount of thread sealent to the threads...this time a thin liquid instead of tape... and I then threaded it back and tightened it good...I feel any harder and I'll strip something...but I turned it pretty darn hard.

I then hosed off the spilt fluid and let it dry... Then I put a paper towel under the lower nut and went for a drive today. About 20 miles of mixed driving. Got home, looked at towel and it is wet with fluid, but not soaked.

Since that towel sat overnight, I wonder if it was just soaking up the watery/transmission fluid that was left over from the hose washing...

If it's still leaking then I'll take it off again, and NOT put anything on it, I'll clean the threads and put it back together and tighten it good again..

but besides that...what else can I do? I threads in, doesn't feel stripped but the nut doesn't go all the way in (never did I think)....

Wait a few days and see if it's actually still leaking. It may not be.

At this point, you need to think about protecting the radiator. If you over-tighten, it could damage the fittings, and that's the last thing you want to do. The way these work, when they get tight, they don't want to be tightened much more.

If we assume the new radiator fittings are in good shape (probably are), that leaves the line nut as the culprit. Imo, you can fairly easily cut the line and install a new nut and re-flare the line. That's what I'd do if you're still having a problem in 3 days time.

well SHIT!

Guys, guess what? When I bought this used replacement radiator, they plugged all the openings...INCLUDING the little overflow tube outlet.

Today my Bro-In-Law and I were looking at it...and realized that little opening was plugged, Removed the plug and all is better...

BUT...we also saw oil in the coolant...unsure if it's motor oil or tranny fluid (since that tranny fluid cooler is on the passenger side)

So....I'm unsure WTF to do... right now I see no indication that I blew a head gasket..car drives fine, no smoke or steam or bubbles in coolant. No foam on oil cap.... we're thinking the plugged outlet may have overpressurized the internals and made the tranny fluid leak out...an internal crack which is now closed since the coolant system now works right..

I'm going to drive it and check every day for leaks, bubbles, and other indicators for a gasket faiure or tranny leak


SH_T!!! I never thought to check that little tube!!

Took another look this a.m. ...a better look

Appears the entire inner surface of the radiator (at least as far as my finger can reach) is coated in a blick oily film...it's not reddish, but certainly is sludgy..not like motor oil

What could it be...motor oil? Tranny fluid?

AND WTF do I do with it now?

I know I have to drain it again, and new coolant, but it will need a major flush to get all that goo off the innards...can it even be done with a flush?

I'm not driving the Riv again until I get a new radiator...not a USED one... I think my not removing that plug I may have overpressurized it and damaged it internally...

THIS SUCKS!