Write-Up: Stabillizer (Anti-Sway) Bar Link Upgrade

AA wrote:

If you aren't going to do anything with the OEM bar, would mind cutting it in half?

Will do

Another thing, did you all use the end links that the bar came with or what did you use? I bought a set of Moogs because I wasn't planning on even getting this bar actually but as I compare them, the Moogs have a larger bolt and better fitting/sturdier hardware. In comparison, the links supplied with my Addco kit are very loosy goosy on the bolt and the washers are dinkier.


see?


I think I'm going to do something to this effect. Moog hardware with the poly link bushings. I need to either cut the Moog spacer shorter to be abou the length of the Addco supplied version or buy some from the hardware store since the poly bushings themselves and the washers are a little wider.

Btw, I wouldn't go with energy's end link bushings because they don't fit against any of these bars very nicely. The poly's supplied by Addco fit basically just like stock which is great.

Those look like the HD design offered by MOOG, #K8989 correct? They offer a standard and an HD, but only offer HD for the front oddly enough. I wasn't sure whether to go with the K8989's or K5255's and K6690's in rear (Standard design). How do you like yours?

My cost is $24CAN to do the front in HD so I think I will bite the proverbial bullet. $24 is nothing anyways.

Ok so this is what I plan to link the bar with.


Moog nuts & washers
grade 8 bolts (otherwise identical to the Moog's grade 5 bolts)
Addco poly bushings
zinc plated spacers from Ace


If for some unforeseen reason, this doesn't work out when I do the install, I can fall back on the Moogs, which is why I didn't cut those ones, but I think this will be ideal.

Btw, I weighed the Addco front bar against the FE2 front bar and the Addco is about double the weight. I got 19.5lbs for the Addco and 9.5lbs for the FE2. This is not the most accurate scale but that gives an idea of the girth of that tank of a bar.

looks pretty beefy.One thing i will warn against is this:
When i switched over to poly links the nut stripped off the bolt b/c it couldnt hold the tension of the bar with the non-giving bushings. They were not even all the way tightened when this happened either.
BUY good bolts and nuts. And make them slightly longer than OEM b/c it makes it easier to install unless your bar end sits lower than mine did.
...that is all.

Good info, Matt. It shows the harder bushings do have a real effect - stiffening the operation of the stabi-bar even more. One other thing I would watch out for... If you mount the threaded (nut) end of the link aiming up, toward the car, you must take care so that it isn't too long, or else it could make contact with the axles during a severe suspension compression or hard bump. To be on the safe side, aim the nuts down, or trim them after installation.

Mr.Riviera wrote:

When i switched over to poly links the nut stripped off the bolt b/c it couldnt hold the tension of the bar with the non-giving bushings. They were not even all the way tightened when this happened either.
BUY good bolts and nuts. And make them slightly longer than OEM b/c it makes it easier to install unless your bar end sits lower than mine did.
...that is all.

What hardware did you use when it stripped? And I presume you had to go buy new bolts and nuts that were better and that took care of it? The Moog hardware has grade 5 bolts based off the markings.

i used the hardware that came with the autozone HD kit (might have even been moog) from years ago when i replaced the oem set.

UPDATE: after more than a year and a half of trying various parts and configurations, testing on the road and on track, I've improved upon the original design in this post, which revealed some less-than-optimal attributes. The resulting product is available for sale at this link: https://rivperformance.editboard.com/t8902-fs-high-performance-sway-bar-links-w-lifetime-guarantee#138993

Thanks to Codith and others for pictures and info posted above. I think a good link set-up is important, especially if you upgrade the bar and bushings. If your links are loose, the benefits are lost!

I recently upgraded to the Energy Suspension (red poly) link bushings and washers for the front stabilizer bar link. Since I didn't have new hardware, I reused my old Moog steel bolts and nuts - these were a little rusty after a few years, but still functional.

As I was reinstalling to the OEM recommended 156 lb-in torque, I realized the bushings felt quite loose, so I upped the torque to 220 lb-in, in doing so stripping the threads on the bolts. On closer examination, I could see what was going on - the old Moog link bolts were threaded only far enough to accommodate the Moog bushings, which were thicker (and softer) than the new Energy Suspension polyurethane. The result is, the nut runs out of thread and strips out.

With the nuts on tight, the end result in using the ES red poly bushings with Moog hardware is a loose-fitting link connecting the stabilizer bar to the control arm (not good). Even with full torque applied to the nut, I could still easily turn the link bushings by hand. You can see how loose they are in these images:





Since I needed to buy new hardware anyway, I decided to follow the same direction as Codith and buy some better quality bolts, spacers, and nuts. Might as well customize the set up to get a nice, tight, strong link between the bar and the control arms. In doing so, we're going to allow the bar more tightly control the forces of body roll.

McMaster-Carr sells high quality hardware in low quantities, and after some quick searching, I ordered the following that should work with our application:

Item# 91251A645 Black-Oxide Alloy Steel Socket Head Cap Screw 3/8"-16 Thread, 5-3/4" Length, 1-1/4" Threaded - (qty 2) $6.96

Item# 92510A808 Aluminum Round Spacer 3/4" OD, 1" Length, 3/8" Screw Size - (qty 2) $9.26

Item# 93591A300 Grade 9 Oval-Top Hex Locknut 3/8" - (qty 10) $6.29

I realize this is a bit pricey compared to the available kits, but for a custom selected set-up that fits the ES red poly bushings correctly, it's worth the price. And because the hardware is beefier and better quality, you can confidently remove and reinstall several times. Here's a comparison of the new hardware vs. old Moog, and the ES poly vs. Moog bushings:



Note the difference in thickness between the Moog (black) and ES poly (red) bushings. Also note the larger dia 3/8" bolt, much larger spacers, and the grade 9 lock nuts. Most importantly, notice how much more thread we have on the new bolt. Now we can apply more torque to squeeze those bushings nice and tight on the bar. All of this works to form a very strong, durable link between the stabilizer bar and control arm to resist deformation during hard cornering. And yes, it makes a real difference, imo. Here is everything assembled:



Installing the new link set:



Torque to 200 lb-in (this is the point where the nut reaches the end of thread). The bolt head is 8mm Allen hex, nut uses 14mm (9/16") deep socket:



Here is the assembly, viewed from in front of the control arm. Note the parallelism of the bar and the control arm. Also note how the link is very normal to the two, not skewed at an angle. Bushings are seated very tight against the bar and arm:



I'm going to run this set-up for a while, hopefully try some more autocross, and inspect the parts - will report back results in a few months. I don't anticipate anything too bad will happen. I do predict hard corner handling will improve slightly.

UPDATE: after more than a year and a half of trying various parts and configurations, testing on the road and on track, I've improved upon the original design in this post, which revealed some less-than-optimal attributes. The resulting product is available for sale at this link: https://rivperformance.editboard.com/t8902-fs-high-performance-sway-bar-links-w-lifetime-guarantee#138993

Very nice job. Quality hardware and the parallelism of the sway bar to the lower control arm is perfect.

Also, nice looking new control arms.

This set-up can only help compared to what what is in there before.

Thank you for writing down the sizes of everything, now I can go to the Industrial Hardware supplier near me and get the parts ahead of time, instead of having to measure everything first. You saved me and my back some aggravation.
Thanks

Now who can possibly do the measuring of the rear's, Please.?
I notice the way mine are now the sway bar is not parallel to the control arm. I'm assuming the spacer length is incorrect.

The only way to measure is with weight on wheels and I can't get the measurements on the ground and don't have a lift available to me that supports the wheels.

Maybe one of the full time mechanics that have the necessary lift can measure for the proper spacer length to keep the bar parallel, please.

Unfortunately Back Pain has stopped me from doing even these simple jobs, so the more I know ahead of time the easier it is to do the swap or I'll pay the guy down the road to swap them for me as long as I have all the correct length spacers and bolts.
Thanks again.

Rickw wrote:

Maybe one of the full time mechanics that have the necessary lift can measure for the proper spacer length to keep the bar parallel, please.
Thanks again.

Is this a hint?

The rear factory link from a PAU F41 (which is what I used, along with the bar) already has poly bushings in them. They are also much shorter height wise. I think you'd have to "build your own" with a longer center piece to accommodate the taller bushings. I'll take pics next time it's up in the air.

Thank You.

Quote :

Thank you for writing down the sizes of everything, now I can go to the Industrial Hardware supplier near me and get the parts ahead of time, instead of having to measure everything first. You saved me and my back some aggravation.

In addition to the correct size bolts and spacers, make sure the bolt has 1-1/4" of threaded length. This is important for proper tightening/position of the links.

Also, the black oxide coating on the bolt makes it ideal for link duty. Get this if you can. According to Mevotech, supplier of aftermarket suspension parts:

"Black oxide coating provides high resistance to variable corrosion factors such as road debris and adverse road and weather conditions, ensuring prolonged life of the stabilizer link."

Btw, McMaster Carr ships very fast. I got my order within 2 days.

I may order a quantity of these parts at lower price and sell as a kit to anyone interested. The bushings come in red or black, and piecing together this kit cost me about $38. I can order a few sets at bulk rate and sell them for $30 shipped for the front set. It should be a similar cost for the rears, but haven't yet priced them.

Okay I noticed that the sway bar links were not on the car. Like the bolt has rusted and all has fallen off. There wasnt even a bushing there on the passenger side. Just hanging there doing nothing so i baught a set from energy suspension. It was the kit and I baught it for both sides. Ill post when they come in

Product ID: MOOG-K8989-Front
Product Name: Front Sway Bar End Link Kit
Quantity: 2
Unit Price: $10.53

Hopefully everything will go smoothly during the install and mostly hope it helps the cornering abilities of the car.

Well, simply replacing the links will help the handling, given that they were "missing". Although, just a urethane link mod won't really improve the handling over the stock links. The sway bars on the Riv are mush, especially the hollow rear bar. I found that a front and rear sway bar upgrade, along with a STB is what makes all the difference.

Thanks for the advice. I am fabbing up my own STB now and will be installed in the next few weeks. Ill post pics as I install it. Im having all the mounts and bars made so ill have enough STB for 6 cars. The price for all the plates to be laser cut and the car stock was cheaper than just enough to do mine

New shocks are next on my list for the rear. Im going with GR-2's

If you have extra mounts and you're willing to sell them I might be interested. I wanted to do the caddy stb for my car but the fitment was off too much for my liking. I'd love to see pics when you get it finished and if you are interested in selling the extras you can pm me.

When I had my swaybar endlinks break, I heard it happening. I was turning and going over a bump and heard a loud snap. I would then hear a loud clunk everytime I would go over a rough spot in the road. You could feel the clunk in the floor and the car didn't feel right while driving. It just felt off. I found it was broken by using a crow bar and prying the sway bar up and you could see the sway bar move up and down while the endlink stayed put. Hopefully that is your problem because it is an easy fix.

98riv wrote:

When I had my swaybar endlinks break, I heard it happening. I was turning and going over a bump and heard a loud snap. I would then hear a loud clunk everytime I would go over a rough spot in the road. You could feel the clunk in the floor and the car didn't feel right while driving. It just felt off. I found it was broken by using a crow bar and prying the sway bar up and you could see the sway bar move up and down while the endlink stayed put. Hopefully that is your problem because it is an easy fix.

This definitely works if you are lucky enough to pry the busted side. And yes it is an easy fix.

Albertj

Well, I replaced my front rotors, pads and sway bar links today. I couldn't wait for feed back on how to support things so I just jacked up both sides to do the breaks and using socket wrenches and an impact gun I disassembled the sway bar links slowly watching to see if anything was opening up as I loosened it, but everything stayed put, so I had at her.

Here are the links...

The sway bar links were not broken but the bolt was seized in the spacer.


So to loosen the bolt from the spacer I secured the spacer witha vice grip while the impact gun broke it loose from below. On the right sway bar link ( where the noise was coming from ) the angle on the bolt was so severe that the bushing had moved up and allowed the bolt to come into contact with the sway bar, so using a "C" clamp I squeezed the new bolt away from the sway bar and made sure the new bushing was properly in place. With my Dads help, I gave the wheels a good shake down and pushed on it in every direction to see if there is any play in the ball joints and tie rod ends. I must be missing something cause I couldn't find any play. I can confirm though that the ball joints are OEM as the three rivets are in place instead of the bolts, otherwise I would have replaced them too. I visually inspected tranny mounts, cradle mounts and struts but don't see any obious issue or perhaps, I am not sure what to look for. Anyway, I haven't heard the "pop" sound as of yet so I am keeping my fingers crossed that the problem is solved. Thanks for all the responses and great info guys.

OK I see better now.


Your sway bar links have been replaced before.

If the POP is gone it just means that one link loosened or was not tight enough in the first place.

I'd be sure to check the strut mounts - with wheels on like normal open the hood and bounce the car to see if the struts move too much as evidenced by the strut rod in the bushing in the mount. They are supposed to move a little but only a little.

Also it may be that when you did the brakes you tighetned the calipers so they no longer clunk, if that was the problem.

O by the way in the photo that tie rod ends looks worn out or damaged. Is it? Did you wipe it off and check? It does not look original (has a grease zerk this is not a bad thing by the way) and looks like the boot is chewed off (meaning it gets gritty inside and wears out fast - ball gets smaller then it starts to clunk in the internal seat).

Albertj

albertj wrote:

O by the way in the photo that tie rod ends looks worn out or damaged. Is it? Did you wipe it off and check? It does not look original (has a grease zerk this is not a bad thing by the way) and looks like the boot is chewed off (meaning it gets gritty inside and wears out fast - ball gets smaller then it starts to clunk in the internal seat).

Albertj

Yeah, that tie rod end did look pretty cruddy, but I cleaned it off and added grease to the boot which it accepted, so I don't think its chewed off, but it does look worse than the other side. I will keep an eye on it, thanks Albert.

I've had the links seize into the spacer too. Damn annoying. I think I used a sawzall or dremel to just cut the sucker. LOL

I could see worn out endlinks causing the pop sound when there is a weight shift on either side of the car. You don't have poly swaybar bushings, do you? If not, I'll bet the rubber OEM ones allow for that type of play on the endlinks.

In any event, I'm keeping my fingers crossed the sound is gone for good.

so AA, do you have any reaction to your new links at this point? JW

With the new 2000 bonne cradle, I just kinda test fitted the Addco bar and the links I pieced together and so far, it looks really good. There's just enough thread to get the nut on without any trouble before everything compresses. I did swap out the Moog bolts for identical ones in grade 8 (vs grade 5) just for extra insurance while tightening it all the way. I was looking at those black oxide alloy bolts but I didn't see ones that were long enough at my local Ace. I reckon this bar & link combo is strong enough that the first thing to go in a crash or something would definitely be the control arms cracking.

Wow, that looks pretty stout! I assembled mine with the shank pointing down to avoid contact with the axle, but I don't think there's any interference once weight is applied to the suspension. You should be okay.

I like the new links on mine, still holding up well. Can't really feel any difference, but I know the ES poly bushings have to be more effective with the tighter seating against the arm and sway bar. With the Moog hardware, the ES bushings were sloppy loose. I think it could mean a couple degrees of suppressed body roll. Never got a chance to test before & after with lat-G meter.

AA wrote:

Because of the increased forces exerted on the stiffer bars, you'll want to use energy suspension insulators, at least on the fronts. Also, the front links should be upgraded for the extra load (I've popped an OEM link with these bars).

I already popped an OEM end link with the stock bars. I replaced them with the HD Moog links. They have polyurethane instead of rubber.

AA wrote:

I may order a quantity of these parts at lower price and sell as a kit to anyone interested. The bushings come in red or black, and piecing together this kit cost me about $38. I can order a few sets at bulk rate and sell them for $30 shipped for the front set. It should be a similar cost for the rears, but haven't yet priced them.

Aaron,
Did you ever do this?