Very Stumbling Idle 96 supercharged Riv

Had already read your response on the other topic.
No need to blur the lines and hi-jack a thread.

First off, thanks everyone for the comments and advice, it is really helpful.

Specs: 96 riv, 3.8 supercharged, 200,000 km, just purchased trying to get ready for safety and E-test

This is where I am at the moment guys.

I took off the TB and gave it a good clean. It wasn't terribly dirty, but it still cleaned up. I put everything back together and it still idled very irratically. The RPM flutuacted as I explained in my first post. I added some injector cleaner to the gas and, went for a hour and half drive. On hard accelerations that car seems fine. It is most noticible on slow accelerations, especially below 50km/h. Half way through the drive I noticed the car was improving, but still stumbling/hesitanting as I drove. Between 80-90km/h the car shakes quite abit in the front, not sure why. By the time I got to my destination the car idle had improved, but was still not perfect. The RPM went up and down by 50 or so and the car seemed a little over fueled.

The next day I pulled some plugs, and they were fouled and wet (pretty sure orginal plugs/wires). I took off the fuel rail and pulled the injectors. Gas in the fuel rail was brownish. The gas going into the fuel rail at the quick connects on top of the supercharger was clean (I replaced the fuel filter a week before hand). I visually inspected every injector, no noticble clogs. I cleaned out the fuel rail, moving lots of brown gas and bits of particle size rust. This week I will get the injectors flow tested/cleaned and report back. They must not be clogged because it never set off a misfire code/SES.

I will wait until i get the injectors cleaned, but I am leaning in that direction. I have two new questions:

1) What, other than the injectors, would cause the plugs to be overly wet?

2) Will overly wet plugs cause any issues with the O2 sensor? As of last week it was alternating between rich/lean, very quickly which I understand it is suppose to do.

RickW what is a Crank Re-Learn procedure, (I'm new to fuel injection)? At this moment I do not plan to do it, however, I would like to know what it is.

Thanks again guys,
Rod

Hi Rod. Seems like you're making some progress!

I would have skipped the throttle body cleaning - owning my car since 24,000 miles, I've never cleaned it and now have 211,000 (338,000 km) with no problems. But at least you never have to worry about that one again.

The rust in the fuel rail is very alarming, and may explain your problem. Your injectors are almost certainly clogged. If I were you I'd have them cleaned and flow tested. In the meantime, you can buy remanufactured injectors at RockAuto for less than $30 ea. All depends on how soon you need to drive the car again. Dirty injectors would not throw a code or SES light necessarily. Once you replace the injectors/plugs, you may see a noticeable increase in power at WOT, in addition to fixing your problem.

Hard to diagnose the plugs without seeing them. If they were original at such high mileage, they could be causing a missfire in the cylinder, creating the wet & fouled electrodes. Replace with a new set and check them in 10k miles. That will tell you if things are okay. Usually you will see missfire problems under load before low RPM, but not always.

Part of me still wants to think this is a vacuum leak, based on your problem only being at low RPM. Maybe you'll get lucky and the injectors and plugs will fix it. The fresh wires are also overdue.

Best of luck; keep us posted!

Rickw wrote:

albertj wrote:

That is one thing that bugs me - the crank sensor. I admit it could be flaky but I've never seen em cause this patter of problem. With a scanner though the crank sensor output can be read and if it's flaky it'll be apparent. Like I'd mentioned before I for sure would be checking the wiring to that sensor.

Albertj

Albert, I agree with making sure all the wiring is good FIRST and there are no breaks or even partially frayed wiring from PCU through the firewall and through the engine compartment to the sensor's, but after looking at and cleaning many things on my engine and looking again with a Snap-On diagnostic tool that was capable of data steaming and more, we stumbled on the slightly erratic behavior of the CPS and because we had looked at and tested wires and connections everywhere, I bought a sensor from NAPA and replaced mine and the problem went away. I have subsequently bought one from GM to have as a spare when the NAPA one takes a dump.
But I didn't shotgun this replacement either.
Went through many hours of diag and cleaning and testing, because I had no SES light and finally watched the CPS closely and thought we saw something that was worth the expense of changing the sensor and Remember Everyone - Do a Crank Re-Learn procedure before replacing the unit, re-test and verify then replace the sensor and perform another Re-Learn Procedure.
My idle seeking went away.Yet this could have been just a dirty sensor pick-up, dirty or weak connections at the CPS,etc. You just never know once you start messing with stuff that is relatively delicate, yet robust enough to live in that environment.

That's important and makes sense.

Albertj

Well guys,

Looks like I have solved my idle issue with some help from this board. I'm 90% sure that I had an slightly dirty injectors. As i drove, the car with injector cleaner it seemed to get better, but not perfect. However, I swapped out the injectors and changed the fuel rails (looked like there could be future problems with it) and put in another used set from the yard and the car now idls fine. It alos just passed the local emissions test.

thanks for all the help.

rod

Save the set of injectors you just took off the car.

Now, when it exhibits the same or similar symptoms in the future, you can send the old dirty set out for cleaning and flow matching and be ready to do a swap for the cost of cleaning..

Right now, A reputable shop with shipping fee's back and forth will cost about $100.00 to clean and flow match 6 of them.

Worth doing every number of years. I guess it just depends on how dirty these ones become before you need to swap them.

BTW, did you also replace all your injector O-Rings. If not, you should.
Can be had at the local Auto-Parts store that stocks Fel-Pro gaskets and Injector O-Rings. The are inexpensive and worth swapping rather than chance a vacuum leak right into your cylinder's.

Good news and wish I had a spare set of Injectors. How much did you have to pay for those and the fuel rail at the junk yard.????

Congratulations on your completion, Rod!

You really got us with a new (as opposed to newBIE ) problem there... I don't think anyone here has had a "poisonous" fuel-rail assembly as you had. By any chance, do you know if this car sat for a long time without being driven? The only way I can think of to produce your very precise clean-fuel-at-the-inlet-and-brown-fuel-at-the-injectors would be to have water in the fuel and have it sit for a long time...

P.S. Since we never know when it will make a difference (ask BMD ), please fill out the Location line in your Profile, since it sounds like you're in Canada, eh? In fact, you should also at least fill out your car's basic info in the Signature line as well...

The other reason you will get that kind of corrosion in a steel feul rail or fuel line is if your using E-10 and letting the car sit with that fuel trapped in the system.

It doesn't take long for the Ethanol to cause rust either. I have watched it happen to every machine I own with a carburetor that isn't run every day. That stuff makes a mess and now they want to go to E-15 Mandatory. After so-called extensive testing they say they have found no adverse reason why they shouldn't from a technical perspective.
A political problem with the farmers is another story. But they are still going to force it done our throats.

Rickw wrote:

The other reason you will get that kind of corrosion in a steel feul rail or fuel line is if your using E-10 and letting the car sit with that fuel trapped in the system.

It doesn't take long for the Ethanol to cause rust either. I have watched it happen to every machine I own with a carburetor that isn't run every day. That stuff makes a mess and now they want to go to E-15 Mandatory. After so-called extensive testing they say they have found no adverse reason why they shouldn't from a technical perspective.
A political problem with the farmers is another story. But they are still going to force it done our throats.

It seriously causes that much damage? There used to be places around here that sold straight gas and none of this e-10 crap. They bought the gas from Canada apparently, but the government cracked down on that, so unfortunately I've been forced into using e-10 laced gas now. Not many people were happy about that.

I know there are test kits to test for the presence of ethanol. Any chance there is an additive to "remove" the ethanol from gas? I've noticed my mileage has gone down about 20 miles to tank on average since the changeover as well.

Rickw wrote:

That stuff makes a mess and now they want to go to E-15 Mandatory. After so-called extensive testing they say they have found no adverse reason why they shouldn't from a technical perspective.
A political problem with the farmers is another story. But they are still going to force it done our throats.

Actually, it's not that bad - though I readily admit that just because we're paranoid doesn't mean that they're NOT out to get us...

Here's what I found:
"As was expected, the federal EPA today granted a limited waiver to permit the sale of motor fuel with up to 15 percent ethanol (so-called E15), but limited its sale to model-year 2007-and-newer cars and light trucks. For now, E15 may not be used in older cars and trucks, or in motorcycle, marine and other off-road engines. For 30 years, the ethanol content of motor fuel has been limited to 10 percent ethanol."

Eldo wrote:

Rickw wrote:

That stuff makes a mess and now they want to go to E-15 Mandatory. After so-called extensive testing they say they have found no adverse reason why they shouldn't from a technical perspective.
A political problem with the farmers is another story. But they are still going to force it done our throats.

Actually, it's not that bad - though I readily admit that just because we're paranoid doesn't mean that they're NOT out to get us...

Here's what I found:
"As was expected, the federal EPA today granted a limited waiver to permit the sale of motor fuel with up to 15 percent ethanol (so-called E15), but limited its sale to model-year 2007-and-newer cars and light trucks. For now, E15 may not be used in older cars and trucks, or in motorcycle, marine and other off-road engines. For 30 years, the ethanol content of motor fuel has been limited to 10 percent ethanol."

OK, so what are they gonna have baby sitters at the pumps who know exactly what model year car is pulling up to stop the blonde from putting E-15 in her 2000 pink VW beetle? Some people I am aware of around here can barely decipher the difference between diesel, kerosene, premium and unleaded....

GMFreak8 wrote:

OK, so what are they gonna have baby sitters at the pumps who know exactly what model year car is pulling up to stop the blonde from putting E-15 in her 2000 pink VW beetle? Some people I am aware of around here can barely decipher the difference between diesel, kerosene, premium and unleaded....

Permission is one thing, requirement another...
As for your hypotheticals, people are supposed to read their owner's manuals and use the correct fuel right now... Just think of it as the automotive equivalent of natural selection.

Eldo wrote:

GMFreak8 wrote:

OK, so what are they gonna have baby sitters at the pumps who know exactly what model year car is pulling up to stop the blonde from putting E-15 in her 2000 pink VW beetle? Some people I am aware of around here can barely decipher the difference between diesel, kerosene, premium and unleaded....

Permission is one thing, requirement another...
As for your hypotheticals, people are supposed to read their owner's manuals and use the correct fuel right now... Just think of it as the automotive equivalent of natural selection.

Reminds me of when my sister learned to drive. Swore she knew what she was doing. First questions out of her mouth once in the drivers seat was "where's the brake and where's the turn signal knob"....

GMFreak8 wrote:

Reminds me of when my sister learned to drive. Swore she knew what she was doing. First questions out of her mouth once in the drivers seat was "where's the brake and where's the turn signal knob"....

Which gives you some idea of what we face out here with the plague of illiterate, unlicensed illegals...

Eldo wrote:

GMFreak8 wrote:

Reminds me of when my sister learned to drive. Swore she knew what she was doing. First questions out of her mouth once in the drivers seat was "where's the brake and where's the turn signal knob"....

Which gives you some idea of what we face out here with the plague of illiterate, unlicensed illegals...

I can only imagine. Not a big supporter of illegals myself...

GMFreak8 wrote:

Eldo wrote:

GMFreak8 wrote:

Reminds me of when my sister learned to drive. Swore she knew what she was doing. First questions out of her mouth once in the drivers seat was "where's the brake and where's the turn signal knob"....

Which gives you some idea of what we face out here with the plague of illiterate, unlicensed illegals...

I can only imagine. Not a big supporter of illegals myself...

Appreciate it, but trust me - you can't... Our so-called 'representatives' have been working for the foreign invaders so long, they have attitude now! Instead of being afraid of getting caught, they park wherever they want to as long as they turn on their emergency flashers - even in a lane of traffic! In the last month, I've had 3 people tell me that the illegals get pissed off if there's no one in the store/shop/etc. that speaks Spanish for them!! The hypocrisy and arrogance is just criminal - that's why I'm trying to retreat to Oregon... I've done what I can here, but until Pelosi or Feinstein or Alec Baldwin gets run down or shot by a repeat-offending illegal who's still here because of "sanctuary policy", the looney-toons will still be ceding California back to Mexico.

Eldo wrote:

GMFreak8 wrote:

Eldo wrote:

GMFreak8 wrote:

Reminds me of when my sister learned to drive. Swore she knew what she was doing. First questions out of her mouth once in the drivers seat was "where's the brake and where's the turn signal knob"....

Which gives you some idea of what we face out here with the plague of illiterate, unlicensed illegals...

I can only imagine. Not a big supporter of illegals myself...

Appreciate it, but trust me - you can't... Our so-called 'representatives' have been working for the foreign invaders so long, they have attitude now! Instead of being afraid of getting caught, they park wherever they want to as long as they turn on their emergency flashers - even in a lane of traffic! In the last month, I've had 3 people tell me that the illegals get pissed off if there's no one in the store/shop/etc. that speaks Spanish for them!! The hypocrisy and arrogance is just criminal - that's why I'm trying to retreat to Oregon... I've done what I can here, but until Pelosi or Feinstein or Alec Baldwin gets run down or shot by a repeat-offending illegal who's still here because of "sanctuary policy", the looney-toons will still be ceding California back to Mexico.

I was looking for an amen smiley but I couldn't find one. I had no idea it was that bad. I knew it was bad, but not that bad. I completely agree with you though. The spanish speaking doesn't surprise me. Up here in northern new york you can still find products in walmart that are ALL spanish. No english whatsoever. It's sickening.

You know, we're wrong though. We're just old racists who can't accept change...

Rick,

I did replace the o-rings and kept the extra injectors. I paid 25.00 for the rail and six injectors from the yard. Other yards wanted between 75-125 for the same thing.

The car had sat fro 8 months. I had known that ethonal gas could cause issues sitting, but I ddin't realize the amount of rust issues it will cause. Too bad we don't have ethonal free options.

Rod