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 P0104 - EGR low-flow code

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albertj
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albertj


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P0104 - EGR low-flow code Empty
PostSubject: P0104 - EGR low-flow code   P0104 - EGR low-flow code EmptySat Jan 07, 2012 4:30 pm

I fixed this issue on my Riv and learned a few things in the process that I wanted to share, based on my general impression of recent problem posts.

Problem was I had a P0104 code pop up quite a while ago. It's "insufficient flow." Checked the EGR valve and although it was clean (no soot buildup at the valve) it did not actuate properly (this can be checked with a Tech II) and as well the passage in the throttle body was cruddy (may have had accumulation of tar due to low flow? I don't know, I just cleaned it all out and replaced the EGR...)

So I replaced the valve and the car ran fine, no codes, for months after that, then reappeared.

Now, the '96 and later Series II SC engine has "digital EGR." The EGR valve is operated by a signal from the PCM based on sensor readings. There's a MAP sensor among them. One reason for a P0104 can be a MAP sensor gone bad. This happens, but not so often and is easily checked by checking for a sensor reading with a scan tool.

My MAP was reading - but erratically.

So I "took a dose of my own medicine" and looked in the FSM. How does this thing work? The upshot is that there is a vacuum harness connected to the supercharger bypass solenoid, the fuel pressure regulator, the MAP sensor, and a vac bleed on the manifold. It used to be GM #24507329. The harness has pre-bent nylon tubing with little flares to hold a set of rubber tees in place. Since the EGR is "Digital" and it gets its input from the MAP, I figured I'd track back from the MAP to the SC bypass and check the lines and fittings. Pulled off the engine sight shield (the gray shell with "3800 SERIES II Supercharged" on it) and started looking, from the back at the MAP sensor. The fittings were old and hardening - you know, they way they look when you know you could replace them but if you don't disturb them they will probably be OK. The nylon lines looked fine. I used a mirror to look at the manifold vac bleed nipple fitting, and felt it with my fingers. It was hardening too. At this point I am thinking I need to find some little rubber fittings, and I continue. When I got to the tee at the fuel pressure regulator - yuck.

What I found was the rubber tee in the manifold at the fuel pressure regulator was cut, the likely culprit being the spark plug wire retainer clip. Many years ago when I replaced the plug wires, I also reinstalled the OE clips that neaten and hold the wires in order as they are routed from the coil pack over top of the supercharger. What appears to have happened is that over time -- over the course of several years -- the clip had rubbed against the vacuum tee and finally had cut it. When I pulled on the tee to inspect it, it broke at the cut. So I pulled out my cellphone and called the local GM dealer's parts counter and asked if they had any of those little rubber tees. Got a junior counterperson and although he was trying he was making no real progress. After a minute or so I said, hey, I have an old parts fiche (borrowed for another project from friend who also has a Riv) and help look this thing up - a rubber tee, it might be in the "out of fiche calls" with the other shop and service parts, like spark plug wires, and gaskets. So he's looking on the computer and I'm looking on the fiche, we're not finding anything. Another minute has gone by.

Now, a rule of thumb I like to heed is that time is money - both mine and other people's. And he's at work at a parts counter that's often busy. I said tell you what, we'll make this a race. I will look on my fiche and you look on the computer and whoever finds it first, call the other one. He's already pulled up my VIN and phone number so we're off to the races. Off the phone, I look real hard on the fiche. Then I found the problem -- nomenclature that made sense only after you knew what it was.

I found the tee by trying to look up "vacuum," not finding it there, then looking up the supercharger sub-assembly, not finding it there either, then looking at the explosion pictures of the engine assembly until I found the thing. Being small, it took a while. It was under "ENGINE ASSEMBLY, MANIFOLD AND FUEL RELATED PARTS."

Clear enough.

The tee was shown as attached to the nylon tubes - uh oh - so I looked up the number and called Parts back. Asked for the clerk, got the supervisor. Told him that I'd spoken to the clerk earlier, who no doubt is now onto something else. Supervisor calls clerk, I say hold on I have the number for you - I think I do anyway - he says OK I give him the number. He says it's superseded by 24508742, and is discontinued and he can't find one at the moment, but he might find it tomorrow. So I ask, is there any chance that there might be a tee that fits in the shop supplies? He says probably, so I say I'll stop by to see if we can match the tee up (and then I'd of course pay for the shop supply and a little for their trouble).

At this point I still have a leaky vac harness that is setting false P0104s. I put a little dry gas (alcohol) on a rag, wipe the cut tee clean, then wrap it with "amalgamating tape." Amalgamating tape is a rubber tape that you stretch and wrap around stuff, and it fuses to itself. It is not adhesive, it's kind of partially cured synthetic rubber. When stretched and tightly wrapped around any surface it will become a solid mass of rubber. It can be used to seal hoses, water pipe leaks, insulate terminals, connectors, cable, and wiring. It can also be used for underground wiring, hi-voltage repair, in conjunction with, or in place of heat shrink tubing. and when you stretch it it fuses back to itself. More about it (and free sat-tv in the UK) at this LINK. So in this application, I used it to over-wrap and seal the vac fitting. It worked, although I did not know it at first.

With the fitting wrapped, I hop in the car and drive to the dealership. I stop in at the dealership and counter supervisor says it was not terribly busy so he made come calls and found a cache of the manifolds at a GM supply depot at this LINK. And quoted me a price. I order it. Not because it's cheap but because it replaces all the goofty custom-rubber-fittings-that-are-dried-out on the vacuum harness and, if I reposition the spark plug wire clip, won't fail (well, at least won't get cut) for another ~15 years.

I figure I'll try to find a vac tee cheap while I wait for the part to arrive. Hop in the car, start car - SES light's out. So I've solved the P0104 EGR problem -- sort of. Rube Goldberg would be proud (my tape job is effective but not neat) and Murphy is biding his time... I mull over going home and decide that since the AutoZone is closer than the house I'll cut my risk and go to AZ to find a vac tee.

BZZZZT. Waste of Time. After dealing with the AZ counter help (who have improved much over the past ~year by the way since they hired an ex-Marine supply room manager - he's not a yeller, rather it's that he gets how the kidployees tick and encourages them to motivate themselves to focus on what's important to customers... ) The problem at AZ is they just don't have any such part. I go to the next block, there's an old-line CarQuest franchise there. And I am thinking to myself that I should have gone there in the first place, they are *way* better at the "get me back on the road" thing. This CarQuest has fewer tools, but carries parts for my vintage tractor... anyway, I tell the counterperson what I am looking for. He looks a little puzzled. I tell him "well the car is outside" he says "let's have a look." So we go out, I flip the hood, he goes Oh and goes into the back and gets a similar vac tee. Edelman 767222. The ports are smaller than the one I had on - BUT - this may not be an issue. He opens the pack, says "put it on and see if it fits." I say OK, put it on and it fits the fuel injection pressure regulator fine. I go back in, he rings it up, I go. Turns out though that the vac harness from GM, all in, is cheaper than overhauling the harness with shop supplies (at $9.93 for a little rubber vac tee the $$ adds up real fast... and it probably cost them 99 cents... oh well, a buck for the part and ten bucks to hold it for me until I needed it...).

I got home, put a little black RTV smear on the vac lines and fuel regulator nipple, and installed it.

What I learned:

  • Hard parts for the Riviera continue to disappear; the Riv-specific ones are gone and the rest are vanishing as the last model they were in becomes ten model years old or so.

    GM is automatically transferring NOS inventory to Vintage Parts, which will help. However, if you want anything from Vintage Parts for a GM car, my understanding is you have to get it through a GM dealer. The hassle is that although the counterpeople are supposed to know how to use VP, many (probably for what they think is good reason) won't.

    If you can disassemble it without destroying it you can probably fix it instead of replace it.

    AZ still really is not the place to go for "shop supplies.' Almost anyplace else (O'Reilly, Advance, NAPA, CarQuest, Auto Value) is better.

    The cheapest way to really keep a car on the road still seems to be to buy OE parts at the best price you can get and do the work yourself, unless there is an aftermarket modification you want/need.

    Vacuum sucks.


Albertj



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Andysdorm
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P0104 - EGR low-flow code Empty
PostSubject: Re: P0104 - EGR low-flow code   P0104 - EGR low-flow code EmptySat Jan 07, 2012 7:20 pm

Thanks for the write up. I'm going to be looking even more closely into the workings of my Riv.

I too have gotten the EGR code and was told there was a leak coming from the circumfrance of the EGR pipe going into the throttle.

Dad finally helped me out by finding me a tube of high temp gasket maker. I liberally applied the orange goop around the area and pushed it into the crease with my finger(engine cold), right where I thought the leak would be able to escape. Then I waited a day and a half before testing it out. It felt pretty good but the code went off at the usual places enroute to the gym.

But the next day nothing, no code. The day after I took an alternative highway route to my GF's house and I was AMAZING! the car felt even better than my previous Riv of which I thought was a gem and inspired me to by this Riv. I did hit every stop light towards the end but there was absolutely no issue, no SES light. Same went for the ride home, a 110mile trip.

The next day however was extremely cold and I may have driven the Riv before it had time to warm up cause the light went off just down the street from my house going 20mph. And subsiquently it will go off some days and not others. It didn't today.

On that long ride to the GF, I hit a nice boost once and awhile without the light coming on. Man, I want THAT Riv back. I miss that Riv. sad
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albertj
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P0104 - EGR low-flow code Empty
PostSubject: Re: P0104 - EGR low-flow code   P0104 - EGR low-flow code EmptySat Jan 07, 2012 11:32 pm

Andysdorm wrote:
Thanks for the write up. I'm going to be looking even more closely into the workings of my Riv.

I too have gotten the EGR code and was told there was a leak coming from the circumfrance of the EGR pipe going into the throttle.

Dad finally helped me out by finding me a tube of high temp gasket maker. I liberally applied the orange goop around the area and pushed it into the crease with my finger(engine cold), right where I thought the leak would be able to escape. Then I waited a day and a half before testing it out. It felt pretty good but the code went off at the usual places enroute to the gym.

But the next day nothing, no code. The day after I took an alternative highway route to my GF's house and I was AMAZING! the car felt even better than my previous Riv of which I thought was a gem and inspired me to by this Riv. I did hit every stop light towards the end but there was absolutely no issue, no SES light. Same went for the ride home, a 110mile trip.

The next day however was extremely cold and I may have driven the Riv before it had time to warm up cause the light went off just down the street from my house going 20mph. And subsiquently it will go off some days and not others. It didn't today.

On that long ride to the GF, I hit a nice boost once and awhile without the light coming on. Man, I want THAT Riv back. I miss that Riv. sad

You really ought to check that vacuum harness.

Albertj
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albertj
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P0104 - EGR low-flow code Empty
PostSubject: Epilogue   P0104 - EGR low-flow code EmptyThu Jan 12, 2012 3:54 pm

I got the replacement vac harness from the dealer and installed it today.

what an eye opener -- No Wonder they sell the thing as a unit instead of just the the fittings.

Short story - it had become brittle with age and was probably leaking a little all over.

Details - When I removed the old line, the line broke at the SC dump solenoid and at the LIM nipple. The rubber fitting on the LIM nipple sheared off, and the line broke as I was fishing it out.

There is a problem with the fit of the new harness - the rubber fitting at the LIM nipple is too far to teh rear so the fitting is strained a little that point. Fits fine but I need to look at it again in a couple days, before the rubber takes a heat-set. I might have misrouted it in some minor way. I wiggled it around a bit which seemed to reduce the strain but the only thing I could think of to eliminate the strain would be to move the vac nipple on the LIM about 2-3 mm toward the firewall.

Glad I put it in myself, I'd never know there was an issue...

Albertj
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P0104 - EGR low-flow code Empty
PostSubject: Re: P0104 - EGR low-flow code   P0104 - EGR low-flow code EmptyThu Jan 12, 2012 4:40 pm

Albert is it possible to reverse the harness? So instead of BBV-T-MAP you put it in the other way MAP-T-BBV? Or is there more to the harness than those making it impossible to reverse?

-Derek
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albertj
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P0104 - EGR low-flow code Empty
PostSubject: Re: P0104 - EGR low-flow code   P0104 - EGR low-flow code EmptyThu Jan 12, 2012 8:19 pm

deekster_caddy wrote:
Albert is it possible to reverse the harness? So instead of BBV-T-MAP you put it in the other way MAP-T-BBV? Or is there more to the harness than those making it impossible to reverse?

-Derek

There's no way to reverse the harness and make it fit. For instance it has connectors on the ends, a straight one to the SC dump solenoid and a 90-degree one to the MAP sensor. There are two rubber "t"s in the middle, one to the fuel pressure regulator and the other to the manifold vac nipple. All the connectors are glued in place. Thanks for asking though.

The way I put it in was to place it parallel to the old one while the old one was in place, then remove the old one and install the new connector by connector.

The connector at the LIM nipple is not off by very much, it's off by maybe about the diameter of the nipple itself. I suspect there was a running change between the sII and sIII 3800 engine. Reminds me of the gas tank filler I have off a park ave, and the factory cat/resonator/muffler I have that was made "for a park ave ultra" (that everyone knew was a Riviera) on that muffler system the o2 sensor bung was about 4" away from where the old one was, I fabricated an aluminum splash shield extension for the wiring and put it right on. No wiring change was needed.

If the connectors were not glued in place, it would easily be fixed by sliding the hard tubing in a little/out a little at the rubber tee.

Another way to make this fix would be to get some nylon vac tees and elbows, and about 3 feet of small gage (I'd have to check but 2.5 to 3.5 mm ID comes to mind) hi temp vac hose, then rigging up a replacement. There is enough working room that you could cut the hose to size as you go and put clips or standoffs on various locations to loom the stuff nice and neat. It would take enough longer that the vacuum harness is actually a cheaper way to go.

As for my vac harness for all I know when I routed the tubing I hung it up on something. And it was a little tough to get it onto the nipple on the MAP sensor (I'll find out Saturday maybe. Right now it's on, it's running and the harness is not brittle so my review/refit can wait).
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P0104 - EGR low-flow code Empty
PostSubject: Re: P0104 - EGR low-flow code   P0104 - EGR low-flow code EmptyThu Jan 12, 2012 11:22 pm

I just replaced all the hoses with stuff I had hanging around and a quick trip to NAPA for a tee. It may not look stock but it sure works well, Learned from my Turbo Regal that exact size and bends are not needed. Lucky for me none off the male nipples broke, just the female pieces cracked and were easily replaced.
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P0104 - EGR low-flow code Empty
PostSubject: Re: P0104 - EGR low-flow code   P0104 - EGR low-flow code EmptyFri Jan 13, 2012 2:35 am

96riv wrote:
I just replaced all the hoses with stuff I had hanging around and a quick trip to NAPA for a tee. It may not look stock but it sure works well, Learned from my Turbo Regal that exact size and bends are not needed. Lucky for me none off the male nipples broke, just the female pieces cracked and were easily replaced.

Yeah, I don't have the shop supplies around so buying the vac harness was not *too* damaging.

I kinda wonder if the VW-style fabric covered hose would be a better idea than that what's in there stock.

Albertj
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P0104 - EGR low-flow code Empty
PostSubject: Re: P0104 - EGR low-flow code   P0104 - EGR low-flow code EmptyFri Jan 13, 2012 9:50 am

Quote :
I just replaced all the hoses with stuff I had hanging around and a quick trip to NAPA for a tee. It may not look stock but it sure works well, Learned from my Turbo Regal that exact size and bends are not needed. Lucky for me none off the male nipples broke, just the female pieces cracked and were easily replaced.
I did the same. Converted most of my hard plastic lines to soft rubber pieces from the local parts store. It helped with hose routing maneuvers, and so far after more than 2 years everything's held up well.

_________________
'05 GTO 6.0L • 6-spd • 95k miles • 0-60: 4.8s • 16.9 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26

'95 Celica GT 2.2L • 5-spd • 165k miles • 0-60: yes

'98 SC Riviera • 281k miles • 298 HP/370 TQ • 0-60: 5.79s • ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 • 4087 lb • 20.1 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
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P0104 - EGR low-flow code Empty
PostSubject: Epilogue   P0104 - EGR low-flow code EmptySat Jan 14, 2012 6:41 pm

Well, I went back under the hood today to find out why the rubber tee was cocked.

Boy am I embarrassed.

All that happened was I missed the nipple for the MAP sensor - got the fitting behind it instead of on it. Not that you can even see the nipple... anyway, point is the vac harness is on right, the tee's no longer cocked, and I'm off to the next project.

Albertj
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