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Mattwa
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PostSubject: Re: cleaned up the exhaust a bit   cleaned up the exhaust a bit - Page 5 EmptySun Jul 22, 2012 2:07 am

I'm not sure, but I don't think so.
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PostSubject: Re: cleaned up the exhaust a bit   cleaned up the exhaust a bit - Page 5 EmptySun Jul 22, 2012 12:18 pm

Mattwa wrote:
I'm not sure, but I don't think so.

I can't even find out how big the series 1 throttlebody is online, at all.


The ONLY thing Iv'e seen at ALL that MIGHT indicate how big the L67 series I TB is would be this:

Karma wrote:
The stock TB(and TB plate) on the 95 is already bigger then the stock TB on the 96+ cars. So its not as bad as all that.

However, you would need to do some tuning to get the use out of a larger TB. Which is "interesting" on the 95.

See this thread for info on 95 tuning:
http://www.3800pro.com/forum/general-tech/26439-tuning-obd1-3800s.html


EDIT:

96RIVMANN wrote:
cleaned up the exhaust a bit - Page 5 Imgp3149ra9

Here's my throttle body after a good cleaning. I went as far as to remove the butteryfly and polish it with some Mothers aluminum polish. Came out real nice.

98riviera98 wrote:
cleaned up the exhaust a bit - Page 5 Maf10


i see the mass air flow suspect

Judging by those pics, and that most cans of cleaner like that are a little under 3 inches in diameter, that makes the series I throttlebody a 75mm TB?!?!

I might atually rip the TB off my new L36 which needs the rebuild, and see what I can do about frankenstein jury rigging the sensors from the L36 into the series I TB. it would basically be as good as a northstart TB kit which saves me $300, unless it's not possible at all. Also, I like how the throttle cable works A LOT better on the L67 series I than my stock L36. How are sensors different in the series I from series II? how big in mm is that throttle body, I'd have taken it apart, but I don't actually own it, and I'm more respectful than that to my step dad :/

Sooooo, since I searched for like 6+ hours online to find the size in mm of the Series I L67 TB..can someone help me with that?

And by the way, I'm willing to try to fabricate some, an L36 TB is 65mm, and an L67 TB is 69mm. A ported L36 TB is 68mm (smaller than L67) and a ported L67 TB is 69mm (smaller than an LS1 or northstar TB, which is 75mm, and that LOOKS like it's about that size, but I can't have real depth perception based on a picture of cleaner in a can Iv'e never seen. Either way, if I COULD make it work, it would save me $300 from the N* TB kit on ZZP performance website, and I'd be extremely happy because it would make that riv my step dad bought more worth it, I kind of feel shitty that I noticed pulley size was so small, said something and didn't even realize it was a Series I engine, and a huge reason he bought it was to do a top swap on my car. Now I feel retarded frown

EDIT: I found out that that exact can of cleaner is 2.6 in diameter, and the TB judging by the 2.6 in size of can looks to be 3 in diameter also judging by the fact the outer diameter of the housing of the TB I measured was about 4 in, I'm thinking that COULD be a 75mm TB, which makes me VERY inclined to try my best to make it work and save 300 bucks, that's a rocker kit, or a camshaft right there! big savings, if it CAN work :/

EDIT AGAIN:

YESSSS!!!! Hours and hours of research and I FINALLY found the throttle body size.

http://gmoem.com/oem-parts/24501537.html

GM OEM Parts wrote:
Throt (See Group 3.000 "body, Throttle"for Detail Illustrated View.) (**vpi 1-877-846-8243)

So basically, it IS a 75mm throttle body, (unless "3.000 doesn't mean 3 inches = 75mm? >_>) I'm VERY willling to try VERY hard to make that damn thing work on my car, if it's possible at all, basically saves me $300 from buying a northstar TB kit santa

Anyway, I'm happy I actually managed to somehow guess that exactly right by looking at the pictures, which took hours and hours of searching online, going through thousands of google links and images, just to find those posts on Rivperformance to get a look at those pics :/

oh and that part costs more than my step dad paid for the car lol bonk

Edit one more time:


cleaned up the exhaust a bit - Page 5 Dsc07146l

I'm done trying to find more info about this, but I stumbled across that image. the left one is the gen 2 M62, and the right one would be the gen 3 M62 throttle body. The gen 2 on the left is probably about the same size as my L36 throttle body. you can SEE how drastic this is, and why it's worth upgrading for me if at all possible, and remember, I have a whole L36 motor I can use at my disposal to jury rig it to work somehow smile

And, if anything else, an adapter plate could probably be made, and if there are vacuum line holes or whatever not compatible, it would be pretty easy to plug those holes I'm thinking anyway.

Most important thing: Are the MAF sensors compatible? Are the MAF sensors the same size being the L36 physical sensor to the L67 series 1 to physically swap the sensors?



Just for curious info about 95 vs 96'+...is anyone willing to teach me the boost modulation differences of a 95 Eaton M62 boosted riv and the M90? Would 97 supercharged riviera know how to modulate the boost control electronically or what have you of the m62 gen 3 supercharger? Theoretically I'm just asking, I know the LIM bolt and inlet pattern and size, snout size, SC body size, head bolt size and a bunch of other things are different. I just wanted to know the specific differences in boost modulation and airflow readings the two engines have, if it's even possible to tell me this.
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PostSubject: Re: cleaned up the exhaust a bit   cleaned up the exhaust a bit - Page 5 EmptySun Jul 22, 2012 2:24 pm

You don't want the m62 on your engine. It pumps out way too much heat and it not worth it when you could top swap or go turbo for wayyy less trouble.

That said, if you want a bigger TB the series 1 TB for the gen 3 M62 is bigger than the series 2 L67 TB, and a bit smaller than the N* TB. If you could get one and adapt it to fit, then go for it. Or if you found a N* TB, just get that and stick it on since adapter plates are readily available to do that for your engine. Also its a common thing to do so you won't be re-inventing anything in the tuning dept. You could get a mail order tune just saying you have an L36 with a N* TB.(And of course the Lq4 MAF that would need to go with it.) That would set you up for whatever direction you wanted to go, topswap or turbo.

An aside about the boost modulation, they will interchange. The BCS on both SC's are interchangeable. The MAF's are not, though you can stick the series 2 MAF into a series 1 TB. As far as what differences the PCM sees between an m90 and the m62 there is no difference. It would have no idea which one is on the engine, they both move the same air and make the same boost(stock) just one does it with less heat and parasitic draw and the other builds boost a little quicker

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PostSubject: Re: cleaned up the exhaust a bit   cleaned up the exhaust a bit - Page 5 EmptySun Jul 22, 2012 2:30 pm

So, after thinking more and more about it, many people will call this retarded beyond belief..but, I got an idea.

Basically trying to make an insert like an inch or so in between my L36 lower intake manifold and the M62 supercharger I already have, and putting the heater core from the parts car in between the M62 outlet and the lower intake manifold, using a good waterpump (I have a Swiftech MCP 665-b 12v water pump somewhere I have to find from when I used to do hardcore overclocking when I was building computer watercooling setups. specs on the pump are:


Nominal Voltage: 12VDC
Operating Voltage: 6~14VDC
Nominal Power: 24W
Nominal Current: 2A
Motor Type: Brushless, Microprocessor Controller
Maximum Head: 10ft
Maximum Discharge: 317 GPH (1200LPH)
Maximum Pressure: 50PSI (3.5 BAR)
Temperature Range: 32°F to 140°F (0°C to 60°C)
Electrical Connector: Molex 4-pin
Weight: 1.4 LB (650gr)
Impeller Housing Material: Noryl


cleaned up the exhaust a bit - Page 5 Yhst-39083765508394_2217_1355434491



It's a ceramic brushless motor. Anyway, use that, and then get a heat exchanger of some sort I may have laying around as well, and some tubing I also may have, if not, hardware store. This would effectively be a real intercooled M62 on an L36 higher compression, basically equivilent to a northstar throttle body conversion,( better flowing heads than a stock L67 stock for stock) ported lower intake manifold would happen, and I could drop pulley sizes to max boost without any KR and my motor would be fine. The m62 on full boost would probably max out my tranny's power capabilities anyway. Also, I will be making peak torque for the same airflow faster than using an M90 because of smaller rotating assembly in the SC housing itself, and the fact that the M62 is going tobe spinning a lot faster. also I'll have less parisitic effects on the motor itself from a lighter, faster spinning gen 3 has teflon and epoxy coatings and runs decently cool, and I Read somewhere that it doesn't hit diminishing returns the same way when spinning faster the same way like an M90 would, and I'm not sure how much boost I COULD make on it by dropping pullies..but I know I can make at LEAST more torque than a stock series II L67 if that did work, and my motor would have better self aspiration flow than a stock L67 (flow if it were naturally aspirated). because of less parisitic effect on the motor, and the fact that the m62 spins up way faster than an m90, I think I might have better atomization of the fuel with injectors in the intake manifold instead of the heads of the motor like the L67 has, which would theoretically increase gas mileage as well.

My only issue is sure, adapters CAN be made, and the drive belt CAN be configured to drive the m62, but I don't know how I would be controlling the boost properly, but I think that could be done manually if I absolutely had to. I know turbos can have manual boost control, and so can superchargers.

So basically for my plan to work, I would need to somehow make the engine sensors work with the boost I'd be getting, and I'd need a tune, and I'd probably want to advance timing, and if the fuel pump or fuel rails or injectors are better on the series I then I'll steal them off for my series II L36 rockets

Either way, you have to admit, it's a novel idea, I already HAVE all those parts, why not at least look into adapting the way better parts on to my car. for the most part, it's not rocket science, it's adapting fittings in a rather complicated fashion.


And, I kinda thought that the heater core idea was neat as shit, They use ford probe heater core in the ZZP intercooler for our cars, I believe rotf
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PostSubject: Re: cleaned up the exhaust a bit   cleaned up the exhaust a bit - Page 5 EmptySun Jul 22, 2012 2:40 pm

Karma wrote:
As far as what differences the PCM sees between an m90 and the m62 there is no difference. It would have no idea which one is on the engine, they both move the same air and make the same boost(stock) just one does it with less heat and parasitic draw and the other builds boost a little quicker
I would argue (for clarity's sake) this actually proves a case for the M90 outflowing the M62, even though in 3800 V-6 application the smaller pulley used on the M62 makes it pump harder at a given RPM. Similarly overdriven, the M90 might compete with a moderately boosted M112, but not within its range of thermal efficiency.

Quote :
Basically trying to make an insert like an inch or so in between my L36 lower intake manifold and the M62 supercharger I already have, and putting the heater core from the parts car in between the M62 outlet and the lower intake manifold, using a good waterpump (I have a Swiftech MCP 665-b 12v water pump somewhere I have to find from when I used to do hardcore overclocking when I was building computer watercooling setups.
I think you'd be better off buying a short stack IC from ZZP and modifying it to fit your application.

What you are suggesting could certainly be done, but you're making a lot of assumptions that may prove incorrect later on:

Quote :
"This would effectively be a real intercooled M62 on an L36 higher compression, basically equivilent to a northstar throttle body conversion,"
You don't really know this.

Quote :
"I could drop pulley sizes to max boost without any KR and my motor would be fine."
Extremely dangerous thinking here.

Quote :
also I'll have less parisitic effects on the motor itself from a lighter, faster spinning gen 3 has teflon and epoxy coatings and runs decently cool
M90 also has Teflon coating, and it's parasitic losses are similar. I would guess since you must run the M62 at a higher RPM to achieve the same boost as M90, your losses would be even higher with the M62 (because it's doing more work to achieve the same result).

Quote :
fact that the m62 spins up way faster than an m90, I think I might have better atomization of the fuel with injectors in the intake manifold instead of the heads of the motor like the L67 has, which would theoretically increase gas mileage as well.
I don't think the atomization will be that different. The fuel economy should be similar between M62 and M90. If you get less MPG from the M90, it's because the M90 is making more power and you are using it.

Quote :
sure, adapters CAN be made, and the drive belt CAN be configured to drive the m62, but I don't know how I would be controlling the boost properly, but I think that could be done manually if I absolutely had to. I know turbos can have manual boost control, and so can superchargers.
Boost control on a roots blower is called swapping the blower pulley using MPS.

Quote :
Also, I will be making peak torque for the same airflow faster than using an M90 because of smaller rotating assembly in the SC housing itself, and the fact that the M62 is going tobe spinning a lot faster.
This is precisely why using the M62 is a bad idea, and it's likely why Buick moved to the M90. There is decent low end torque with the 3800 V-6 already. Using the M62 builds even more low end because it works more efficiently in the lower RPM range. Adding an IC makes the situation even worse, since intercooling is really just a way to build more boost (more low end torque). You'll end up with a burn out queen that isn't very quick to the finish line. All that torque is also much harder on your transmission.

Build your engine to breath for mid/top end HP. A turbo or M90 blower will help with this, making more power/torque in the higher RPM band. This makes a much better DD and a quicker car overall. Plus, your transmission will thank you.

Quote :
Either way, you have to admit, it's a novel idea
I think it's a very complicated, unproven idea. Certainly not impossible, but I think there's a reason GM abandoned the M62 for the 3800 V-6. Have you considered rebuilding the Series I SC and driving that car?

_________________
'98 SC Riviera • 281k miles • 298 HP/370 TQ • 0-60: 5.79s • ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 • 4087 lb • 20.1 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley • AL104 plugs • 180º t-stat • FWI w/K&N • 1.9:1 rockers • OR pushrods • LS6 valve springs • SLP headers • ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts • MaxAir shocks • Addco sway bars • UMI bushings • GM STB • Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s • F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus • SS lines • Brembo slotted discs • DHP tuned • Aeroforce • Hidden Hitch

^^^ SOLD ^^^ frown

'05 GTO • 85k miles • 0-60: 4.8s • 16.9 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
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PostSubject: Re: cleaned up the exhaust a bit   cleaned up the exhaust a bit - Page 5 EmptySun Jul 22, 2012 3:03 pm

Karma wrote:
You don't want the m62 on your engine. It pumps out way too much heat and it not worth it when you could top swap or go turbo for wayyy less trouble.

That said, if you want a bigger TB the series 1 TB for the gen 3 M62 is bigger than the series 2 L67 TB, and a bit smaller than the N* TB. If you could get one and adapt it to fit, then go for it. Or if you found a N* TB, just get that and stick it on since adapter plates are readily available to do that for your engine. Also its a common thing to do so you won't be re-inventing anything in the tuning dept. You could get a mail order tune just saying you have an L36 with a N* TB.(And of course the Lq4 MAF that would need to go with it.) That would set you up for whatever direction you wanted to go, topswap or turbo.

An aside about the boost modulation, they will interchange. The BCS on both SC's are interchangeable. The MAF's are not, though you can stick the series 2 MAF into a series 1 TB. As far as what differences the PCM sees between an m90 and the m62 there is no difference. It would have no idea which one is on the engine, they both move the same air and make the same boost(stock) just one does it with less heat and parasitic draw and the other builds boost a little quicker

That information actually makes me VERY happy. I already HAVE the series 1 supercharged engine, I have the Eaton gen 3 supercharger, I HAVE both my L36, and another L36 that needs a rebuild that I can screw with while driving my perfectly running series II L36 until I'd get the fitment perfect. my ONLY problem in my plan according to your reply is fitment, and custom brackets, given that there would be an insert to basically mesh together the M62 on top of the L36 LIM, and act as an adapter plate at the same time, WHILE acting as an intercooler, any heat I'd be getting would be null and void. I would make at LEAST as much power as a stock L67 with those mods. I am by no means at all claiming that the M62 is better, but I have it already.

Also, an M90 dropping pulley sizes would easily have the potential to destroy my non HD tranny into a thousand pieces, the M62 can easily max out my tranny by dropping pulley sizes. I could probably get at LEAST 300 crank horses out of the M62 with an intercooler, and supporting mods, if it somehow worked. you can't deny that. I'd make the boost faster and make more torque than a stock L67 because of a bigger TB, better flowing heads, higher compression pistons and a ghetto but real working intercooler setup.

I don't need 400 WHP out of an M90 when that would destroy my tranny. I'd be happy with 250-300 wheel horses, whatever my tranny is max safe at. This isn't a drag supercar, lol.


Basically I have all the time in the world to screw with the Eaton Gen 3 M62 and the stock L36 motor that was in my moms bonneville for fitment, I can tear out the LIM and port it myself not affecting my car running at all, make the fitment work for the heater core insert for the intercooler, and make sure it will bolt up right, make sure the engine belt will drive it somehow, and then when it all fits, basically swap it on my L36. Power gains would be HUGE.


If I fail? Well, the M62 actually has a big market for small displacement engines. Some dumbass will buy it from me for $250-400 for their honda, MR2, Lotus, Celica, Poor man's colbalt SS, or whatever frowned upon project they might have, if I can't get the throttle body to work (I can probably do it without trouble with a custom adapter plate and the MAF out of my other L36 sitting in the shed), then that part brand new OEM costs $680 or so, I could sell it cheap to a member here preferably for their series I or on Ebay if that fails.

AA wrote:
Quote :
As far as what differences the PCM sees between an m90 and the m62 there is no difference. It would have no idea which one is on the engine, they both move the same air and make the same boost(stock) just one does it with less heat and parasitic draw and the other builds boost a little quicker
I would argue (for clarity's sake) this actually proves a case for the M90 outflowing the M62, even though in 3800 V-6 application the smaller pulley used on the M62 makes it pump harder at a given RPM. Similarly overdriven, the M90 might compete with a moderately boosted M112, but not within its range of thermal efficiency.

Quote :
Basically trying to make an insert like an inch or so in between my L36 lower intake manifold and the M62 supercharger I already have, and putting the heater core from the parts car in between the M62 outlet and the lower intake manifold, using a good waterpump (I have a Swiftech MCP 665-b 12v water pump somewhere I have to find from when I used to do hardcore overclocking when I was building computer watercooling setups.
I think you'd be better off buying a short stack IC from ZZP and modifying it to fit your application.

What you are suggesting could certainly be done, but you're making a lot of assumptions that may prove incorrect later on:


This is very true sir, I did make a lot of assumptions with a rough plan, while making a back up plan if I fail. There is no harm in planning outside the box with what you already have, to achieve your goals (in my case, increased volumetric efficiency of my engine). A turbo build would be easier, yes, but I have most, if not all of the parts I need laying around aimlessly. People make the M62 supercharger work on many radical crazy setups like Hondas, and Lotus motors.

I realize it will never outflow the bigger M90, but the M90 would take my engine to far exceed what my tranny can handle, and it makes no sense to trash what I have to simply have more power potential. The m62 has nowhere near the potential of the M90, but it's smaller, lighter and more compact, gives me a 75mm throttle body (Saves me $300 right there from the Northstar throttle body kit), I will hit peak boost and torque in my engine faster in the RPM power band than any m90 flowing the same CFM though the intake manifold.

But, it's pretty much just a retarded plan that probably won't work at this point. if it doesn't work, then I sell the uneeded parts, and basically buy turbo parts with the money I saved and turbo the car instead. Remember:

You once said

AA wrote:
Using the HX35 sounds like a great idea, for the reasons you've mentioned. Everyone wants a bigger turbo, so they can potentially make more boost in the future, after they replace their engine internals, transmission, etc. I think that day often never comes. If you know what you want to do right now, you can plan accordingly. I'd do that.

HD trans helps, but it does not mean the entire unit is bulletproof. The diff is strong though - you prob won't have to worry about it if you drive responsibly.

250 WHP can push you into high 13 sec 1/4 mile territory. That might not seem that fast, but trust me, it is. Back in the late '60s, when muscle cars ruled the earth, high 13 sec times were respected, and they still should be. Yes, a new Vette can run 11s. That's not fast, it's insane. Yes, I want that, but I certainly don't need it.

I would argue in defense of the blower when it comes to parasitic losses. While it's true that a blower requires about 40-50 HP to add 100 HP at WOT (turbo is more efficient here), when at low RPM cruise, many folks don't understand that the power to turn the blower, belts, and pulleys is under 1HP, because there's no load (boost). A turbo takes less to push at low RPM, but it works as a restriction in the exhaust. The blower has a bypass. So I would argue the blower is actually more fuel efficient, which explains the almost unbelievable hwy MPG numbers some have seen. Can it be done with a turbo? Don't know, but I think Eaton figured out something great with the m90 roots blower with regard to fuel efficiency vs. power adding.

Quote :

Yes, stock M90 have better flowing characteristics than stock M62, but only SLIGHTLY bettter (if ANY at all) comparing to double pulleyed M62. On top of that remeber that M90 it is much greater parasit in terms of power it demands from the engine to drive it compared to double pulleyed M62.
Second thing is that you can not endlessly enlarge volume of blown air, because engine will start to ping and starve of fuel! Double pulleyed M62 is getting JUST A WRIGHT ammount of air to the engine with not too much parasitic loses in terms of PS and TQ; any more blown air end you have to make drastic changes to engine to make it not ping and starve from fuel.


From a forum I found, I can't prove their claims, but it seems to make sense. Given less parisitic effect, and still making more power than a stock L67, wouldn't I accomplish my goals, and save more money than buying a turbo or an M90 from gas money alone eventually/having free parts?


I am by no means trying to argue or claim I know better than much older people who know much more than I do, who are probably more intelligent than me, and more wise, but I can claim to think differently, which could help if I get lucky freak

And I just saw your edits, or realized no info in your post.

I wouldn't be boosting it past what torque my tranny doens't like or isn't safe with. remember, my motor has 40 ft lbs less torque than a stock L67, and just getting the same torque would help make it faster.


And, couldn't I eventually cam it, or get rockers to change the powerband to higher RPM more somewhat? Higher flowing heads and a 75mm throttlebody, ported LIM, and I can get headers eventually, as well as looking into porting the other heads I have laying around, which would increase engine flow and help with shifting that powerband a little as well?

EDIT: The point of the intercooler would be to completely eliminate any engine knock I could possibly have on my higher compression pistons, and make my motor more safe and reliable, I could go up pulley sizes from stock, if I wanted, and also, the L67 series 1 with the gen 3 had a smaller pulley than the gen 3. The gen 3 m62 is actually not terribly inefficient from what I understand and runs cooler than the gen 2, but I wouldn't care going up pulley sizes if I had too much torque for the tranny (doubt this would possibly happen on stock pulley)

But, given I eventually did cam the motor, that would help a lot with too much torque right? Also, 300 crank horses still wouldn't be destroying my tranny would it? Yours has 300 wheel horses and nearly close to 400 lbs of WHEEL torque and you're fine! :o

Also, why would an HX35 holton turbo be a better idea spooling so fast vs an HX45? Wouldn't that in theory destroy my transmission as well, making my only options bigger, slower spooling turbo options? confused

I'm tired of having such a crappy slow car. I can't even hope to lose traction on my current L36 setup. I can't even make the wheel slip no matter how hard I try. This thing has retarded terrible torque as it is, and feels so slow from 0-40 as it is. I would absolutely love getting that low end pickup which I completely lack as of right now bounce
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PostSubject: Re: cleaned up the exhaust a bit   cleaned up the exhaust a bit - Page 5 EmptySun Jul 22, 2012 3:34 pm

Quote :
Also, 300 crank horses still wouldn't be destroying my tranny would it? Yours has 300 wheel horses and nearly close to 400 lbs of WHEEL torque and you're fine!
It really depends on how you make that 300 HP. My dyno numbers are rated at crank (248WHP/308WTQ) and my HP peaks at 5300 RPM, hanging on pretty well until 5700 RPM. The torque number is large, but the curve extends higher into the RPM compared to the M62. It's my believe that extremely high torque numbers at low RPM = more stress on transmission.

Intercoolers are fine for controlling knock, but 3800 vendors sell them under the assumption they are for building up to 50 HP - through adding boost. All of that HP comes as low-end torque. There are other ways to suppress KR, including letting the engine breath easier, and tuning. Besides, our engines don't really need much more low-end torque than they already have. If I could easily swap 50 lb-ft for 50 HP for free, I would, but I'm happy enough with what I have.

_________________
'98 SC Riviera • 281k miles • 298 HP/370 TQ • 0-60: 5.79s • ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 • 4087 lb • 20.1 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley • AL104 plugs • 180º t-stat • FWI w/K&N • 1.9:1 rockers • OR pushrods • LS6 valve springs • SLP headers • ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts • MaxAir shocks • Addco sway bars • UMI bushings • GM STB • Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s • F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus • SS lines • Brembo slotted discs • DHP tuned • Aeroforce • Hidden Hitch

^^^ SOLD ^^^ frown

'05 GTO • 85k miles • 0-60: 4.8s • 16.9 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun


'70 Olds Ninety-Eight Holiday Coupe • 116k miles • 455 Rocket V8
Because cool


'95 Celica • 152k miles • 0-60: yes
Because free
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cleaned up the exhaust a bit - Page 5 Empty
PostSubject: Re: cleaned up the exhaust a bit   cleaned up the exhaust a bit - Page 5 EmptySun Jul 22, 2012 3:56 pm

AA wrote:
Quote :
Also, 300 crank horses still wouldn't be destroying my tranny would it? Yours has 300 wheel horses and nearly close to 400 lbs of WHEEL torque and you're fine!
It really depends on how you make that 300 HP. My dyno numbers are rated at crank (248WHP/308WTQ) and my HP peaks at 5300 RPM, hanging on pretty well until 5700 RPM. The torque number is large, but the curve extends higher into the RPM compared to the M62. It's my believe that extremely high torque numbers at low RPM = more stress on transmission.

Intercoolers are fine for controlling knock, but 3800 vendors sell them under the assumption they are for building up to 50 HP - through adding boost. All of that HP comes as low-end torque. There are other ways to suppress KR, including letting the engine breath easier, and tuning. Besides, our engines don't really need much more low-end torque than they already have. If I could easily swap 50 lb-ft for 50 HP for free, I would, but I'm happy enough with what I have.

Okay, then I will have my intercooler setup without actually connecting the waterpump to it, and it won't be anything but a power adder if I need it, or a VERY useful tool to eliminate KR if I have it? I might as well USE the heatercore for SOMETHING that comes out of the frankenstein parts zombie buick my step dad bought, and if I have to make a custom spacer to interface the M62 with the L36 ported lower intake manifold, then I might as well stick a heatercore I already have in between it for something there to completely destroy KR on my motor if I want,, just by being there, it's a very useful fall back incase shit goes wrong and I had too much KR.

People everywhere on this forum told me my motor would basically blow up from KR in seconds from an M90 top-swap, it has left me with a somewhat lasting impression to preserve my motor not to explode as my number one priority if I boost it at all scratch

Anyway, If I make the spacer, the intercooler might as well go in between, if it makes too much torque, I'll turn off the function of the intercooler, if my engine makes knock and I have too much boost then and too much torque for my tranny then I'll turn on the IC pump and go up pulley sizes?

I mean, if I'm making the spacer to get it to work, it's only a matter of 5 minutes extra work to give me intercooler function for my m62, why not at least HAVE the capability, which greatly increases my overall capability of the motor? And the M62 makes something like 30% more heat flowing the same air as the M90, this being the case, it makes me VERY inclined to make the intercooler work neutral

also, just because the peak torque is higher on the series 1, keep in mind, my engine will have flow mods out of the box ready to go, and my motor will flow MUCH better than the series I stock internals will, correct me if I'm wrong on that?


Either way, I'd have options to do whatever might be the case is the best option at that point in question, leaving extra doors open wouldn't hurt?

Edit: and It's astounding that you made it into high 13's with over 4000 pounds when a 1/4 ET calculator based on power to weight ratio of wheel or crank horses given a 17% drivetrain loss, says 248 wheel horses yields a 14.8 second 1/4 ET

You get serious respect from that, making your riv much faster than your power to weight ratio would indicated thumbsup


Although, How can my rivvy possibly weigh 397 pounds less than yours? Mine has a curb weight of 3,690 lbs, only 107 pounds more than a stock Grand Prix GTP. That makes no sense to me suspect
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cleaned up the exhaust a bit - Page 5 Empty
PostSubject: Re: cleaned up the exhaust a bit   cleaned up the exhaust a bit - Page 5 EmptySun Jul 22, 2012 5:46 pm

Quote :
I might as well USE the heatercore for SOMETHING that comes out of the frankenstein parts zombie buick my step dad bought, and if I have to make a custom spacer to interface the M62 with the L36 ported lower intake manifold, then I might as well stick a heatercore I already have in between it for something there to completely destroy KR on my motor if I want,, just by being there, it's a very useful fall back incase shit goes wrong and I had too much KR.
I agree, it would be a fun experiment. Ideas are good, but feasibility is something to consider. Whether or not this idea works or not depends on whether you can make it happen. If you can get it to work, no leaks, and zero KR, then props to you. If you can't, then you wasted your time, not the end of the world. You may want to compare your pump's flow rate with the GM IC pump sold with popular 3800 kits. If it doesn't flow fast enough to move all the heat, might as well not go through the trouble.

I've seen some crazy ideas for intercooling this engine, including AIR-TO-AIR for the M90 on a 3800. No, that's not a type-o; it's been done. Would I even consider it? Not a chance. I don't want a Frankenstein monster living beneath my hood. I want something reliable and efficient, and that doesn't cause me to be under the hood a lot.

Quote :
People everywhere on this forum told me my motor would basically blow up from KR in seconds from an M90 top-swap, it has left me with a somewhat lasting impression to preserve my motor not to explode as my number one priority if I boost it at all
This can be done, and has been done, by a few knowledgeable individuals. Key words: knowledge, from experience. Experience means actually building, then testing, then adjusting, and learning. But to just obtain the parts, put them together, quick tune, then go, it's just stupid. I would actually be interested in such an engine if I had the money to pay one of these guys who does it right, but again, I'm happy with my L67 + bolt-ons. I got 246k miles out of it the first time, so I'm not changing a thing.

Quote :
Anyway, If I make the spacer, the intercooler might as well go in between, if it makes too much torque, I'll turn off the function of the intercooler, if my engine makes knock and I have too much boost then and too much torque for my tranny then I'll turn on the IC pump and go up pulley sizes?
If you install the IC, leave it turned on. Can't hurt anything by transferring heat, so no need to disable it. Having the IC doesn't increase your boost, power, or torque all by itself - it just erases KR. If the engine knocks, turn down the boost (increase pulley), adjust timing, or play with your A/F mixture. The only way to know how much torque you're really making is to dyno.

Quote :
I mean, if I'm making the spacer to get it to work, it's only a matter of 5 minutes extra work to give me intercooler function for my m62, why not at least HAVE the capability, which greatly increases my overall capability of the motor?
Could be 5 minutes, but more likely 5 hours, or possibly even 5 days. Considering this is your first time, take your time and allow for the unexpected. Who knows what you will discover?

Quote :
also, just because the peak torque is higher on the series 1, keep in mind, my engine will have flow mods out of the box ready to go, and my motor will flow MUCH better than the series I stock internals will, correct me if I'm wrong on that?
I hope the M62 can keep up. There is a limit to how fast it can spin. At that point, you will have trouble building boost efficiently. This is why the M90 is better for making higher HP numbers, and why some have even max out the M90 and gone to the M112.

Quote :
It's astounding that you made it into high 13's with over 4000 pounds when a 1/4 ET calculator based on power to weight ratio of wheel or crank horses given a 17% drivetrain loss, says 248 wheel horses yields a 14.8 second 1/4 ET
What's not so astounding is that the calculator was wrong. There are lots of variables that define the ET, and probably an even larger number of different ET calculators, each using a slightly different sets of equations. This why you can't trust a Droid app to tell you HP/TQ and 1/4 mile times. It's also why you can't trust MPG calculated by a mileage calculator. Real world results (infra-red beams on tarmac, sending information to a timer) are the only results that should count.

The added weight in my case comes from the subwoofer box + amps in the trunk, keeping the spare tire, jack, rear seat, etc. Plus gross weights are always higher than curb weights. Fluids, fuel, and a few add-ons near the end of production can make it change. Your car probably weighs around 3900 lb.

To be fair, my car was probably making ~320HP when I ran the 13.9 at Norwalk. It was in the high 50s, and I was running a 3.2" SC pulley, seeing up to 6ºKR. Decided to use the 3.4" and ran near 14 flat. That shows how running smaller pulleys can be dangerous. The wrong pulley can add a tiny bit of power at the expense of imperceptible detonation. Everything seems fine, then boom. Thankfully, I was scanning at the time and caught it. Others at the track that day weren't so lucky.

The dyno run was between 70-80ºF ambient, and my best run was the 7th. Lots of heat in the engine by that time, even though we "gained" 8 HP. Funny thing: KR was absent on the dyno for all runs. When I got back out on the road, the load of tires gripping pavement brought the KR back. Reflash PCM to loose the 8HP, all is good.

Remember this: YOU CAN'T KNOW UNTIL YOU TEST. WHAT YOU DON'T KNOW CAN & WILL HURT YOUR ENGINE!

And this: EVEN AFTER TESTING, NOTHING IS EVER 100%. CHANGES IN FUEL, TUNE, CONDITIONS, OR DRIVING STYLE CAN MEAN ALL BETS ARE OFF!

_________________
'98 SC Riviera • 281k miles • 298 HP/370 TQ • 0-60: 5.79s • ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 • 4087 lb • 20.1 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley • AL104 plugs • 180º t-stat • FWI w/K&N • 1.9:1 rockers • OR pushrods • LS6 valve springs • SLP headers • ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts • MaxAir shocks • Addco sway bars • UMI bushings • GM STB • Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s • F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus • SS lines • Brembo slotted discs • DHP tuned • Aeroforce • Hidden Hitch

^^^ SOLD ^^^ frown

'05 GTO • 85k miles • 0-60: 4.8s • 16.9 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun


'70 Olds Ninety-Eight Holiday Coupe • 116k miles • 455 Rocket V8
Because cool


'95 Celica • 152k miles • 0-60: yes
Because free
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c0reyl
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c0reyl

Name : Corey
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cleaned up the exhaust a bit - Page 5 Empty
PostSubject: Re: cleaned up the exhaust a bit   cleaned up the exhaust a bit - Page 5 EmptySun Jul 22, 2012 7:17 pm

AA wrote:
Quote :
I might as well USE the heatercore for SOMETHING that comes out of the frankenstein parts zombie buick my step dad bought, and if I have to make a custom spacer to interface the M62 with the L36 ported lower intake manifold, then I might as well stick a heatercore I already have in between it for something there to completely destroy KR on my motor if I want,, just by being there, it's a very useful fall back incase shit goes wrong and I had too much KR.
I agree, it would be a fun experiment. Ideas are good, but feasibility is something to consider. Whether or not this idea works or not depends on whether you can make it happen. If you can get it to work, no leaks, and zero KR, then props to you. If you can't, then you wasted your time, not the end of the world. You may want to compare your pump's flow rate with the GM IC pump sold with popular 3800 kits. If it doesn't flow fast enough to move all the heat, might as well not go through the trouble.

I've seen some crazy ideas for intercooling this engine, including AIR-TO-AIR for the M90 on a 3800. No, that's not a type-o; it's been done. Would I even consider it? Not a chance. I don't want a Frankenstein monster living beneath my hood. I want something reliable and efficient, and that doesn't cause me to be under the hood a lot.

Quote :
People everywhere on this forum told me my motor would basically blow up from KR in seconds from an M90 top-swap, it has left me with a somewhat lasting impression to preserve my motor not to explode as my number one priority if I boost it at all
This can be done, and has been done, by a few knowledgeable individuals. Key words: knowledge, from experience. Experience means actually building, then testing, then adjusting, and learning. But to just obtain the parts, put them together, quick tune, then go, it's just stupid. I would actually be interested in such an engine if I had the money to pay one of these guys who does it right, but again, I'm happy with my L67 + bolt-ons. I got 246k miles out of it the first time, so I'm not changing a thing.

Quote :
Anyway, If I make the spacer, the intercooler might as well go in between, if it makes too much torque, I'll turn off the function of the intercooler, if my engine makes knock and I have too much boost then and too much torque for my tranny then I'll turn on the IC pump and go up pulley sizes?
If you install the IC, leave it turned on. Can't hurt anything by transferring heat, so no need to disable it. Having the IC doesn't increase your boost, power, or torque all by itself - it just erases KR. If the engine knocks, turn down the boost (increase pulley), adjust timing, or play with your A/F mixture. The only way to know how much torque you're really making is to dyno.

Quote :
I mean, if I'm making the spacer to get it to work, it's only a matter of 5 minutes extra work to give me intercooler function for my m62, why not at least HAVE the capability, which greatly increases my overall capability of the motor?
Could be 5 minutes, but more likely 5 hours, or possibly even 5 days. Considering this is your first time, take your time and allow for the unexpected. Who knows what you will discover?

Quote :
also, just because the peak torque is higher on the series 1, keep in mind, my engine will have flow mods out of the box ready to go, and my motor will flow MUCH better than the series I stock internals will, correct me if I'm wrong on that?
I hope the M62 can keep up. There is a limit to how fast it can spin. At that point, you will have trouble building boost efficiently. This is why the M90 is better for making higher HP numbers, and why some have even max out the M90 and gone to the M112.

Quote :
It's astounding that you made it into high 13's with over 4000 pounds when a 1/4 ET calculator based on power to weight ratio of wheel or crank horses given a 17% drivetrain loss, says 248 wheel horses yields a 14.8 second 1/4 ET
What's not so astounding is that the calculator was wrong. There are lots of variables that define the ET, and probably an even larger number of different ET calculators, each using a slightly different sets of equations. This why you can't trust a Droid app to tell you HP/TQ and 1/4 mile times. It's also why you can't trust MPG calculated by a mileage calculator. Real world results (infra-red beams on tarmac, sending information to a timer) are the only results that should count.

The added weight in my case comes from the subwoofer box + amps in the trunk, keeping the spare tire, jack, rear seat, etc. Plus gross weights are always higher than curb weights. Fluids, fuel, and a few add-ons near the end of production can make it change. Your car probably weighs around 3900 lb.

To be fair, my car was probably making ~320HP when I ran the 13.9 at Norwalk. It was in the high 50s, and I was running a 3.2" SC pulley, seeing up to 6ºKR. Decided to use the 3.4" and ran near 14 flat. That shows how running smaller pulleys can be dangerous. The wrong pulley can add a tiny bit of power at the expense of imperceptible detonation. Everything seems fine, then boom. Thankfully, I was scanning at the time and caught it. Others at the track that day weren't so lucky.

The dyno run was between 70-80ºF ambient, and my best run was the 7th. Lots of heat in the engine by that time, even though we "gained" 8 HP. Funny thing: KR was absent on the dyno for all runs. When I got back out on the road, the load of tires gripping pavement brought the KR back. Reflash PCM to loose the 8HP, all is good.

Remember this: YOU CAN'T KNOW UNTIL YOU TEST. WHAT YOU DON'T KNOW CAN & WILL HURT YOUR ENGINE!

And this: EVEN AFTER TESTING, NOTHING IS EVER 100%. CHANGES IN FUEL, TUNE, CONDITIONS, OR DRIVING STYLE CAN MEAN ALL BETS ARE OFF!

Well, I do have a fair amount of time on my hands, and thank you for advice, it is much appreciated. Honestly, I'd be extremely happy pushing 250 WHP if the ghetto intercooler idea somehow works. I mean, I can actually probably get my step dad to find someone with a gand saw (or, my step grand father has one but lives 100 mi away) and I could pretty much shape the aluminum spacer that way, with the hole having the heater core inside of it, drill mill out the right holes to let the M62 bolt up to my manifold, port the M62 some, and I have the throttle body good to go no adapter plate needed.

The hardest part of this, is finding the right material to make the spacer, and getting the holes just right to somehow bolt it on and drive it with the engine belt, most after that, actually seems pretty easy, other than the spacer to work right, it's about as easy as an M90 top swap, so it seems.


The m62 can spin 17,500 RPM and be fine, plus the intercooler would eliminate any heat and KR issues I'd have with other supporting mods. LIM porting and the stock higher flow 36 heads will help a lot I'm thinking; speaking of which:

Do you have a good idea of at what RPM from idle I'd be making peak torque, and where it'd fall off using the M67 and those mods?

one thought, the m62 can make 10psi/460cfm @ 14000 rpms, I read somewhere that with a 2.8" pulley, you can make up to 12 psi with it in a 3800, when it spins @ 14,000 RPM.

12PSI in a bone stock L67 would make 260 crank horses, right? meaning my higher compression pistons alone, in the L67 block would make 13 extra horses assuming the higher compression was only a 5% power increase, 273 hp. take in the fact that a FWI intake adds maybe 5-10 hp, and the intercooler makes it about 40* colder than a FWI (in the intake manifold after air compression) that's probably 15-20HP, down grade it and say 300 hp already at the crank. given the fact that the M62 has less parasitic effect maintaining lower intake temps, probably at least a 5hp gain from that, 75mm throttle body, ported lower intake manifold, and slightly better stock heads? 10% more VE and power gains, let's call that 20 hp. The fact that the fuel will be atomized better and more efficiently from 12 PSI of colder more dense air being in the intake manifold where my injector bungs are, probably at least another 5hp there hypothetically, but let's go ahead and say 320 crank horses at that point, taking off more power to be fair, and say it just possibly could be 340 crank horses at that point, just from those mods and cheap supporting mods like injectors to go with it


Now if I did a cam, that's potentially another 40 horses, self ported heads could be another 10 horses, and if I did headers and downpipe then that's another 1-20 horses possibly

Let's just say that if I got a cam, and full headers kit and all their supporting mods, self ported my extra L36 heads, plus when I will definitely do to the motor, the stock m62 could potentially put me at 400 crank horses with pretty much no KR at all, and that's by downgrading a lot of my estimations.

considering the only reason I'd be doing go fast mods past 300 crank horses is the fact that it changes the powerband to higher rpm and lower torque, with barely any mods more than what equipment and materials I have, going on moderate boost, I can make 300 crank horses without KR on the M62, more than enough to start making my transmission start to worry it's little ass off frown


So basically, there's really no point in getting an M90 just to have more potential, if it's possible to make what I have work at a lower weight, and basically get a free intercooler out of it.

My pump I have "SOMEWHERE" flows 317GPH, or 125more gallons an hour more flow than the ZZP intercooler pump. It's a 50 PSI brushless motor 12v pump, very low noise.


basically I'm going to take it slow, very slow, and build the intercooler and supercharger kit to mock up perfectly and port the intake and exhaust manifold, and polish, do a little porting of the M62 inlet/outlet, respray teflon on the blades if need be, get any replacment parts I need in it that are worn, possibly re-epoxy it, and then once it all works, then think about putting it in my current running engine. I got nothing but time tongue
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cleaned up the exhaust a bit - Page 5 Empty
PostSubject: Re: cleaned up the exhaust a bit   cleaned up the exhaust a bit - Page 5 EmptySun Jul 22, 2012 9:37 pm

So what I'm thinking of so far is actually, butchering the upper intake manifold of the L36 that's in the shed so that only the bottom few inches is bolted to the LIM, same torque specs and gaskets and everything...but the catch.. I have to fabricate a truely flat deck somehow, holding the heater core of the parts riviera right in between the outlet triangle of the M62 and the very bottom of the upper intake manifold, and basically redirect manifold airflow assembly with the square tubes on the edge, right up to the bottom of the heater core, sealed air tight around the entire heater core, then use the bypass valve opening and route tubing from there, to just inside the new structure that seals up to the IC core and seal that airtight as well. The hardest part of this will be flush mounting it and be completely flat to the supercharger, and keeping the air tight seals up under up to 15+ PSI of pressure. Design has a long way to go but that's my initial idea so far, which would work if done right
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cleaned up the exhaust a bit - Page 5 Empty
PostSubject: Re: cleaned up the exhaust a bit   cleaned up the exhaust a bit - Page 5 EmptySun Jul 22, 2012 10:47 pm

Quote :
The hardest part of this, is finding the right material to make the spacer, and getting the holes just right to somehow bolt it on and drive it with the engine belt, most after that, actually seems pretty easy, other than the spacer to work right, it's about as easy as an M90 top swap, so it seems.
Here is part of the difficulty in this project. You'll probably pay $75-100 just for a piece of billet to make the core. Better know exactly what you're doing and not mess up. That's hard to do without the right tools. If it were my $100 piece of stock, I'd pay a machinist to do it on a mill. Karma could do it.

Quote :
The m62 can spin 17,500 RPM and be fine, plus the intercooler would eliminate any heat and KR issues I'd have with other supporting mods. LIM porting and the stock higher flow 36 heads will help a lot I'm thinking
We don't know how fast you'll need the M62 to spin in order to give you the boost and power you're looking for. It might be higher than you think. You're assuming the untested IC will eliminate your KR. What if it's not enough? Higher flow heads should help if you do them right. Do you know how?

Quote :
Do you have a good idea of at what RPM from idle I'd be making peak torque, and where it'd fall off using the M67 and those mods?
I really haven't a clue. I have never heard of someone doing what you're thinking of doing.

Quote :
12PSI in a bone stock L67 would make 260 crank horses, right? meaning my higher compression pistons alone, in the L67 block would make 13 extra horses assuming the higher compression was only a 5% power increase, 273 hp. take in the fact that a FWI intake adds maybe 5-10 hp, and the intercooler makes it about 40* colder than a FWI (in the intake manifold after air compression) that's probably 15-20HP, down grade it and say 300 hp already at the crank. given the fact that the M62 has less parasitic effect maintaining lower intake temps, probably at least a 5hp gain from that, 75mm throttle body, ported lower intake manifold, and slightly better stock heads? 10% more VE and power gains, let's call that 20 hp. The fact that the fuel will be atomized better and more efficiently from 12 PSI of colder more dense air being in the intake manifold where my injector bungs are, probably at least another 5hp there hypothetically, but let's go ahead and say 320 crank horses at that point, taking off more power to be fair, and say it just possibly could be 340 crank horses at that point, just from those mods and cheap supporting mods like injectors to go with it
This is like climbing into a helicopter and teaching yourself to fly it by randomly pulling on a bunch of levers.

Far too many variables, uncertainties, assumptions, and errors. You can't calculate power based on boost alone - must consider other mods. 12PSI in a bone stock L67 = boom. 12PSI in an intercooled L67 = a bit of extra power in the form of low-end torque. 12PSI in a cammed, port & polished engine with headers + exhaust, and all the other goodies will get you a LOT MORE power because it breaths. Boost will be higher in more restrictive set-ups. Engines that breath have higher mass air flow and lower boost, but yielding more power.

Again, we don't know the M62 has less parasitic loss compared to an M90, nor how much the difference even is. And I believe your assumption the M62 has lower intake temps is incorrect. The VE and fuel atomization is just speculation - they may not give any benefit, or you may get worse results than before. I also don't understand why you are considering different injectors at this point.

You can't just add up mod for mod and come up with a HP number. Every time you change something, the dynamic of the entire system changes. Install a cam, the boost level may go down, and the exhaust headers may give higher gains than they did before. The only way to know how much power you'll have is to attempt the build and then dyno.

Quote :
So basically, there's really no point in getting an M90 just to have more potential, if it's possible to make what I have work at a lower weight, and basically get a free intercooler out of it.
The point of getting an M90 is to be on an established path with predictable results. We know what to expect in terms of HP potential, track times, and reliability, because it's been tested over and over in thousands of cars. We have formulas for success, thanks to the 3800 vendors and hundreds of diehard enthusiasts posting results on forums. THAT'S why it makes sense.

Maybe you'll discover a new path, prove it works, and others will try it, but I doubt it. You're trying to use what you have to save money, and that's understandable, but sometimes it's better to spend money up front so you can rely on the R&D that brought that product to market, especially if you don't have much experience. Otherwise, YOU get to do the R&D, and that makes you the guinea pig. Just something to think about. $2000 turbo kits aren't priced high to rip you off - they're priced that way because they're guaranteed to work.

_________________
'98 SC Riviera • 281k miles • 298 HP/370 TQ • 0-60: 5.79s • ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 • 4087 lb • 20.1 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley • AL104 plugs • 180º t-stat • FWI w/K&N • 1.9:1 rockers • OR pushrods • LS6 valve springs • SLP headers • ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts • MaxAir shocks • Addco sway bars • UMI bushings • GM STB • Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s • F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus • SS lines • Brembo slotted discs • DHP tuned • Aeroforce • Hidden Hitch

^^^ SOLD ^^^ frown

'05 GTO • 85k miles • 0-60: 4.8s • 16.9 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun


'70 Olds Ninety-Eight Holiday Coupe • 116k miles • 455 Rocket V8
Because cool


'95 Celica • 152k miles • 0-60: yes
Because free
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cleaned up the exhaust a bit - Page 5 Empty
PostSubject: Re: cleaned up the exhaust a bit   cleaned up the exhaust a bit - Page 5 EmptySun Jul 22, 2012 11:32 pm

AA wrote:
Quote :
The hardest part of this, is finding the right material to make the spacer, and getting the holes just right to somehow bolt it on and drive it with the engine belt, most after that, actually seems pretty easy, other than the spacer to work right, it's about as easy as an M90 top swap, so it seems.
Here is part of the difficulty in this project. You'll probably pay $75-100 just for a piece of billet to make the core. Better know exactly what you're doing and not mess up. That's hard to do without the right tools. If it were my $100 piece of stock, I'd pay a machinist to do it on a mill. Karma could do it.

Quote :
The m62 can spin 17,500 RPM and be fine, plus the intercooler would eliminate any heat and KR issues I'd have with other supporting mods. LIM porting and the stock higher flow 36 heads will help a lot I'm thinking
We don't know how fast you'll need the M62 to spin in order to give you the boost and power you're looking for. It might be higher than you think. You're assuming the untested IC will eliminate your KR. What if it's not enough? Higher flow heads should help if you do them right. Do you know how?

Quote :
Do you have a good idea of at what RPM from idle I'd be making peak torque, and where it'd fall off using the M67 and those mods?
I really haven't a clue. I have never heard of someone doing what you're thinking of doing.

Quote :
12PSI in a bone stock L67 would make 260 crank horses, right? meaning my higher compression pistons alone, in the L67 block would make 13 extra horses assuming the higher compression was only a 5% power increase, 273 hp. take in the fact that a FWI intake adds maybe 5-10 hp, and the intercooler makes it about 40* colder than a FWI (in the intake manifold after air compression) that's probably 15-20HP, down grade it and say 300 hp already at the crank. given the fact that the M62 has less parasitic effect maintaining lower intake temps, probably at least a 5hp gain from that, 75mm throttle body, ported lower intake manifold, and slightly better stock heads? 10% more VE and power gains, let's call that 20 hp. The fact that the fuel will be atomized better and more efficiently from 12 PSI of colder more dense air being in the intake manifold where my injector bungs are, probably at least another 5hp there hypothetically, but let's go ahead and say 320 crank horses at that point, taking off more power to be fair, and say it just possibly could be 340 crank horses at that point, just from those mods and cheap supporting mods like injectors to go with it
This is like climbing into a helicopter and teaching yourself to fly it by randomly pulling on a bunch of levers.

Far too many variables, uncertainties, assumptions, and errors. You can't calculate power based on boost alone - must consider other mods. 12PSI in a bone stock L67 = boom. 12PSI in an intercooled L67 = a bit of extra power in the form of low-end torque. 12PSI in a cammed, port & polished engine with headers + exhaust, and all the other goodies will get you a LOT MORE power because it breaths. Boost will be higher in more restrictive set-ups. Engines that breath have higher mass air flow and lower boost, but yielding more power.

Again, we don't know the M62 has less parasitic loss compared to an M90, nor how much the difference even is. And I believe your assumption the M62 has lower intake temps is incorrect. The VE and fuel atomization is just speculation - they may not give any benefit, or you may get worse results than before. I also don't understand why you are considering different injectors at this point.

You can't just add up mod for mod and come up with a HP number. Every time you change something, the dynamic of the entire system changes. Install a cam, the boost level may go down, and the exhaust headers may give higher gains than they did before. The only way to know how much power you'll have is to attempt the build and then dyno.

Quote :
So basically, there's really no point in getting an M90 just to have more potential, if it's possible to make what I have work at a lower weight, and basically get a free intercooler out of it.
The point of getting an M90 is to be on an established path with predictable results. We know what to expect in terms of HP potential, track times, and reliability, because it's been tested over and over in thousands of cars. We have formulas for success, thanks to the 3800 vendors and hundreds of diehard enthusiasts posting results on forums. THAT'S why it makes sense.

Maybe you'll discover a new path, prove it works, and others will try it, but I doubt it. You're trying to use what you have to save money, and that's understandable, but sometimes it's better to spend money up front so you can rely on the R&D that brought that product to market, especially if you don't have much experience. Otherwise, YOU get to do the R&D, and that makes you the guinea pig. Just something to think about. $2000 turbo kits aren't priced high to rip you off - they're priced that way because they're guaranteed to work.

Totally understdable, and that's why I was basically chopping off random horsepower numbers where an m90 with same boost would provide those predictable results. By no means am I going to try to have 400 horses, or even care if I'm under 300 horses..if this thing will work, but I'd be happy with 270+ horses at the crank, (easily obtainable if it does work)

What I may do, if the composite is strong enough to seat the supercharger itself using Fiberglass to accomplish my needs, is get an L36 upper intake manifold, and modify it to chop off the top so a few inches is left on the bottom, then redirect the runners going into the intake manifold sealed up to the seating holding the heater core, forcing all of the airflow besides the bypass valve through the intercooler core, and route the bypass valve into the wall of the rest of the runners, and seal that up too. With the intercooler provided it works, intake temps won't really be terrible enough passing through it to melt the upper intake manifold to shit, and I'd be applying some high heat enamel in case on everything to help out a bit on the insides.

cleaned up the exhaust a bit - Page 5 339460_10150961501317169_573874660_o

Here's a retarded diagram I attempted to make in paint.

Basically that's the main idea and placement of the blower, and I'd be kind of butchering a stock L36 upper intake manifold, and making a new seating and allowing the bolt pattern of the M62 to bolt into the the new surface of the newly made upper intake manifold. On the bottom, I'm going to try to make a composite HV insert by use of a resin and release agent, using the top of the LIM as a mold, this should help with the powerband some, if proven sucessful. Basically those orange paths where the runners go into the engine will flow up to and seal up to the edges of the heatercore imbedded in the flat resurfaced top, only couple inches now up from the top of the LIM. Where the yellow triangle is, will be the M62 outlet port, going through the grey area which will be where the IC core will be sandwiched into a composite spacer, which will flow through the runners on the bottom of the upper intake manifold, as smooth an air transition as possible. Refabricating the manifold won't be easy, but I have no need to get it done instantly, and patience/looking at other options will always pay off.

Luckily, I have a lot of hood clearance to make this work with as much space as I need pretty much, and although I know MANY people will say my intake manifold will melt to shit, the intercooler core, provided that it works, will cool the air charge to be colder than a stock L36 intake anyway. (another assumption that could end up melting my manifold, causing a coolant leak, and hydro-locking my engine, I know)


and actually a better idea is to butcher the plastic shit one in the shed, as proof of concept, then when I know I have a working design, grab an aluminum L26 upper intake manifold, and use that for a way more sturdy option in metal for my needs, that will not melt at all.

Oh and http://shop.zzperformance.com/store/p/502-L67-32-to-L36-26-Intake-Conversion.aspx

Basically I'd hope to obtain somewhat similar results, provided my setup would somehow work.

Some good news : I found a perfect heat shield and TB housing for my NACA duct idea earlier, which made me pretty happy

Edit: and if I do fail, I learn a lot, and then I sell the M62 to some colbalt SS dude, possibly some stupid honda guy for like $250-300, keep the 75mm TB, make an adapter plate, and save up for an M90 proper top swap

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PostSubject: Re: cleaned up the exhaust a bit   cleaned up the exhaust a bit - Page 5 EmptyMon Jul 23, 2012 2:13 pm

FYI: The gen 3 and 4 m62 is not the same as the much later gen M62 used on the cobalt SS engines. So I'd push for selling to a honda guy if/when you try and sell it. Be sure to tell them that its easy to change input rotation direction on eaton blowers by putting the rotor pack in backwards.(No joke, this is true.) Since honda engines spin the other direction. All it takes is drilling new alignment holes which some have even been successful in doing with a hand drill.

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PostSubject: Re: cleaned up the exhaust a bit   cleaned up the exhaust a bit - Page 5 EmptyMon Jul 23, 2012 5:31 pm

Not a bad idea, and if I give up..I even have two friends that would love boosting their Honda engines

And I'm not gunna lie, I'd love to see my friend's RSX supercharged razz
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PostSubject: Re: cleaned up the exhaust a bit   cleaned up the exhaust a bit - Page 5 EmptyTue Jul 24, 2012 2:46 pm

Haha, my friend really wants to buy the M62 off of me to boost his shitty Honda R18 motor in his base Civic.

Which means, if I fail, I have a guaranteed buyer happy
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PostSubject: Re: cleaned up the exhaust a bit   cleaned up the exhaust a bit - Page 5 EmptyFri Jul 27, 2012 1:34 am

Okay so, I kinda wish I knew where the hell to find the lower and upper intake manifold off of a Commodore VS L36 version of the 3800 Series II


cleaned up the exhaust a bit - Page 5 Done%203

cleaned up the exhaust a bit - Page 5 Half%20done


As you can see, if I could somehow find these intake manifolds for cheap, it would be extremely easy to fabricate that to fit the M62, and use the upper intake manifold itself as the intercooler spacer, just by bolting on some aluminum sheet metal, with the heater core bolted on inside of the actual upper intake manifold, then make the other holes for things like the bypass valve, and for mounting the M62 supercharger itself, block off the stock throttlebody with a simple plate, then make the engine belt drive the M62 and the computer to work with it.


I really wish all L36 intake manifolds were set up like that.
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PostSubject: Re: cleaned up the exhaust a bit   cleaned up the exhaust a bit - Page 5 EmptyFri Jul 27, 2012 9:18 am

If I had to guess, Australia. There are some Aussie 3800 vendors if you look around. I'm sure they can get these parts, or tell you where to look. The Rollmaster timing chain I had installed on my engine came from down under.

_________________
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PostSubject: Re: cleaned up the exhaust a bit   cleaned up the exhaust a bit - Page 5 EmptyFri Jul 27, 2012 9:57 am

Check out the Commodore forums if you want one.(THough shipping from AU is balls.) Though that will stick up through your hood a huge amount. The aussie LIM it actually pretty tall, and add to that the airbox, and then a SC... Also you need to think of the leverage and force the SC belt will be making on such a tall arrangement. With the m62 you will need to be running a pretty small SC pulley so the belt loading is much higher than the m90, that force will be acting on the SC casing, and at full boost will be transitining to your join of the SC to the aussie airbox, then to the aussie LIM, then to your heads. Lots of failure and stress points to a pretty high shear point. (If that makes any sense.) Add to that trying to manage the PCV system and vac routing to get to the aussie LIM from the m62... its a good amount of work.

Not trying to be a downer, just outlining some things that will be encountered. (I am all for trying something new and different.)

For ease of going SC, a normal top swap to m90 would be the most effective route, and the easiest to measure gains and potential cost. Though pricey from your current standpoint.

For cheapest cost and most power, just do a turbo. The cross-over on the 3800 is easy to modify or just get the ZZP one and find yourself a properly sized turbo. You can build up to this with what you already have by porting the LIM, heads, look into getting the L26 UIM to hold boost, and mock up the turbo layout and exhaust routing with the spare engine on a stand. Turbo also negates all the other money spending hidden costs needed with SC of custom fabrication, different heads, messing with a TB, custom intercooler, and the future transmission work you would need to do to not blow up. The turbo is better on your non-HD transmission, much cheaper to implement, has less hidden costs, is more "for sure to succeed", easier to intercool, has tons of future potential, you have more than half the things you need already, and will still be something very unique and different. (The first turbo 8th gen riv.) Thats the route I'd go IMO and I've got a prototype machine shop, done custom work on the l36, series 2 l67, and more custom m62 work than most anyone on the Internet.

Anyway, thats my 2c. Whatever you decide to work on, us on rivperformance will help however we can.

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PostSubject: Re: cleaned up the exhaust a bit   cleaned up the exhaust a bit - Page 5 EmptyFri Jul 27, 2012 12:58 pm

Corey. I actually almost purchased a Holden manifold on the GP forums for my turbo GTP. The guy only wanted $325 for it, but I passed. Seemed like more of a hassle than it was worth since some modification was required(coolant hose etc). I decided to stick with the L36/HVIII top swap. You have some interesting ideas and I'm curious to see what you end up doing!
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PostSubject: Re: cleaned up the exhaust a bit   cleaned up the exhaust a bit - Page 5 EmptyFri Jul 27, 2012 1:03 pm

AA wrote:
If I had to guess, Australia. There are some Aussie 3800 vendors if you look around. I'm sure they can get these parts, or tell you where to look. The Rollmaster timing chain I had installed on my engine came from down under.

I spent about 10 hours so far researching a site like ZZP that would sell the intake manifold units themselves for a similiar price to ours, like $100 a manifold unit, and I couldn't find ANYTHING. I emailed serveral car junk places, waiting on replies. the only complete manifold set I found that wasn't something crazy like a super custom $1000+ fabbed dual throttlebody setup was an Australian ebay link from a guy that wanted pick up only, and I sent him a message seeing if it can somehow be shipped to me (His listing goes for $50, which I'd gladly pay) Not sure how much shipping is, or how I'd get that done, but I think my options on that are looking pretty dim.

Karma wrote:
Check out the Commodore forums if you want one.(THough shipping from AU is balls.) Though that will stick up through your hood a huge amount. The aussie LIM it actually pretty tall, and add to that the airbox, and then a SC... Also you need to think of the leverage and force the SC belt will be making on such a tall arrangement. With the m62 you will need to be running a pretty small SC pulley so the belt loading is much higher than the m90, that force will be acting on the SC casing, and at full boost will be transitining to your join of the SC to the aussie airbox, then to the aussie LIM, then to your heads. Lots of failure and stress points to a pretty high shear point. (If that makes any sense.) Add to that trying to manage the PCV system and vac routing to get to the aussie LIM from the m62... its a good amount of work.

Not trying to be a downer, just outlining some things that will be encountered. (I am all for trying something new and different.)

For ease of going SC, a normal top swap to m90 would be the most effective route, and the easiest to measure gains and potential cost. Though pricey from your current standpoint.

For cheapest cost and most power, just do a turbo. The cross-over on the 3800 is easy to modify or just get the ZZP one and find yourself a properly sized turbo. You can build up to this with what you already have by porting the LIM, heads, look into getting the L26 UIM to hold boost, and mock up the turbo layout and exhaust routing with the spare engine on a stand. Turbo also negates all the other money spending hidden costs needed with SC of custom fabrication, different heads, messing with a TB, custom intercooler, and the future transmission work you would need to do to not blow up. The turbo is better on your non-HD transmission, much cheaper to implement, has less hidden costs, is more "for sure to succeed", easier to intercool, has tons of future potential, you have more than half the things you need already, and will still be something very unique and different. (The first turbo 8th gen riv.) Thats the route I'd go IMO and I've got a prototype machine shop, done custom work on the l36, series 2 l67, and more custom m62 work than most anyone on the Internet.

Anyway, thats my 2c. Whatever you decide to work on, us on rivperformance will help however we can.

The reason above was why I was really thinking against a composite manifold for my purpose. And I really amp considering straight up selling that M62, and going for a Holset HX52, or HX45 (whatever is cheaper) instead. But, that Aussie intake manifold looks REALLY sturdy, I mean look how thick it is, and I think it may be made of steel, or read on someone's car build that it was. Also from the looks of it, it kind of looks like it would be about the same space as the thicker intercooler insert for the L67 manifold, if I basically took that curved plate off, and mounted the M62 on it, with the heatercore I have laying around mounted inside the space int he upper intake manifold as an intercooler? If I somehow could find that aussie manifold, intercooling would be easy as cutting a top plate for it and mounting the M62 on top, with the heatercore inside, then using a block off plate for the stock throttlebody, 90% of my fab work would be done for me already, other than what you mentioned, and moving coilpacks, some other odds and ends, assuming the M62 would fit on top of it in my hood :o

Also, I seriously doubt I'd be needing a pulley much smaller than it already has, because I'm not trying to push more than 300 hp at the crank, does that help me at all with the stress on the manifold?

The good thing is, I'm not in an immediate hurry for getting it all done instantly, which is the beauty of having that other 3800 in the shed.

I'm kind of curious as to why turbo is less likely to blow up my transmission though, wouldn't a turbo application be more volatile and unpredictable than a "vastly underpowered 4banger supercharger"? People everywhere on the internet say the M62 has way less power than the M90 (maybe silly)

Also, what would a cleaned up used Gen III M62 be worth used, if I were to sell it? razz

Selcouth wrote:
Corey. I actually almost purchased a Holden manifold on the GP forums for my turbo GTP. The guy only wanted $325 for it, but I passed. Seemed like more of a hassle than it was worth since some modification was required(coolant hose etc). I decided to stick with the L36/HVIII top swap. You have some interesting ideas and I'm curious to see what you end up doing!

Was that recently? And thanks smile

Just seems mostly like a waste when I have a supercharger already to do an L67 top swap, and luckily if I try to make my M62 work, I can get my step dad to help with random things like small modifications like coolant hoses, moving coilpacks and such. He worked on these engines for a decade, so he knows everything in and out way better than me, lol.

Also, it really pisses me off to have a motor capable of over 500 crank horsepower with the stock bottom end, and having less of a market to modify it than a crappy 1.6L Ricey 4banger motor that would explode from that much power without a full stage 3 rebuild frown

Granted, some 4bangers are better than my motor, like the 4G63T, arguably the K20, and some other ones here and there, lol
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PostSubject: Re: cleaned up the exhaust a bit   cleaned up the exhaust a bit - Page 5 EmptyFri Jul 27, 2012 1:23 pm

Corey,
Yes that was about a month or two ago. GlazerGTX was selling it and it started at $450 and then worked his way down. One of the other turbo guys scooped it up. Honestly man, a L67 top swap just seems more work than its worth. However, if your step pops is willling to lend a hand and its something you really want to do then go for it. As stated before though you'd be better off going with a turbo setup. The potential is endless! I laughed at your market comment cause it's so true and sucks big time!
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PostSubject: Re: cleaned up the exhaust a bit   cleaned up the exhaust a bit - Page 5 EmptyFri Jul 27, 2012 1:29 pm

Quote :
I spent about 10 hours so far researching a site like ZZP that would sell the intake manifold units themselves for a similiar price to ours, like $100 a manifold unit, and I couldn't find ANYTHING.
Well, no, you aren't going to find it as cheap. But it does exist. See if this site has anything close to what you're looking for:

Mace Engineering Group

_________________
'98 SC Riviera • 281k miles • 298 HP/370 TQ • 0-60: 5.79s • ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 • 4087 lb • 20.1 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley • AL104 plugs • 180º t-stat • FWI w/K&N • 1.9:1 rockers • OR pushrods • LS6 valve springs • SLP headers • ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts • MaxAir shocks • Addco sway bars • UMI bushings • GM STB • Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s • F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus • SS lines • Brembo slotted discs • DHP tuned • Aeroforce • Hidden Hitch

^^^ SOLD ^^^ frown

'05 GTO • 85k miles • 0-60: 4.8s • 16.9 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
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PostSubject: Re: cleaned up the exhaust a bit   cleaned up the exhaust a bit - Page 5 EmptyFri Jul 27, 2012 1:46 pm

Selcouth wrote:
Corey,
Yes that was about a month or two ago. GlazerGTX was selling it and it started at $450 and then worked his way down. One of the other turbo guys scooped it up. Honestly man, a L67 top swap just seems more work than its worth. However, if your step pops is willling to lend a hand and its something you really want to do then go for it. As stated before though you'd be better off going with a turbo setup. The potential is endless! I laughed at your market comment cause it's so true and sucks big time!

Good to know about that manifold smile

And, I wouldn't be doing a simple L67 top swap, seeing that I have an M62, not the M90, so a little bit of fabbing would be required, which makes the option of turbo more appealing every time I think about it, lol

And yeah, take a look at this:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/FULLY-CNC-Honda-VTEC-Head-B16-Series-Performance-Aluminum-Cylinder-Head-NEW-/170803960450#vi-content


You can get a full set of ALUMINUM fully CNC'd cylinder heads for other "more marketable" cars, for the price of pretty much reconditioning our crappy cast iron cylinder heads, which they pretty much just smooth out the casting.. Am I the only one that thinks that's screwed up, given our engine potential, and how many people modify the Grand Prix? Aluminum heads for us cost, what, 2-3 grand? If we had heads at that price, so many people would be buying them that they'd be making more money off them than they do now, most likely.


AA wrote:
Quote :
I spent about 10 hours so far researching a site like ZZP that would sell the intake manifold units themselves for a similiar price to ours, like $100 a manifold unit, and I couldn't find ANYTHING.
Well, no, you aren't going to find it as cheap. But it does exist. See if this site has anything close to what you're looking for:

Mace Engineering Group

That's a reverse plenum and different than the stock one though, and they don't sell the lower intake to go with it, unless I'm missing something? tongue


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PostSubject: Re: cleaned up the exhaust a bit   cleaned up the exhaust a bit - Page 5 EmptyFri Jul 27, 2012 2:43 pm

Quote :
I'm kind of curious as to why turbo is less likely to blow up my transmission though, wouldn't a turbo application be more volatile and unpredictable than a "vastly underpowered 4banger supercharger"? People everywhere on the internet say the M62 has way less power than the M90 (maybe silly)

Also, what would a cleaned up used Gen III M62 be worth used, if I were to sell it?

Turbo is way easier on the transmission because the boost ramps up slightly slower than with a positive displacement SC. Its that 1000 RPM boost that is *really* hard on our transmissions. Even with a properly sized turbo where you won't have that much spool up time, that is all the transmission needs. Your launches will be better because traction off the line is easier, and your transmission will be happy cause the car is already moving forward a bit before the boost kicks in.

And its not that the m62 has way less power, a supercharger doesn't have any power in of itself. Its just sized for an engine just a tiny bit smaller than the 3800. Since the displacement of the blower is less it has to spin faster to make the same boost. This results in more heat than an m90 blower pushing the same boost on the same engine. Heat and parasitic drag aside, and with the same boost on the same engine, the m62 would actually slightly outperform an m90 due to hitting peak boost sooner and not having to overcome as heavy SC rotors. But I digress...

If you could sell that sucker for 150$ you would be doing well.(I know they seem like they should sell for more, and there is always someone trying to sell it for more, but its an old blower and its application is pretty limited. So unless you find a sucker or are willing to have it up for sale for a long time...)


As far as your project, anything looks easy if you say it fast enough. I've got enough experience in custom fabricating things to know its never "that" easy even with all the professional tools available. Turbo will be your best bang for the buck, less headache, faster, faster to make, easier on the transmission, "no" parasitic drag on the engine, and more suited to what you have and the parts you already have. Its win win win.

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