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c0reyl
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c0reyl

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PostSubject: Re: cleaned up the exhaust a bit   cleaned up the exhaust a bit - Page 4 EmptyMon Jul 16, 2012 1:41 pm

deekster_caddy wrote:
My only concern with your new intake plan is what you are going to do when driving in the rain. Otherwise, the fresher your air, the better.

when it rains, the rain won't really get in the intake anyway, for the same reasons that a ram air intake on a corvette, or mustang won't be affected. unless a puddle of a couple inches or more gathers in my heat shield, (which won't happen, and I'll check every time it rains), my engine won't get hydrolocked.

denim wrote:
When you say, "go supercharged," do you mean upgrading engines? Unless I'm wrong (it happens a lot smile , the L36 is quite different than an SC.

internally besides injectors being in the actual heads on the L67 whereas they are in the LIM (lower intake manifold) on the L36, I believe they are the same? I'd have to change intake manifolds to do a top swap anyway, and I'd use a Gen 5 supercharger for lower temps, more efficiency and lower KR (most important) anyway.

But, all of these mods will happen before I ever decide to supercharge:

-Fix up that intake

-180* tstat (160 would be for summer if I boosted

-new spark plugs ( NGK TR6ix probably)

-new throttlebody and spacer (possibly a northstar TB) The heat shield will try to shield the throttlebody as much as possible as well, but I'd have to look more into throttlebodies and how cheap options are, luckily a northstar TB can be had easily from a junkyard, northstar cadilacs are everywhere)

-new downpipe, ubend delete, resonator and cat delete (straightpipe to the dual exhaust, I have no emmissions)

-new rockers and valvesprings (I have a small engine tick anyway)

-new motor mounts

-anywhere a bottleneck can be found for a cheap upgrade to improve flow will happen
_____________________________________________________________




This is the probable stopping point.

-I'd cam the engine, valvespring retainers before boosting

-porting manifolds would happen before boosting, heads would too if it wasn't so expensive

-probably new headers, and injectors before boosting

THEN maybe, I might boost it, but I expect at least 40-50 horsepower gains at the stopping point, depending on how effective the intake system is.


Do you guys know how much volumetric efficiency I'll gain from ubend delete, new downpipe, cat delete and straightpipe to the dual exhaust?

Also, how much would headers give me, if you know? headers are damn expensive though frown

By the way, Gen 5 will be used, which has at least 15% more efficiency as well as lower intake temps, which robs less power, and has less KR.

if I did supercharge, it would be carefully, and little boost at a time, with a modular pulley kit to see where the KR begins with higher compression ratio.
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c0reyl
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PostSubject: Re: cleaned up the exhaust a bit   cleaned up the exhaust a bit - Page 4 EmptyMon Jul 16, 2012 1:53 pm

denim wrote:
Aye Mate, but I thought there is a difference in the bottom end. No?

I was under the impression that other than injectors being in the LIM on the L36, and in the heads themselves on the L67 (known to cause cracking before 1998 models, I believe) that they were pretty much the same beyond the intake manfolds?


EDIT: after doing more thinking, I realized that if I cam the engine, it makes the rockers kind of pointless, so I'll pretty much have to decide between rockers and valvesprings vs. a cam, valvesprings, retainers and new hydraulic lifters, and probably a new timing chain would be needed as well. about an extra $200 of supporting mods.


I like the idea of camming more, especially because of more gains for not much more cost but the question is, will it mess with supercharging? Anyway, I'm guessing with the intake setup, and most of those mods and a cam, I'd be sitting at maybe 260-270 crank horses if I'm lucky, rockers I think would give me maybe 240-250, but it's too hard for me to speculate, either way is cheaper than supercharging, giving me at least almost as much power as any stock L67.

It's kind of too hard to tell what power a cam would give me, and I'm not sure what to do about tuning yet, but I at least have a solid plan of what to do for the next few months :p

I actually think those numbers could be on the low side, because of higher compression ratio pistons. There are NA setups pushing close to 250 wheel horses on a decent cam, so I'm thinking because I'm not trying to get much past 300 horses, like ever in this car anyway, I might as well start with moderately cheap engine flow, go for cam or valvetrain before boosting, and then if I want more power, think about boosting.


Last edited by c0reyl on Mon Jul 16, 2012 2:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Karma
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PostSubject: Re: cleaned up the exhaust a bit   cleaned up the exhaust a bit - Page 4 EmptyMon Jul 16, 2012 2:49 pm

It would depend on the cam. If you know that you WILL supercharge, just make sure you don't pick up a NA cam. Get a blower cam, it will still be a gain on NA and sets you up for the future.

A couple things.
-A new TB and adapter might be wasted money if you intend to go GenV, as the GenV has a slightly different TB connection than the gen3. No sense in buying two. Though the N*could be reused.
-If you swap heads before going forced induction, you can get plugs for the injector holes, then you only spend money once on the heads.
-You will be hard pressed to find a u-bend on the Riviera. We don't have one.

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c0reyl
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PostSubject: Re: cleaned up the exhaust a bit   cleaned up the exhaust a bit - Page 4 EmptyMon Jul 16, 2012 2:59 pm

Karma wrote:
It would depend on the cam. If you know that you WILL supercharge, just make sure you don't pick up a NA cam. Get a blower cam, it will still be a gain on NA and sets you up for the future.

A couple things.
-A new TB and adapter might be wasted money if you intend to go GenV, as the GenV has a slightly different TB connection than the gen3. No sense in buying two. Though the N*could be reused.
-If you swap heads before going forced induction, you can get plugs for the injector holes, then you only spend money once on the heads.
-You will be hard pressed to find a u-bend on the Riviera. We don't have one.

That's great to know about the plugs, and I'd only go for aluminum heads tbh, porting my heads can't be justified for the price. and I thought the riv had the same exhaust as the grand prix :o

dealing with the TB, that far down the road, I wouldn't care about new adapters, because I'm assuming I can get at least close to 270 crank horses on an NA setup (more than enough for me) especially if I cam it.

Brb while I try to find more info on our downpipe, because Iv'e been reading mostly about the grand prix, where all the 3800 info is pretty much :o

other than the adapter, is the Gen V going to be more of an issue, and would I still need an L67 lower intake manifold, or would I need an L32 LIM for that? it gets kind of confusing for that.


Edit:

http://shop.zzperformance.com/store/p/273-Pacesetter-Headers.aspx

This seems pretty well priced to me, but would that downpipe work for me?

Also, I'd be sending them my downpipe, and cat, and they give me a $50 coupon for the next zzp purchase, making it even less pretty much, which is pretty useful overall.

Which means, most of the big ticket items being headers, cam and it's supporting mods would only cost me around $850 total in parts, and probably put me closer to 270+ crank horses, not even using boost, and remember, a gen 3 does rob power with the heat caused, and adds a lot of weight, L36 riv curb weight is only 3690 pounds, and I have alloy wheels, which are a little lighter than stock as well. I think I could easily get in mid 14's with under a grand on an NA setup, which is faster than I really need anyway.

And I'm not expecting to do all those mods at once, or expect to slap a few things on my engine and go as fast as a corvette :p

Edit:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/GM-BUICK-PONTIAC-OLDSMOBILE-SUPERCHARGER-THROTTLE-BODY-3800-MAF-M90-1996-2004-3-/390379221559?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item5ae46a3237&vxp=mtr#ht_500wt_1413

Found L67 throttlebody for $60 which is super cheap for the power gain. This MAF will work with my wire harness, correct?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Cadillac-Northstar-Throttle-Body-with-sensors-OEM-1997-1998-1999-97-98-99-/190599929138?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2c60a41d32&vxp=mtr#ht_600wt_1389

Holy crap a northstar TB is only $30!!

I need to find what else I'd need to get that TB to work on my car :o

edit again: northstart TB is probably overkill for any NA setup, so to use an L67 TB on my L36 do I need an adapter at all?

Also,

http://www.pontiacbonnevilleclub.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=3795&start=40

Found this useful thread, and apparently it's one of the best mods you can do to an L36, and if I screw up, it's like only $100 for a ported manifold anyway


After looking all day, I think 250 crank horses is actually the best I'd get from all that, maybe less. Power gains don't seem to be as linear as I thought, but then again, I'm not trying to make a drag car, and it would be kind of retarded not to eliminate KR before boosting an L36 anyway, but the beautiful thing is once you have all those supporting mods, it makes huge power with barely any boost, without chipping pistons.

But, as long as I can get under a 14.7 1/4 time with that mod list, I'm happy. I got kind of screwed from the moment I had an NA 3800 lol.
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c0reyl
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PostSubject: Re: cleaned up the exhaust a bit   cleaned up the exhaust a bit - Page 4 EmptyTue Jul 17, 2012 11:29 pm

Holy crap, I just found like the only pic I have of my car before any mods :o

cleaned up the exhaust a bit - Page 4 189213_10150254400657169_7565280_n

My step dad owns a towing company, and he towed it to save gas from us both going the same place lol.

People definitely turned heads at an 18 ft long giant buick being towed by that little wrecker bounce


Looks a lot different now (look at sig), doesn't it? shoot


Edit:

cleaned up the exhaust a bit - Page 4 121d

Here's a better look at my $50 alloys I got off creigslist with a lame fake chrome finish lolol gavel
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PostSubject: Re: cleaned up the exhaust a bit   cleaned up the exhaust a bit - Page 4 EmptyWed Jul 18, 2012 12:06 am

Looks really nice Corey! Now paint my exhaust and tail-lights for me. Haha.

But honestly, when it comes down to it, only the Block, crank, and cam are the same between the L67 and L36. Most everything else internally and externally is different.
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c0reyl
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PostSubject: Re: cleaned up the exhaust a bit   cleaned up the exhaust a bit - Page 4 EmptyWed Jul 18, 2012 12:13 am

I thought other than the heads having the injector bungs in the L36 where the L67 has it in the heads, beyond the lower intake manifold, they were the same block :o


And, if I were near you, I'd spend a day and help you paint provided beer, and grilled meat razz

I never thought I'd love tinting these lights as much as I do, makes the car get so much more attention for the $75 I spent on the exterior of this car :o
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Mattwa
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PostSubject: Re: cleaned up the exhaust a bit   cleaned up the exhaust a bit - Page 4 EmptyWed Jul 18, 2012 12:34 am

Same block and crank are the same, yes. Not much else is though.
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PostSubject: Re: cleaned up the exhaust a bit   cleaned up the exhaust a bit - Page 4 EmptyThu Jul 19, 2012 11:51 pm

Corey,
Can you direct me to the scoop you show from Vivid Racing. I've looked around their site, but can't find anything like it.
Thanks
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c0reyl
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PostSubject: Re: cleaned up the exhaust a bit   cleaned up the exhaust a bit - Page 4 EmptyFri Jul 20, 2012 2:57 am

denim wrote:
Corey,
Can you direct me to the scoop you show from Vivid Racing. I've looked around their site, but can't find anything like it.
Thanks

http://www.vividracing.com/catalog/performance-universal-carbon-fiber-naca-duct-p-99089.html?utm_source=googlebase&utm_campaign=googlebase&utm_content=89965
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denim
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PostSubject: Re: cleaned up the exhaust a bit   cleaned up the exhaust a bit - Page 4 EmptyFri Jul 20, 2012 9:32 am

Thanks, Corey. Vivid has a huge amount of products available. I'm looking for something similar to that scoop.
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c0reyl
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PostSubject: Re: cleaned up the exhaust a bit   cleaned up the exhaust a bit - Page 4 EmptyFri Jul 20, 2012 4:47 pm

denim wrote:
Thanks, Corey. Vivid has a huge amount of products available. I'm looking for something similar to that scoop.

No probelms, glad I could help.

Wasn't expecting people to actually like that idea of mine lmfao
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c0reyl
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PostSubject: Re: cleaned up the exhaust a bit   cleaned up the exhaust a bit - Page 4 EmptySat Jul 21, 2012 2:43 am

Update:

There is an L36 that was in my mom's Bonneville which had a lower intake manifold that leaked coolant into the oil, and I think blew a bearing somewhere which needs a full rebuild. My step dad said I could pretty much have the engine to rebuild.


If the block integrity is fine, I'm willing to rebuild the entire damn engine part by part, instead of making my already reliable L36 a Guinea pig. If the block is screwed, I'll use the heads, and try porting them myself as best as I can (which I will do either way) and I'd also port the exhaust manifold of that block instead of mine, so I could essentially not care if I screwed up either part. TBH: I'm not willing to spend a grand or more for just porting the heads of my engine. I AM willing to practice on the 4G37 block in my eclipse which is worthless at the moment, then if I get comfortable doing it, trying on my mom's old L36 block which needs a rebuild anyway, and if the heads are in working order after the port, I will rebuild the rest of the engine if it's not compromised. I'm pretty damn sure the block is fine anyway.

Anyway, the plan so far is pretty much that, and if the head porting goes without too much of a hitch, then I will plan on fully rebuilding that block from the ground up, using L32 powdered rods for sure, lower compression forged pistons, if the L36 pistons aren't in good working order as well. Plans, if I will do a full rebuild will be:

- Mildly DIY ported heads (I realize it won't be stage 4 amazingness, but even just smoothing out the rough casting and working on exhuast porting a little will probably increase the flow of the heads at least 10% (pretty damn big deal)

- Forged rods (L32)actually are cheap; forged pistons, if stock are damaged at all, which I doubt is the case.

- probably chemically cleaning the cylinder walls, new piston rings and trying to sand the cylinder walls to a mirror finish (will help eliminate carbon build up and reduce KR) However, porting the heads and whatnot will be 100 grit finish because it will create air pockets for actually a better flow than mirror finish

- 160* tstat for summer, 180* for winter

- upgraded injectors

- full gasket kit, plus other tidbits like waterpump, bearing and other stuff for full rebuild

- Assuming head porting goes well, I will get the best possible cam that will max out stage 1 heads (I'm thinking stage 2 cam maxed to 6800 rpm would probably work, assuming the heads port went okay)

- Clear durable vinyl coolant hoses, polished valve covers, wrapped headers, custom oil cap,and other odds and ends for fit and finish

- new valvetrain and LS7 lifters, double timing chain set, new injectors

- Headers and 3" downpipe (no cat, I have no emissions)

- 75mm throttlebody conversion

_______

All of that above, I'm thinking will increase volumetric efficiency at least 20% from stock. I know for a fact that a mildly ported LIM, an L67 throttlebody, and mildly ported exhaust manifold is a 10% VE increase, and I know the L37 has about 73% VE stock

- I would prefer to find a gen 5 SC from a junkyard and do a top swap, but I am open to any kind of effective boost that fits the bill

-A tune, shiftpoints and whatnot raised (my tranny came from an L67 car, is a replacement, I'm sure it will be fine)

-probably lots of small things I missed here and there

Engine and SC will be painted with heat resistant paint to look as clean as possible.



Also, I'm not expecting this engine will be done super fast, but I'm just really happy that my L36 is not a guinea pig, and the fact I have this engine to mess with basically changed my mind to go all out on the engine build, which will definitely take months, probably over a year to finish completely, also, block busted means my plans are changed to only head porting, but I'm pretty damn sure the block, and most likely the internals are fine.


Soo, yeah..either way, I'm super excited that I don't have to compromise driving my car to do slow upgrades part by part now, also, if me porting the heads fails (I will practice on my 4g37 engine block first by the way) then I will get a nearby CNC shop to quote on the price and see if I can get a good deal, but I'm pretty damn sure I can do a mild port from all the reading on it Iv'e done, and guides, it looks very time consuming, but doable, and like I said, I realize it is mostly smoothing and polishing the rough casting smooth and bowl porting the valves, some exhaust porting, and whatnot, but I would be doing even more research before actually trying, and I'll find out pretty quick on the worthless engine block whether or not I'd fail instantly.


And, by the way, my step dad is a master mechanic who has restored many cars, and even WWII airplanes, so anything I don't know, he will most likely know, and he's going to help with the rebuild, which is awesome.


I'm expecting at best, maybe 300 wheel horses from all of those mods, if I'm lucky. it's hard to tell before stuff starts getting done, but I'd be happy with less to be honest. This will be a project that will be on and off work for over a year most likely, stuff to do instead of me gaming or researching about pointless things on my computer lol.


EDIT:


A route I'm seriously considering is turbo instead of SC. I read I could probably use the stock upper intake manifold from the L36, and I could buy a ported lower intake manifold replacement for about $100, and considering:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/HX40W-diesel-Turbo-Charger-/120672916353?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item1c18aa9381&vxp=mtr#ht_1096wt_1189

Not sure if link will be up for long, but an HX40W Cummins turbo is said to be capable of 63 lb per minute airflow which is 920 cfm, maxxed should push over 700 crank hp. this is way more boost than I'd ever need, and it spools really fast, because deisels rev pretty damn slow.

Normally, I'd say hell no to that idea, but the idea is really growing on me, and that turbo is so damn cheap, that it might actually be cheaper to turbo it with a bit of custom fabrication to some headers, if I can find the intercooler cheap enough.

I mean seriously...used m90 units off ebay are like $600+ most of the time.. seems kind of like a steal, but there could be factors I missed, and I wouldn't be nearly maxxing that turbo out, or have any lag whatsoever...then again, it seems too good to be true..

Something to keep in mind: only a consideration, and I'd be running low enough boost to have no KR whatsoever, basically it'd be like 3.2 pulley size or whatever my supporting mods permit, and variable geometry turbos have pretty much no lag.
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Mattwa
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PostSubject: Re: cleaned up the exhaust a bit   cleaned up the exhaust a bit - Page 4 EmptySat Jul 21, 2012 9:27 am

Weren't you the person that told me a turbo is a bad idea, no way, never do it on a Riv, no no no? razz

The m90 is easy if you already have it, but going turbo is for those who want serious power.
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PostSubject: Re: cleaned up the exhaust a bit   cleaned up the exhaust a bit - Page 4 EmptySat Jul 21, 2012 11:11 am

Just a few more things to consider (it seems you're considering quite a lot right now):

There's a reason porting and polishing heads costs big bucks - they can verify results on a flow bench. You can practice on the Eclipse heads to see how much work it involves, but you won't be able to verify. You'll see some gain; you just won't know how much. 10% seems reasonable. You might get lucky and see 15%. Or 5%.

If you plan to rebuild the engine yourself, read a book on it first. If you don't have the factory service manuals, there is some good instruction on engine overhaul. Like you said, research, research. Having your step dad there for help is a huge plus!

Forged rods might be "cheap", but forged pistons aren't. Figure $500-700 for those.

I vote against the 160 t-stat. If the ambient temp ever goes below about 65º, and your cooling system is working correctly, a funny thing happens in some Rivieras: the knock sensors stop working. This can be programmed out with a tune, but at that point, you have control of the fans, so you can keep coolant temp between 175-185ºF at all times. Save 160 t-stat for trips to the drag strip.

The turbo idea: your approach is good. Running with minimal boost is the right idea. Our 3800 N/A has decent low-end torque, and should be able to push this turbo without much lag. I think there are some VW guys using similar size turbos (or that one) with the 2.8L VR-6.

I'd consider an intercooler with the turbo set-up. Low boost, but it still runs hot. Mazda put an IC on their SPEED turbo engine running only 6 PSI.

Last thing: KR isn't based on boost level alone. You can see knock with zero boost, or zero knock with 15 PSI. Don't assume you're safe at a certain boost level until you also factor in static compression (9.4:1 for L36), ign timing, and A/F ratio. Again, an IC helps here. But I get what you're saying about keeping boost on the low side to help keep KR down.

Good luck with your plan. I'm looking forward to seeing the build. Although I personally don't want a turbo for my car, I can appreciate a well-done turbo on the Riv. The way you're approaching this, the car won't be a race-only machine. It'll have good throttle response, and should work great as a 250-300 WHP daily driver. That's plenty power for a Riviera, imo.

_________________
'98 SC Riviera • 281k miles • 298 HP/370 TQ • 0-60: 5.79s • ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 • 4087 lb • 20.1 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley • AL104 plugs • 180º t-stat • FWI w/K&N • 1.9:1 rockers • OR pushrods • LS6 valve springs • SLP headers • ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts • MaxAir shocks • Addco sway bars • UMI bushings • GM STB • Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s • F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus • SS lines • Brembo slotted discs • DHP tuned • Aeroforce • Hidden Hitch

^^^ SOLD ^^^ frown

'05 GTO • 85k miles • 0-60: 4.8s • 16.9 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
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c0reyl
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PostSubject: Re: cleaned up the exhaust a bit   cleaned up the exhaust a bit - Page 4 EmptySat Jul 21, 2012 1:32 pm

Mattwa wrote:
Weren't you the person that told me a turbo is a bad idea, no way, never do it on a Riv, no no no? razz

The m90 is easy if you already have it, but going turbo is for those who want serious power.

Not quite, but yours is already supercharged :o

And, I never realized you could have such a powerful turbo for so cheap at $150 for a Cummins turbo, the rest of the turbo setup can be had and/fabricated to the engine probably cheaper and just as easily as an L67 top swap. If I already had an L67, I'd be aiming for "cheap, go fast mods" in my case, I can't really cut corners like that, which in some ways is actually a blessing.

AA wrote:
Just a few more things to consider (it seems you're considering quite a lot right now:(

There's a reason porting and polishing heads costs big bucks - they can verify results on a flow bench. You can practice on the Eclipse heads to see how much work it involves, but you won't be able to verify. You'll see some gain; you just won't know how much. 10% seems reasonable. You might get lucky and see 15%. Or 5%.

If you plan to rebuild the engine yourself, read a book on it first. If you don't have the factory service manuals, there is some good instruction on engine overhaul. Like you said, research, research. Having your step dad there for help is a huge plus!

Forged rods might be "cheap", but forged pistons aren't. Figure $500-700 for those.

I vote against the 160 t-stat. If the ambient temp ever goes below about 65º, and your cooling system is working correctly, a funny thing happens in some Rivieras: the knock sensors stop working. This can be programmed out with a tune, but at that point, you have control of the fans, so you can keep coolant temp between 175-185ºF at all times. Save 160 t-stat for trips to the drag strip.

The turbo idea: your approach is good. Running with minimal boost is the right idea. Our 3800 N/A has decent low-end torque, and should be able to push this turbo without much lag. I think there are some VW guys using similar size turbos (or that one) with the 2.8L VR-6.

I'd consider an intercooler with the turbo set-up. Low boost, but it still runs hot. Mazda put an IC on their SPEED turbo engine running only 6 PSI.

Last thing: KR isn't based on boost level alone. You can see knock with zero boost, or zero knock with 15 PSI. Don't assume you're safe at a certain boost level until you also factor in static compression (9.4:1 for L36), ign timing, and A/F ratio. Again, an IC helps here. But I get what you're saying about keeping boost on the low side to help keep KR down.

Good luck with your plan. I'm looking forward to seeing the build. Although I personally don't want a turbo for my car, I can appreciate a well-done turbo on the Riv. The way you're approaching this, the car won't be a race-only machine. It'll have good throttle response, and should work great as a 250-300 WHP daily driver. That's plenty power for a Riviera, imo.

That's pretty much my thoughts, and I'd never turbo a car without at least an air-air intercooler, i'd get an air-water if I could rated for 1000 CFM with at least a 3.5" inlet, outlet, while that's overkill, I'd rather have a little extra potential on the IC side, that could max out the turbo if it wanted, keeping the intake temps cool no matter what. Forged pistons wouldn't happen unless the stock pistons in the block were already damaged, which is a low chance, and stock L36 pistons are proven to work at 500+crank horses (I won't need nearly that much power)


Something else I realize is I will have to pick between a blown setup or turbo by the time the cam is in my hands, as lift duration's are different for the two, because intake valves can not overlap on a turbo cam, correct me if I'm wrong on that. one thing I'm not sure of is would the intercooler keep the turbo boost as cold as a blown non IC setup? Also, I never would have to worry about pulley sizes with an electronic boost gauge. proper blow of valve will be essential to keep the turbo safe, and I'd be looking a while for the right cool-down setup to keep engine running for a few mins to cool down after ignition is off (fuel pump resistor might have to be deleted for that?)

Also, it seems to be the case that L36 heads actually flow slightly more than the L67, and I would be able to use the stock L36 upper intake manifold for the turbo setup, I don't know how damaged the LIM is on that block, but if it's okay, porting that won't be too hard. biggest thing to be careful of while porting heads, I understand is to actually not remove a lot of material at once while doing the actual porting, and to go from one port to the next or valve or what have you, to make them as even as possible, but I don't think I'm going for much more than smoothing out the rough casting and opening the exhaust and valves a bit.


All in all, I think done right, the turbo setup can be just as streetable as any SC setup, and I'd be running lower boost than I could handle for the most part, keeping it tame. 350whp should be very reliable with those mods, and 300whp would be tame enough to daily drive I'm thinking. anyway..just options to consider at this point joy
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AA
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PostSubject: Re: cleaned up the exhaust a bit   cleaned up the exhaust a bit - Page 4 EmptySat Jul 21, 2012 1:46 pm

Sounds good, keep in mind the stock tranny will likely give up the ghost with 300-350 WHP if you have any fun with it. That can get expensive, and it's not a DIY job for most. Nothing wrong with a 250 WHP car for DD, and the transmission might just take the abuse.

_________________
'98 SC Riviera • 281k miles • 298 HP/370 TQ • 0-60: 5.79s • ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 • 4087 lb • 20.1 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley • AL104 plugs • 180º t-stat • FWI w/K&N • 1.9:1 rockers • OR pushrods • LS6 valve springs • SLP headers • ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts • MaxAir shocks • Addco sway bars • UMI bushings • GM STB • Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s • F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus • SS lines • Brembo slotted discs • DHP tuned • Aeroforce • Hidden Hitch

^^^ SOLD ^^^ frown

'05 GTO • 85k miles • 0-60: 4.8s • 16.9 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun


'70 Olds Ninety-Eight Holiday Coupe • 116k miles • 455 Rocket V8
Because cool


'95 Celica • 152k miles • 0-60: yes
Because free
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c0reyl
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PostSubject: Re: cleaned up the exhaust a bit   cleaned up the exhaust a bit - Page 4 EmptySat Jul 21, 2012 2:01 pm

AA wrote:
Sounds good, keep in mind the stock tranny will likely give up the ghost with 300-350 WHP if you have any fun with it. That can get expensive, and it's not a DIY job for most. Nothing wrong with a 250 WHP car for DD, and the transmission might just take the abuse.


Good point., given that though, the HX40W is probably overkill, and I'd be looking more at the HX35 (which spools much faster), which means I can go even cheaper on the build.



And I'd be very happy pushing 250 as a DD. Also, on lower boost, wouldn't the turbo actually make my car more fuel efficient by atomizing and reusing fuel, so all of the fuel is burnt?

I guess either way, I'd want to do tranny work before going past 250whp for a reliable build, making either SC or turbo more than enough, and assuming motor built as above, the motor would far exceed the tranny, so I would probably be better off doing the cheaper/more available build, meaning I should find my cheapest boost source before building the motor, and build it to that?
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AA
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PostSubject: Re: cleaned up the exhaust a bit   cleaned up the exhaust a bit - Page 4 EmptySat Jul 21, 2012 3:44 pm

Using the HX35 sounds like a great idea, for the reasons you've mentioned. Everyone wants a bigger turbo, so they can potentially make more boost in the future, after they replace their engine internals, transmission, etc. I think that day often never comes. If you know what you want to do right now, you can plan accordingly. I'd do that.

HD trans helps, but it does not mean the entire unit is bulletproof. The diff is strong though - you prob won't have to worry about it if you drive responsibly.

250 WHP can push you into high 13 sec 1/4 mile territory. That might not seem that fast, but trust me, it is. Back in the late '60s, when muscle cars ruled the earth, high 13 sec times were respected, and they still should be. Yes, a new Vette can run 11s. That's not fast, it's insane. Yes, I want that, but I certainly don't need it.

I would argue in defense of the blower when it comes to parasitic losses. While it's true that a blower requires about 40-50 HP to add 100 HP at WOT (turbo is more efficient here), when at low RPM cruise, many folks don't understand that the power to turn the blower, belts, and pulleys is under 1HP, because there's no load (boost). A turbo takes less to push at low RPM, but it works as a restriction in the exhaust. The blower has a bypass. So I would argue the blower is actually more fuel efficient, which explains the almost unbelievable hwy MPG numbers some have seen. Can it be done with a turbo? Don't know, but I think Eaton figured out something great with the m90 roots blower with regard to fuel efficiency vs. power adding.

_________________
'98 SC Riviera • 281k miles • 298 HP/370 TQ • 0-60: 5.79s • ET: 13.97 @ 99.28 • 4087 lb • 20.1 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:30
3.4" pulley • AL104 plugs • 180º t-stat • FWI w/K&N • 1.9:1 rockers • OR pushrods • LS6 valve springs • SLP headers • ZZP fuel rails
KYB GR2 struts • MaxAir shocks • Addco sway bars • UMI bushings • GM STB • Enkei 18" EV5s w/ Dunlop DZ101s • F-body calipers
EBC bluestuff/Hawk HP plus • SS lines • Brembo slotted discs • DHP tuned • Aeroforce • Hidden Hitch

^^^ SOLD ^^^ frown

'05 GTO • 85k miles • 0-60: 4.8s • 16.9 avg MPG • Nelson Ledges Lap: 1:26
Because fun


'70 Olds Ninety-Eight Holiday Coupe • 116k miles • 455 Rocket V8
Because cool


'95 Celica • 152k miles • 0-60: yes
Because free
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Mattwa
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PostSubject: Re: cleaned up the exhaust a bit   cleaned up the exhaust a bit - Page 4 EmptySat Jul 21, 2012 9:37 pm

Aaron, I agree about fuel economy vs. power adding for the M90. A turbo 3800 does not get good gas mileage, however I wouldn't be building a turbo 3800 for fuel economy anyway. The efficiency is so much higher with a Turbo in high boost levels.

If you don't mind, here is a few pictures of the Holset He351VE Turbo that I really want to use on a 3800. Bought it for $150. happy Pretty nice condition too as far as I can tell. It has variable exhaust vanes, so no need for a wastegate.
cleaned up the exhaust a bit - Page 4 IMG_20120624_143346
cleaned up the exhaust a bit - Page 4 IMG_20120624_143451
cleaned up the exhaust a bit - Page 4 IMG_20120624_143507


You can buy a ready made flange that bolts a T4 flange to the rear outlet of the factory exhaust. I'll take a guess that wouldn't work very well in a Riviera, but that works REALLY well in a 3800 Fiero. smile This is a turbo that can make over 500WHP on a 3800. That would kill a 4T65e-HD without a very expensive build up, but I wouldn't have as much of an issue with the 5-speed manual (getrag F23) I swapped in my said 3800 Fiero. The problem would be finding a clutch that would hold....
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c0reyl
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PostSubject: Re: cleaned up the exhaust a bit   cleaned up the exhaust a bit - Page 4 EmptySun Jul 22, 2012 12:20 am


AA wrote:
Using the HX35 sounds like a great idea, for the reasons you've mentioned. Everyone wants a bigger turbo, so they can potentially make more boost in the future, after they replace their engine internals, transmission, etc. I think that day often never comes. If you know what you want to do right now, you can plan accordingly. I'd do that.

HD trans helps, but it does not mean the entire unit is bulletproof. The diff is strong though - you prob won't have to worry about it if you drive responsibly.

250 WHP can push you into high 13 sec 1/4 mile territory. That might not seem that fast, but trust me, it is. Back in the late '60s, when muscle cars ruled the earth, high 13 sec times were respected, and they still should be. Yes, a new Vette can run 11s. That's not fast, it's insane. Yes, I want that, but I certainly don't need it.

I would argue in defense of the blower when it comes to parasitic losses. While it's true that a blower requires about 40-50 HP to add 100 HP at WOT (turbo is more efficient here), when at low RPM cruise, many folks don't understand that the power to turn the blower, belts, and pulleys is under 1HP, because there's no load (boost). A turbo takes less to push at low RPM, but it works as a restriction in the exhaust. The blower has a bypass. So I would argue the blower is actually more fuel efficient, which explains the almost unbelievable hwy MPG numbers some have seen. Can it be done with a turbo? Don't know, but I think Eaton figured out something great with the m90 roots blower with regard to fuel efficiency vs. power adding.

Hmm, well, as far as the turbo idea as of now, It's not happening anymore. Too bad, because I really started to like that idea sick

Why? Well, my step dad bought yet ANOTHER Riviera today. A 95' Supercharged rivvy with engine issues, that will be used to scavenge the following parts for my riv:

- Gen 3 M90 roots blower

- L67 Throttle body (needs a new MAF because it's craked, not a big deal)

- 2nd belt items

- Very good condition dark blue leather interior

- new steering wheel with radio controls

- new electric windows switch (mine has cracked and missing buttons)

- new gauge cluster (mine is broken)

- New hood in same exact color as mine (my hood is corroded to shit)

- new trunk lining (mine is worn out)

few other odds and ends, and other parts will go to my step dad's supercharged rivvy.


So basically, for the $550 he paid, that was a damn good deal for the top swap parts, plus other parts I needed and a full interior as well. I'm not going to just fix that engine and drop it in, because the 95 buicks had vacuum modulated transmissions and is not compatible with my car, and I make more power with a top swap anyway as long as I'm a little careful about KR.


A point I just realized...Top swapping alone and a few mods here and there maxes out my transmission anyway, making a full motor build entirely pointless :/
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RidzRiv
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PostSubject: Re: cleaned up the exhaust a bit   cleaned up the exhaust a bit - Page 4 EmptySun Jul 22, 2012 12:26 am

The 95 supercharged comes with a gen 3 m62
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PostSubject: Re: cleaned up the exhaust a bit   cleaned up the exhaust a bit - Page 4 EmptySun Jul 22, 2012 12:35 am

RidzRiv wrote:
The 95 supercharged comes with a gen 3 m62

Uh ohhhh.

Damnit, I knew something was screwed up when I saw a super small pulley, I was like WTF, this isn't a 3.8" pulley..

does this mean I can't swap the supercharger on my L36?
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Mattwa
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PostSubject: Re: cleaned up the exhaust a bit   cleaned up the exhaust a bit - Page 4 EmptySun Jul 22, 2012 1:23 am

c0reyl wrote:
RidzRiv wrote:
The 95 supercharged comes with a gen 3 m62

Uh ohhhh.

Damnit, I knew something was screwed up when I saw a super small pulley, I was like WTF, this isn't a 3.8" pulley..

does this mean I can't swap the supercharger on my L36?

Nope. And you wouldn't want to, it's not nearly as good as an M90. 95's had the series 1 3800, 96+ Rivs had the Series 2. Pretty much a completely different engine. So no, the supercharger or intake manifold will not fit.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.
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c0reyl
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PostSubject: Re: cleaned up the exhaust a bit   cleaned up the exhaust a bit - Page 4 EmptySun Jul 22, 2012 1:28 am

Mattwa wrote:
c0reyl wrote:
RidzRiv wrote:
The 95 supercharged comes with a gen 3 m62

Uh ohhhh.

Damnit, I knew something was screwed up when I saw a super small pulley, I was like WTF, this isn't a 3.8" pulley..

does this mean I can't swap the supercharger on my L36?

Nope. And you wouldn't want to, it's not nearly as good as an M90. 95's had the series 1 3800, 96+ Rivs had the Series 2. Pretty much a completely different engine. So no, the supercharger or intake manifold will not fit.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

Ehh, either way I can't bitch about it. I guess the turbo idea is still up for debate going HX35 turbo possibly.

But, with all the goodies I'm stripping out the interior, and the hood, it was worth the monies anyway.

What about the throttle body? I think it's still bigger than my L36 TB, can I at least use the throttlebody or no?
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