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 More non-start - my Riv's specialty!

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albertj
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PostSubject: Re: More non-start - my Riv's specialty!   Mon Mar 19, 2018 1:13 am

Jack the R wrote:
I thought that was for non-insulated. How do you do blue-yellow-red non-insulated?

Umm, no.

This is one of the reasons you want to go crimp some connectors to get familiar with the tool.

The first undulation in the crimp area on your tool is for the blue connectors. They are typically 22 ga. or so. The next, which faces the opposite way, is for the yellow, I think 18-20 or so. The next is for the red, I think 14-16 ga. or so. The next after that is for uninsulated connectors, and the largeish kinda o shaped one at the bottom is for ignition terminal crimping.
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Jack the R
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PostSubject: Re: More non-start - my Riv's specialty!   Tue Mar 27, 2018 4:03 am

albertj wrote:


The first undulation in the crimp area on your tool is for the blue connectors. They are typically 22 ga. or so. The next, which faces the opposite way, is for the yellow, I think 18-20 or so. The next is for the red, I think 14-16 ga. or so. The next after that is for uninsulated connectors, and the largeish kinda o shaped one at the bottom is for ignition terminal crimping.






Are you sure? Looking at the tool -



It says "10" next to the yellow dot, "16" next to the blue dot, and "18" and "22" next to the red dot.

On the stripper end of the tool, "10" is the biggest gauge and that matches the yellow wire I have to reconnect. Than, as the wire size gets progressively smaller, the numbers increase from 10 to 22.

That matches the connectors I've got. The yellows are for the biggest diameter wire, blue is medium, red is smallest.

I'm still not sure about the order of the undulations, but I think, working from the hinge to the handle, it may be blue-red-yellow, than non-insulated, than ignition wire.

At any rate, I've now got the Safelok removed and the Riv's wires stripped. I haven't been able to get a red connector to crimp onto the tiny orange and green wires, although it appears as if the red connector should be good for wires as small as 22 gauge. The orange and green wires can't be smaller than 18. I believe I was using the wrong part of the tool to crimp, because I was breaking the insulation, but even with breaking the insulation I wasn't able to get a hold on the wire. I'll try it again in a few hours when it's light out.

I'm not going to be able to get the two ends of the yellow wire back together, so I'll have to insert another piece of 10 gauge to connect them. Incidentally, the Safelok used 12 gauge wires to tap into the Riv's 10 gauge yellow wire. Apparently that worked although it seems like the mismatch would cause a problem.
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albertj
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PostSubject: Re: More non-start - my Riv's specialty!   Tue Mar 27, 2018 12:48 pm

Your read on the dots is correct, I mis-read the picture you posted.

Your read on the undulations is also correct.

I reiterate getting some scrap wire and inexpensive connectors to practice crimping.
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Abaddon
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PostSubject: Re: More non-start - my Riv's specialty!   Tue Mar 27, 2018 5:50 pm

Personally, I don't like that style of crimp tool. The crimp sections are designed to "re-shape" both sides of the connector. While oblonging (my new word) one side, they put pressure directly in the center of the other side. This breaks the insulation, or at the very least, makes it thin to the point that when you apply heat to it, the thin point separates and makes a hole. This, in turn, makes you think that you're squeezing too hard, so then you back off the pressure. Viola! The insulation is still intact, but now the connector just fell off when you let it go.....

The style that we use (at the shop), applies pressure to the connector evenly on both sides, basically just crushing the terminal to a smaller diameter. Those pliers that I posted a link to (which is what's in my toolbox) work on every size connector, right down to the small red ones.
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PostSubject: Re: More non-start - my Riv's specialty!   Tue Mar 27, 2018 7:43 pm

albertj wrote:


I reiterate getting some scrap wire and inexpensive connectors to practice crimping.

I've been practicing with the Safelok's wires. I still can't get a crimp on the little orange and green Riv wires though, even if i break the insulation.
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Jack the R
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PostSubject: Re: More non-start - my Riv's specialty!   Tue Mar 27, 2018 7:49 pm

Abaddon wrote:
Personally, I don't like that style of crimp tool. The crimp sections are designed to "re-shape" both sides of the connector. While oblonging (my new word) one side, they put pressure directly in the center of the other side. This breaks the insulation, or at the very least, makes it thin to the point that when you apply heat to it, the thin point separates and makes a hole. This, in turn, makes you think that you're squeezing too hard, so then you back off the pressure. Viola! The insulation is still intact, but now the connector just fell off when you let it go.....

The style that we use (at the shop), applies pressure to the connector evenly on both sides, basically just crushing the terminal to a smaller diameter. Those pliers that I posted a link to (which is what's in my toolbox) work on every size connector, right down to the small red ones.

I haven't been able to get a crimp with my tool on the red and green wires. They look like they're 16 gauge, but at the same time the hole in the red gauge looks to big. Maybe I can crush it down to where I get a connection on two sides of the wire, but I don't see getting an even crimp from all sides that squashes the wires down into octagons. Even so, I believe the bigger blue connectors are for the ones that are supposed to be used with 16 gauge wire, and I can't see that working at all.

I'm up for buying a better crimping tool, but if I'm buying a new tool it seems like I should go for a ratcheting crimp tool instead?
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PostSubject: Re: More non-start - my Riv's specialty!   Wed Mar 28, 2018 2:01 am

Abaddon wrote:
The link below is the exact set I use. I'm showing you for reference only. There are many different kinds out there, but you can see the difference between the 2 crimp styles.
https://www.channellock.com/product/909/


I went ahead and ordered these. American made ratcheting crimpers are seriously expensive, so I'm assuming the Chinese ones are junk. Or maybe they're fine for as few times as I'd use them, but I don't feel like rolling the dice.

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PostSubject: Re: More non-start - my Riv's specialty!   Wed Mar 28, 2018 8:32 am

The only time I use a ratcheting crimp tool is when I have to replace a pin inside of a connector. We have 4 sets of special tools from SPX that will make every GM pin in every connector. I'd be broke if I was required to buy em....

Aside from different styles of wire strippers, we all pretty much have the same crimp tool. Whether they're Snap-On, Matco, Channel-Lock, etc. They're all the same (probably made in the same factory).
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PostSubject: Re: More non-start - my Riv's specialty!   Thu Mar 29, 2018 12:22 pm

Jack the R wrote:


Abaddon wrote:
The link below is the exact set I use. I'm showing you for reference only. There are many different kinds out there, but you can see the difference between the 2 crimp styles.
https://www.channellock.com/product/909/




I went ahead and ordered these. American made ratcheting crimpers are seriously expensive, so I'm assuming the Chinese ones are junk. Or maybe they're fine for as few times as I'd use them, but I don't feel like rolling the dice.



Wise move, seriously. Remember to practice.
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Jack the R
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PostSubject: Re: More non-start - my Riv's specialty!   Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:06 am



Well this is different. It looks like there is one notch for crimping all three sizes of insulated crimps, and one notch for non-insulated crimps.
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Abaddon
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PostSubject: Re: More non-start - my Riv's specialty!   Mon Apr 02, 2018 9:21 am

That is correct. Larger terminals will only crimp so far, the smaller red ones, you squeeze until the pliers are "closed". Try em out on a few terminals/wires happy
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PostSubject: Re: More non-start - my Riv's specialty!   Tue Apr 03, 2018 9:20 pm

I'm pleased to report that the operation was a success. I practiced quite a bit with the crimp tool before putting the Riv back together. One problem I noticed was that the yellow connectors crushed out over the blade part of the crimp tool, cutting the insulation. I had to grind about 3/16" off each blade to stop that. Also, the blue connectors really do work on the 16 gauge wire, although it looks like the blue connector is much too big. I guess the extra thickness of the blue connector wall makes the difference. I couldn't get any crimp with the red connector on the 16 gauge wire.

Thanks for everyone's help!
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Abaddon
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PostSubject: Re: More non-start - my Riv's specialty!   Thu Apr 05, 2018 2:14 pm

yay Good to hear!

....or read lol
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stan
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PostSubject: Re: More non-start - my Riv's specialty!   Thu Apr 05, 2018 8:54 pm

Good..... 😀
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PostSubject: Re: More non-start - my Riv's specialty!   Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:08 am

Jack the R wrote:
Am I the only one on the board who's had to replace the starter relay?
I can say that in 19 years of my car life I've never seen failed relay. Not just starter relay - any.

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albertj
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PostSubject: Re: More non-start - my Riv's specialty!   Thu Apr 19, 2018 1:23 pm

DeepFrozen wrote:


Jack the R wrote:
Am I the only one on the board who's had to replace the starter relay?


I can say that in 19 years of my car life I've never seen failed relay. Not just starter relay - any.



I've had them, seen two typical cases. One case is the relay has burned out contacts - it clicks but the contacts are corroded so there is no, or intermittent, electrical continuity on the controlled circuit.

Another case I've had is the relay coil burns out and/or becomes weak, won't close the contacts.

Most often I've seen burned out contacts when the relay contacts are undersized or an engineering tradeoff was made that reduces longevity. If the circuit being controlled is high enough energy, the metal on the relay contacts will ablate from one contact to the other as they spark/arc during make and/or break. If the environment is humid enough and the relay is vented, or was sealed and the seal broke, corrosion will mess up the contacts.

I have seen coils fail, less often. Typically on circuits where a continuous relay was supposed to be used and an intermittent style one was used instead. On the intermittent style unit, the coil winding may not be suitable for being energized for the needed duration. For a highway car you're looking at at least an hour energized no kidding but probably should spec for 4 to 6 or more. Granted, 6 hours can still be called intermittent.

I doubt anyone's read this far, *but* if so and you're interested, there's a good write-up on automotive relays, focused on safety, at this Omron LINK. It lists fairly exhaustively what engineers need to be aware of for specifying relays for a given application, and in doing so lets you see for yourself where they might/do cut corners (ya think?!?).


Last edited by albertj on Sat Apr 21, 2018 5:42 am; edited 1 time in total
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AA
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PostSubject: Re: More non-start - my Riv's specialty!   Fri Apr 20, 2018 3:43 am

Nice move obtaining a proper crimp tool like albertj recommended, and the image Jack the R posted. I bought a similar tool a few years back and it has made my wiring jobs so much easier and less stressful.

Here's the one I use: http://www.kleintools.com/catalog/crimpingcutting-tools/crimping-and-cutting-tool-connectors





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Jack the R
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PostSubject: Re: More non-start - my Riv's specialty!   Fri Apr 20, 2018 10:29 pm

DeepFrozen wrote:

Jack the R wrote:
Am I the only one on the board who's had to replace the starter relay?

I can say that in 19 years of my car life I've never seen failed relay. Not just starter relay - any.


I've only seen these two.

I wonder if infrequent use has anything to do with it?
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albertj
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PostSubject: Re: More non-start - my Riv's specialty!   Sat Apr 21, 2018 5:51 am

AA wrote:
Nice move obtaining a proper crimp tool like albertj recommended...



I think Abaddon posted the tool, I did some hectoring about getting practice, good thing is it all worked out.
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