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 More non-start - my Riv's specialty!

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Abaddon
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PostSubject: Re: More non-start - my Riv's specialty!   Fri Mar 09, 2018 5:33 pm

Follow the wires.....They're all part of that stupid Theft thingy prolly
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PostSubject: Re: More non-start - my Riv's specialty!   Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:52 pm

Abaddon wrote:
Follow the wires.....They're all part of that stupid Theft thingy prolly

Referring to the white one under the glovebox? It's a Riviera wire. I cut it a few years ago - IIRC cutting it is supposed to deactivate some part of the Riviera's brain that has a tendancy to fail and cause a non-start.
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PostSubject: Re: More non-start - my Riv's specialty!   Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:11 pm

For future reference, I'm going to link to my previous non-start threads.  Here's one -

1
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albertj
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PostSubject: Re: More non-start - my Riv's specialty!   Mon Mar 12, 2018 5:16 pm

Jack the R wrote:
Tonight we have numbers -

Battery without + cable attached - 12.5 v

Battery with + cable attached - 12.04 v

Battery + cable @ starter solenoid - 11.8-12.2 v

Ignition wire (purple wire) @ solenoid, with key in start position - 0 v

12 v was applied to the ignition wire and the car cranked.

It looks like the ignition wire may be the problem as it is very loose and the connection is likely cruddy.  I'll clean it tomorrow and tighten it back down - perhaps the car will start, or perhaps the loose ignition wire will prove to be another problem that was developing and not the one I'm after this time.

...your battery is OK. It *should* start the car. When I am diagnosing/troubleshooting I am looking for 12.2 - 12.6 volts out of the batt, no-load. Voltage will go down as battery ages/weakens. A good "flooded" leadacid battery should measure between 2.25V to 2.27V per cell. Thus, when your no-load measurement is 12.2v or less, typically the battery is 50% toast - on a battery like that if you then measure CCAs you will likely be below the lower limit CCA spec for the car (spec is buried in the service manual somewhere). Spec on the Riv is 450 CCA if I remember right. My experience - in the summer the Riv, in good tune, will start with (substantially) less than that.

...your ig wire in start position measuring 0 v is showing a *dead short*.

I wonder if you have an ig switch issue.

Albertj
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PostSubject: Re: More non-start - my Riv's specialty!   Mon Mar 12, 2018 9:20 pm

albertj wrote:



...your ig wire in start position measuring 0 v is showing a *dead short*.


Is it a dead short if the relay in the Safelok has failed (or is failing)?

The Riviera magically began starting again, so this is an intermittent problem (for now), if that helps with the diagnosis.

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PostSubject: Re: More non-start - my Riv's specialty!   Mon Mar 12, 2018 9:35 pm



I haven't had any luck finding the thread where I was told to cut this white wire under the glovebox to disable the system I can no longer recall the identity of. This was from a few years back. I have a different no-start thread of mine bookmarked, but the link doesn't go anywhere anymore, so maybe it got moved or merged into another thread. If this jogs anyone's memory, feel free to chime in.
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PostSubject: Re: More non-start - my Riv's specialty!   Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:37 am

*dead short* meaning "0" voltage. If there were any voltage present, it would indicate corrosion or something of that nature.

That bundle of mystery wires behind the shrink wrap.....if I were you, I'd take that thing outta there and reconnect all the factory wires back together. It's (obviously) tapped into the Starter Relay circuit (yellow wire).
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PostSubject: Re: More non-start - my Riv's specialty!   Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:45 am

Abaddon wrote:


That bundle of mystery wires behind the shrink wrap.....if I were you, I'd take that thing outta there and reconnect all the factory wires back together. It's (obviously) tapped into the Starter Relay circuit (yellow wire).


I'd love to and probably will, I'm just a little worried that there could be another Safelok component somewhere else in the car.  My thinking is, if this thing is supposed to prevent hot-wiring, it's awfully easy to reconnect the yellow wire and make it possible to hot wire the car again.  So, if I had designed the Safelok, this relay would send a signal to something buried further down in the car.  We still don't know what the green wire the Safelok is tapped into does.  It's just a tap though, so AFAIK the Safelok can't be doing anything to the car through this wire.  I guess the Safelok is just pulling a value from this wire, and I don't need to worry about it, but that's just a guess.


Most likely though I'm making this harder than it is, and if I pull the Safelok out and reconnect the yellow wires, everything will be fine.  scratch
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PostSubject: Re: More non-start - my Riv's specialty!   Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:28 pm

Jack the R wrote:

Abaddon wrote:


You said the CRANK fuse was good, so you should have 12V on C2 as well.



Was the 11.8-11.9 I got on C1 close enough?  It sounds like 12v is what it should be.  My reading was bouncing around a bit so maybe there is a margin of error and it could be 12v, for all I know.




Abaddon wrote:


As for A1, that's what physically energizes the relay to close the contacts on A2 and C1 to start the car. The VATS will ground that circuit, thus completing it. Easy check for this is to plug the relay back in, and backprobe the connector with a DVOM.

We had 'starter relay' stuff in another thread a while back, at that time I think we found RockAuto has it listed as something else, a fan relay, door lock relay, or some such. IIRC the same relay is used in various functions on the car, and it's a Delco D1780C. Maybe Abaddon has/knows/can get the number, I can't get to my fiche ATM. Since it is a common relay, *don't cheap out* get a Denso, Hella, Delco (I think it's a Denso) or other better brand.



DVOM?  You mean DVM, right?  



Abaddon wrote:

So, just at that relay connector, you can diagnose the entire top half of the starting circuit. Fun, eh?
smoke



I think it's pretty cool stuff.  If I'd known all this stuff a couple weeks ago I could have saved myself an $80 tow. bonk

Where can I get the relay from?  Rockauto doesn't have it.  What's involved in changing this thing out?
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PostSubject: Re: More non-start - my Riv's specialty!   Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:05 pm

albertj wrote:


Jack the R wrote:



Abaddon wrote:


You said the CRANK fuse was good, so you should have 12V on C2 as well.





Was the 11.8-11.9 I got on C1 close enough?  It sounds like 12v is what it should be.  My reading was bouncing around a bit so maybe there is a margin of error and it could be 12v, for all I know.






Abaddon wrote:


As for A1, that's what physically energizes the relay to close the contacts on A2 and C1 to start the car. The VATS will ground that circuit, thus completing it. Easy check for this is to plug the relay back in, and backprobe the connector with a DVOM.



We had 'starter relay' stuff in another thread a while back, at that time I think we found  RockAuto has it listed as something else, a fan relay, door lock relay, or some such.  IIRC the same  relay is used in various functions on the car, and  it's a Delco D1780C.  Maybe Abaddon has/knows/can get the number, I can't get to my fiche ATM.  Since it is a common relay, *don't cheap out* get a Denso, Hella, Delco (I think it's a Denso) or other better brand.



DVOM?  You mean DVM, right?  





Abaddon wrote:

So, just at that relay connector, you can diagnose the entire top half of the starting circuit. Fun, eh?
smoke





I think it's pretty cool stuff.  If I'd known all this stuff a couple weeks ago I could have saved myself an $80 tow. bonk

Where can I get the relay from?  Rockauto doesn't have it.  What's involved in changing this thing out?


Looks like you meant to reply and didn't?
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PostSubject: Re: More non-start - my Riv's specialty!   Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:33 am

What I'm getting at is this......

That Safelok key that plugs in....it completes the Ignition circuit to start the car. That's what would prevent hot-wiring. You take that key out, and none of the wires needed to hot-wire go where they're supposed to, hence "hot-wire proof". You really can't diagnose the Safelok, so if you can safely take it out and put the wires back to stock, maybe your problem goes away, maybe it doesn't. If it doesn't, we have a MUCH better chance of solving the problem at hand. Right now, all we know is that you have an intermittent starting concern, and that Safelok device is right smack-dab in the middle of it all.
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PostSubject: Re: More non-start - my Riv's specialty!   Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:55 am

I had a computer problem.  

That starter relay is shown on rockauto.com as a door lock relay on our cars.  Whether you get it from RockAuto or elsewhere, do not cheap out, get a Hella or Denso or Bosch or other decent brand.


Last edited by albertj on Wed Mar 14, 2018 4:47 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: More non-start - my Riv's specialty!   Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:52 am

Abaddon wrote:
What I'm getting at is this......

That Safelok key that plugs in....it completes the Ignition circuit to start the car. That's what would prevent hot-wiring. You take that key out, and none of the wires needed to hot-wire go where they're supposed to, hence "hot-wire proof". You really can't diagnose the Safelok, so if you can safely take it out and put the wires back to stock, maybe your problem goes away, maybe it doesn't. If it doesn't, we have a MUCH better chance of solving the problem at hand. Right now, all we know is that you have an intermittent starting concern, and that Safelok device is right smack-dab in the middle of it all.

I'm planning to pull the Safelok over the weekend when it's raining. I'll try to solder the yellow wire together, unless there is a better way to do it. I assume I only have to unplug the Safelok wires from the taps on the orange and green wires. I'm guessing the taps themselves can stay.

Still no starting problems since it magically began starting again.
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PostSubject: Re: More non-start - my Riv's specialty!   Thu Mar 15, 2018 8:51 am

Jack the R wrote:
I'm planning to pull the Safelok over the weekend when it's raining.  I'll try to solder the yellow wire together, unless there is a better way to do it.  I assume I only have to unplug the Safelok wires from the taps on the orange and green wires.  I'm guessing the taps themselves can stay.


You don't necessarily have to solder the wires back together. Just use a weather-proof shrink "butt" connector.
CONNECTORS
As long as you have the proper crimp tool and don't puncture the coating, those things are awesome. We use them on everything except SIR wiring. Those we actually have to solder.

As for the taps.....I'm weird about em. I would actually take them off, cut the wire right where the tap was, and "install" one of those shrink connectors. This way, there's no question if your connection is good or not.
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PostSubject: Re: More non-start - my Riv's specialty!   Thu Mar 15, 2018 2:14 pm

Abaddon wrote:

Jack the R wrote:
I'm planning to pull the Safelok over the weekend when it's raining.  I'll try to solder the yellow wire together, unless there is a better way to do it.  I assume I only have to unplug the Safelok wires from the taps on the orange and green wires.  I'm guessing the taps themselves can stay.



You don't necessarily have to solder the wires back together. Just use a weather-proof shrink "butt" connector.
CONNECTORS
As long as you have the proper crimp tool and don't puncture the coating, those things are awesome. We use them on everything except SIR wiring. Those we actually have to solder.  

As for the taps.....I'm weird about em. I would actually take them off, cut the wire right where the tap was, and "install" one of those shrink connectors. This way, there's no question if your connection is good or not.

...the thing about the taps is it's easy to use the wrong size for the wires on the small gauges, and the taps themselves although color coded for the gauges of interest in automotive, are about the same physical size. Too small, and they cut so much of the wire that the remaining wire then breaks when flexed. Too large and they don't dig into the insulation enough to make a reliable connection. Dissimilar sized wires to tap -- you're just hosed.
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PostSubject: Re: More non-start - my Riv's specialty!   Thu Mar 15, 2018 9:49 pm

Abaddon wrote:



You don't necessarily have to solder the wires back together. Just use a weather-proof shrink "butt" connector.
CONNECTORS
As long as you have the proper crimp tool and don't puncture the coating, those things are awesome. We use them on everything except SIR wiring. Those we actually have to solder.  


Is this the same thing (bottom right of the box)? - Link

If not, what about these? - Link

I'll get a pic of the the tool I use for crimping, it's probably fine.  

What is SIR wiring?
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PostSubject: Re: More non-start - my Riv's specialty!   Fri Mar 16, 2018 8:25 am

I would use the ones from Ebay, only because they say "hot melt glue" on the inside. The glue actually spits out of the end of the heat shrink once it's shrunk. You know for sure it's good and sealed up. Can't say for sure about the Walmart ones (it doesn't say). But yes, those are the same as what I was referring to.

SIR = Supplemental Inflatable Restraint (Airbags). We solder those wires together because even the slightest change in resistance can alter the performance of the airbag system.

Your crimp tool is probably fine, yes. Just use the part of the tool that says INSUL (insulated), not NON (non-insulated). The INSUL crimp is designed so that you don't pop a hole in the connector insulation, making it a non-insulated connection. In fact, if you look at the pics (bottom of page, Step 3) on that Ebay listing, they've used the wrong part of the tool and popped holes in the connector lol
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PostSubject: Re: More non-start - my Riv's specialty!   Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:58 pm



I don't see an "insulated" part.  Should I get a different tool?
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PostSubject: Re: More non-start - my Riv's specialty!   Sun Mar 18, 2018 12:03 pm

The link below is the exact set I use. I'm showing you for reference only. There are many different kinds out there, but you can see the difference between the 2 crimp styles.
https://www.channellock.com/product/909/

I don't see a "non-insulated" option on the tool you currently have, unless there are some markings on the under side. I suppose you could get creative and make them work. I see a couple of flat spots that could be utilized without breaking insulation.
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PostSubject: Re: More non-start - my Riv's specialty!   Sun Mar 18, 2018 12:40 pm

tool has five crimping landings. Look at the consumer-grade hardware/WalMart crimp on terminals. They are color coded.

The crimp area on the tool Jack the R pictured looks like a sine wave or undulation, that's because the working part of the crimper is on one side then the other depending on the gauge. First is blue, then yellow, then red (increasing gauge as marked on the tool) and then the surface for non-insulated terminals. At the bottom is the area for ignition terminals.

If you have time on your hands, read this:

http://www.instructables.com/id/How-to-Make-A-Quality-Crimped-Joint/

Consider getting some extra materials and doing some practice crimps so you get past any angst about crimpng wires. Done right, crimps are fine.

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PostSubject: Re: More non-start - my Riv's specialty!   Sun Mar 18, 2018 1:26 pm

albertj wrote:


http://www.instructables.com/id/How-to-Make-A-Quality-Crimped-Joint/




O.K., my big take-a-way from that article is to use a ratcheting crimp tool.  I found this guy on eBay - Link - but it has no reviews and I wouldn't mind buying American made, if there is such a thing.  Any recommendations, or should I go with Abaddon's plier-type crimping tool?
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PostSubject: Re: More non-start - my Riv's specialty!   Sun Mar 18, 2018 5:16 pm

Plier type crimp tools work OK.  Ratcheters are better but not better enough to go on safari to capture one.  Your plier-type crimper looks fine, it's just that my hunch is that in order to get past asking all these questions about crimping, it's best for you to get a small container of terminals and crimp 3 or 4 connectors onto some scrap/surplus wire until you get the hang of it.  Sometimes dollar stores have terminals cheap (they may come with a really cheap crimper in the packet), for practice those dollar-store terminals will be fine. I further suspect that you'll figure out that you need to crimp the connector then move the connector slightly in the crimper tool and crimp again, in order to get the connector crushed all the way along the crimp area of the connector, under the plastic jacket (if there is one).  The ratcheting tools won't require that because the working area (the anvil) on the tool is larger by 2-4x and is designed to crimp just the right amount for the respective connector gauge as marked on the tool.  

In summary:

* using  the buttsplice connectors you were recommended by Abaddon would be a very good idea.
* plier type crimp tool will be fine, just *get a little practice* so that the result meets the outcome
described in the article (and so you're not wound so tight about this)
* really, it'll work out fine.

Albertj
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PostSubject: Re: More non-start - my Riv's specialty!   Sun Mar 18, 2018 8:15 pm

I've got more connectors than I could use in ten lifetimes coming, but AFAIK the pliers I have don't have a spot for insulated wires.
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PostSubject: Re: More non-start - my Riv's specialty!   Sun Mar 18, 2018 11:08 pm

The insulated connectors go in the first 3 notches on your tool, counting away from the pivot, blue-yellow-red respectively.
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PostSubject: Re: More non-start - my Riv's specialty!   Mon Mar 19, 2018 12:42 am

I thought that was for non-insulated. How do you do blue-yellow-red non-insulated?
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