magnasteer adjustment not possible

I just thought you guys should know it is not possible to modify the variable-steering feel with a tech 2 scanner as on later G-body cars.

The tech I went to see, who is highly specialized, said the ability to modify the magnasteer settings was added in the following model year (I don't know if he meant 1999 for the riv, 1999 for g-bodies or 2000 g-bodies).

modify to make it faster response? but it only works on 99 rivs, if at all?
too bad we cant swap out the steering colum for something with beter feel. ie not 40 turns lock to lock

On roads around here, I don't want to feel much thru the wheel.

On the wifes 99 Riv.
At low speed and low RPM the steering kinda makes a whine and feels a little funny.

I assumed it was normal and thats what I told the wife but now I am curious if it could be adjusted?

Bert

Bert, this seems to be a fairly common issue. I've read that an upgraded P/S pressure hose "can" alleviate this. I personally don't see this with my Riv though.

OK, wait a minute.

Matthew: My 1998 Riv's steering is ~5 turns lock to lock. Actually, fewer turns than on my Audi. Maybe my column was replaced before I got the car?

General comment on Magnasteer - I think it is a goofy feature. Gee whiz all the Magnasteer does is turn on a servo to reduce power assist while driving at speed. See http://www.cardone.com/English/Club/Products/Steering/Protech/Tech_Bulletins/PT%2020-0024.pdf

for details.

I'm not a mechanic - but seems to me that if they just didn't overboost the power steering in the first place and maybe added a fraction of a degree caster we would not have a need for Magnasteer.

The only issue I had with it was fussing (in a friendly way) at a dealer technician when I had it aligned. The wheels were aligned alright but the rack was not properly centered. So when you drove fast enough to make Magnasteer kick in, the Magnasteer would reduce boost, allowing the car to pull to one side. The technician swore it was aligned, he was right. Said he could not find a problem. Again, he was right - and it took some talking to get him to see it differently. In my lexicon, it was a dynamic systems adjustment issue, not a static mechanical problem. When the power assist was reduced, the steering "centered" by the centering of the rack. With full power assist at lower speeds, didn't happen (at least not as noticeably). In his lexicon, it was the undocumented effect of a "newfangled" system that was a pain for the mechanic and the driver, but "yeah now that I get it I'll fix it, it's just one more thing that's not in the books and it's why I'm paid to be a mechanic." The tricky part was to get him to go beyond looking for a static mechanical problem.

Had a similar-acting problem on a Datsun I used to own, but the issue was actually worn bushings on the strut rods in the front end.

Albertj

ibmoses wrote:

On the wifes 99 Riv.
At low speed and low RPM the steering kinda makes a whine and feels a little funny.

I assumed it was normal and thats what I told the wife but now I am curious if it could be adjusted?

Bert

There was a service bulletin on this see this thread:
Steering shudder, pump or rack noise?

Here is the article I was using as reference Understanding & Servicing Magnasteer, Larry Carley, Brake and Front End, February 2002

that very article wrote:

What’s more, the system can be recalibrated to modify steering feel using a Tech 2 or equivalent aftermarket scan tool. There are three settings: factory, more firm and less firm. Just follow the scan tool prompts and that’s all there is to it.

I have gone to see 2 gm techs, one of them who does nothing but electronics stuff with the tech 2. They both said it could not be done after hooking the car up. After looking into it, the specialist said the feature was added in the next model year. I don't know if 99 riv owners can actually do it or if he just meant subsequent incarnations of the G-platform (like the 2000 Bonneville).

I have been looking into the Magnasteer System as installed on my 1998. It is a stand alone system as far as I can tell (meaning it doesn't report failures to the BCM or PCM) yet there is a Data Link Connector to the system from the OBD2 port. This connection only goes to one of the 2 wires that are run to and from the actual steering rack or Variable Steering Actuator, i.e. the magnets installed in the Rack. Presumably to measure the resistance of the magnet stack as that is one of the criteria for determining if you have a problem. (should be 2 to 3 ohms with power off)
I could not find the above mentioned article But have read and re-read the Description of Operation from the FSM and Mitchell On-Demand.
It is actually a simple system that is supposed to increase the amount of current going to the magnet stack in the steering rack as speed increases and subsequently increasing the steering effort.
It knows all this from the Power Steering Control Module that takes input signals from the PCM for VSS Output (Vehicle Speed Sensor Output) Powered from the HVAC Cont 10 amp fuse and finally two wires that go to the Bi- Directional Magnetic Rotary Actuator (VES) located on / in the steering rack.
VES = Variable Effort Steering (MagnaSteer)
I have become interested in this system as try to adjust the variable effort to something more firm on the Highway, as I find the steering effort to be too amplified.
Curiosly when I disconnect the 2 wire connector at the steering rack and the Variable Steering Actuator, the steering becomes more firm, requiring much more effort, either at slow speeds or highway speeds. This is absolutely contrary to how the system is defined to work.
So, I have purchased another MagnaSteer Module to do some testing on and see if I can somehow make this unit put out more current to the Variable Steering Actuator in the Steering Rack.
I am still puzzled by the systems reaction to being disconnected. No current flow to the magnets should produce full power assist, yet it does just the opposite.
If anyone has done any research on this system and has found out some info that I have yet to discover please share.
Or, maybe I'm the only one that has become interested with trying to increase the steering effort on the highway while maintaining power assist at low speeds.

BTW, This does not apply to our cars as we do not have any electrical connections to the power steering pump.
http://www.cardone.com/English/Club/Products/Steering/Protech/Tech_Bulletins/PT%2020-0024.pdf

Mr.Riviera wrote:

modify to make it faster response? but it only works on 99 rivs, if at all?
too bad we cant swap out the steering colum for something with beter feel. ie not 40 turns lock to lock

Somebody must have ripped out your OE rack., Mine is ~5 turns lock to lock.

While we are on the subject, it would take some doing to put in ajdustable Magnasteer. You'd need the later control box - I am not sure how to interface it with the rest of the car - and you'd need a new version Magnasteer rack.

Albertj

I actually really like the magnasteer system. It makes for a very pleasant driving experience IMHO. Only issue I have is the slight whining at lower speeds, but you know what, it's not enough to bother me or make me want to search for a solution.

Rickw wrote:

I have been looking into the Magnasteer System as installed on my 1998. It is a stand alone system as far as I can tell (meaning it doesn't report failures to the BCM or PCM) yet there is a Data Link Connector to the system from the OBD2 port. This connection only goes to one of the 2 wires that are run to and from the actual steering rack or Variable Steering Actuator, i.e. the magnets installed in the Rack. Presumably to measure the resistance of the magnet stack as that is one of the criteria for determining if you have a problem. (should be 2 to 3 ohms with power off)
I could not find the above mentioned article But have read and re-read the Description of Operation from the FSM and Mitchell On-Demand.
It is actually a simple system that is supposed to increase the amount of current going to the magnet stack in the steering rack as speed increases and subsequently increasing the steering effort.
It knows all this from the Power Steering Control Module that takes input signals from the PCM for VSS Output (Vehicle Speed Sensor Output) Powered from the HVAC Cont 10 amp fuse and finally two wires that go to the Bi- Directional Magnetic Rotary Actuator (VES) located on / in the steering rack.
VES = Variable Effort Steering (MagnaSteer)
I have become interested in this system as try to adjust the variable effort to something more firm on the Highway, as I find the steering effort to be too amplified.
Curiosly when I disconnect the 2 wire connector at the steering rack and the Variable Steering Actuator, the steering becomes more firm, requiring much more effort, either at slow speeds or highway speeds. This is absolutely contrary to how the system is defined to work.
So, I have purchased another MagnaSteer Module to do some testing on and see if I can somehow make this unit put out more current to the Variable Steering Actuator in the Steering Rack.
I am still puzzled by the systems reaction to being disconnected. No current flow to the magnets should produce full power assist, yet it does just the opposite.
If anyone has done any research on this system and has found out some info that I have yet to discover please share.
Or, maybe I'm the only one that has become interested with trying to increase the steering effort on the highway while maintaining power assist at low speeds.

If I am not mistaken the magnets adjust valving via a servo - the servo moves a valve that changes hydraulic boost. If Magnasteer is not actuated the servo is in the least-boost position. This would be parkway/highway dirving. For city driving and parking Magnasteer is "on" and opens the valve to jack up the boost.

The only way I can think of to increase steering effort on the highway would be to put in a 'sport' version of the Saginaw PS pump or maybe use the rebuild kit for one of those pumps to overhaul the Riv's pump. This would modify (cut) boost across the board BUT you'd still have relatively more boost at low speeds.

Albertj

Maybe I just have a problem with my Steering Rack.
If what you say is true, Albert, then there would be no way to test it without knowing what the correct hydraulic pressures should be during different driving maneuver's and speeds. Although none of the technical material I can get on GM's MagnaSteer system suggests any hydraulic boost valves.
Even the systems for the 2000 and up that I researched rely on increasing current to the magnets to increase steering resistance. They do have the capability to adjust the Firmness through the ALDL with a TECH 2 and they also report faults in the system through the EBCM, so you get an SES light when something goes wrong. Still a relatively simple system.

For the 98-99, following the FSM procedure involves only checking the resistance of the magnet stack in the steering rack and voltage in to the Magna Steering Module.
All that checks out OK on my car, yet at highway speeds I don't feel any increased steering resistance.
I have emailed a couple of the EBay vendors that sell Reman Steering Racks to ask if they can supply me with a Non-Magnasteer unit for the Riv, but have not received any return emails.

I might be able to help you on this one but it'll be a couple days - tied up tomorrow and wednesday. I'm almost positve you can put in a non-magnasteer Saginaw rack and dummy out the Magnasteer control line.

On my car the increase in resistance is subtle.

The thing I don't get is, the variable assist racks/pumps htey used to sell did about the same thing. It's almost as if Magnasteer was invented to give yet one more thing to break/become unobtainable after ~10 years.

There should be one that'll work.

albertj wrote:

Matthew: My 1998 Riv's steering is ~5 turns lock to lock. Actually, fewer turns than on my Audi.
Albertj

You must be joking, Albert, my '69 isn't 5 turns... My bone-stock '97 is right around 3 turns.
I suppose a previous owner could've gotten fed up with the touchy highway feel and put a really odd rack in there, but there are only so many that will fit.

And again, I don't think so many people would be wanting more effort on the highway if the dummies at Saginaw hadn't eliminated the variable-ratio when they added the variable-boost! That's what makes these cars so darty at high speed, and if it is possible, that would be what I would look for if I were changing out the rack.

Rick, I found this on a Caddy forum, and it might explain your 'unplugged' results. Depending on your build date, maybe you still have MS1, which adjusts boost both ways, while "MagnaSteer MAGe" only adds resistance. It's also probable that GM didn't bother fitting the enhanced MS to a car it was getting ready to scuttle...


"At zero mph, a negative current of approximately two to three amps flows to the Magnasteer coil. This causes the magnets to repel each other, which in turn allows more deflection in the torsion bar inside the spool valve assembly. This increases fluid flow through the spool valve to the steering gear for maximum power assist when it is needed most.

As vehicle speed increases, current flow to the Magnasteer coil is gradually reduced. At about 45 mph, current flow to the coil hits zero and Magnasteer has no effect on the amount of power assist (which is determined only by the torsion bar and pump flow).

Above 45 mph, the direction of current to the coil is reversed and continues to gradually increase up to a maximum of about three amps at 75 to 85 mph. Reversing the polarity of the coil causes the magnets to attract each other, which has the effect of stiffening the torsion bar. This reduces the amount of deflection in the torsion bar that normally occurs when the wheels are steered and causes an increase in steering effort for better road feel and high-speed steering stability.

In 1998, a second generation "Magnasteer MAGe" system was introduced on some GM vehicles. This version of the system does not use a permanent magnet, but uses a redesigned electromagnet that has one pole mounted on the input shaft and the other on the pinion shaft.

At low speed, there is no current flow through the electromagnetic coil. The level of steering assist depends solely on the calibration (stiffness) of the torsion bar. As speed increases, current flow to the coil is gradually increased up to a maximum of several amps to decrease assist and increase steering effort"

I just checked my '97,...and it's about 3.2 turns.

The steering is WAY overboosted at low speeds. I realize there's not much I can do about this.

I might have the local alignment place check it and make them actually check the caster. If it's lower than 4.5 degrees,..I may add some.

I have never seen an alignment place that charges less than $180 check caster. Yes, the printout may show a caster number,....but almost always that's just a default caster number the alignment machine puts up. It isn't real unless they actually do a caster test.

You can stand across the parking lot and see if they did it. Caster is a hidden parameter. The machine cannot check it by itself like it can toe, camber and thrust-angle. In order to check caster the technitian has to go into a mode on the alignment equipment, and then turn the wheels so many degrees to the left, and then to the right. If you don't see him turning the steering wheel left and right,...he didn't check your caster.

The best way to put "feel" back into the steering is to eliminate the mushy rubber isolators.you will be surprised how different the car feels.

robotennis61 wrote:

The best way to put "feel" back into the steering is to eliminate the mushy rubber isolators.you will be surprised how different the car feels.

so did you use a poly bushing or the stock one? got a part number or source?

No.I used hockey pucks

So then you are talking about the engine and transmission mounts, not the bushings on the rack itself? Isnt there a steering rack bushing somewhere in the column and another isolator on the right side, similar in shape and size as a LCA bushing?

Alot of the vagueness that comes with the Riv steering is atributed to the engine support frame isolator bushings.If you've replaced your rear motor mount you'll know what I'm talking about.
You can experiment if you want.All you have to do is,Remove the two front engine cradle donut isolators,passenger side and driver side.no need to fabricate anything.Take 4 pucks,drill a 3/4" hole in the middle,place 1 puck on the top of the engine cradle and the other on the bottom, sandwiching the engine cradle in the middle,run your stock bolt through the 2 and tighten.do the same for the other side.now do the same for the rear inner isolators,leaving the rearmost isolators alone.take for a test drive.big difference.

Oh,and instead of using the stock isolator washers,if you can find or cut a pice of round steel to match the diameter of the puck,that would be stronger.you can use the stock washer but it will pucker the puck and weaken it leading to cracks in the puck.

sooo... When I do my engine swap and have the cradle apart anyway, you are saying it would be good for me to make some steel bits to replace the rubber bits?