Group Buy: Magnecor R100 Spark Plug Wres

Hello all! I am new to RivPerformance, but am a regular on RegalGS.org.

Myself and Hellfish from RegalGS have been researching spark plug wires in an attempt to bring what we feel is the BEST plug wire available on the market today into the 3800 community. We are trying to organize a group buy in order to offer sets of these wires at an affordable price and would love to extend it to fellow Buick owners at Riviera Performance.

Summary:
Currently, there is no acceptable plug wire available for these cars.

I have found a solution that provides us what I believe is the best possible plug wire for a performance/street or race application, or even for a daily driver.

The wire I have chosen is a 10 mm wire with a 100% silicone jacket and a stainless steel (highly wound) winding. capable of withstanding 700*F sustained or 1200*F for 3 minutes.


Why these wires are better than factory or other wires already common to the market:
Inside your factory spark plug wire is a carbon laden latex material that conducts the ignition pulse to the plug from the coil along the surface of this latex core.

What happens over time is that portions of the carbon burn out (similar to electromigration) and the conductor looks akin to something not unlike Swiss cheese.

Companies that sell spiral core wires with low ohms are trying to take advantage of consumer ignorance! Marketing leads consumers to believe that less OHMS = more spark. In reality, what it means is that there is less linear feet of the expensive spiral wire. Unlike measuring ohms with a 1.5v DC ohm meter, ignition pulses (75,000VDC typical) travel across the outer edge of the spiral windings, and not through them linearly.

These wires have a stainless steel spiral winding with generous amounts of actual wire, which give them a high OHM reading, but allow them to transfer large amounts of energy easily. The conductor itself will be able transmit significantly more energy than stock, require less coil voltage to fire the plug, and could conceivably out last your car. Because of their construction they are both STRONGER and MORE FLEXIBLE than other solutions.

Carbon wires and ferrite windings tend to fail in the way I described above; sections get burnt out and no longer conduct as easily.

Copper cores (MSD) are notorious for corroding, which ultimately causes the same result as the situation described above.

Pros:

• In my honest opinion the BEST plug wire available today
  
• Excellent construction
  
• Excellent EMI suppression
  
• Most energy conducted to the plug
  
• Pure silicone insulation that will withstand 600*F sustained and 1000*F burst (8.5 mm ) / 700*F sustained and 1200*F burst (10 mm)
  
• These would be the last set of plug wires you buy ever, the conductor will never corrode (copper like MSD ) or break down (ferrite/carbon latex like stock).
  
• Should extend the life of your ignition coils because they will not have to work as hard to fire the plug.
  
• Made in America

Cons:

• Initial cost (replacing your stock wires with stock sets 2 to 3 times would easily pay for these). There is NO WAY these will be cheaper than MSD's or ZZP's. (BTW, the engineer I talked to at this company singled out MSD plug wires as being terrible and that they have lots of problems with them.)
  
• Orders would have to be in groups of AT LEAST 20+ or 50+. 50 would get a slightly better price.
  
• Looming. Basically you have to be extremely careful to ensure that all wires are are separated from each other and do not come into contact with any grounded metal (IE the ENGINE). While this will NOT damage the wire, it will cause poor performance of the ignition system. Most people who have cracked plug will often try and RMA these type of wires because of poor performance, when in reality it's due to the plug or poor insulation. 10mm will not fit stock looming and you will HAVE to buy seperators. I have been told 8.5 will fit. (some people use zip ties to make their own separators)

Most aftermarket plug wires are designed to optimize profit margin and not your maintenance schedule. They will not sell as many sets if they make sets that are designed to last the life of the car. Mechanics wouldn't make as much money if you don't come back. OEM's are looking at volume pricing, and don't care if they have to throw a set of wires at you with in your 36,000 miles if they get a great deal on them because they ordered a few hundred thousand at a time.


Cost:
The wire I have chosen is a 10 mm wire with a 100% silicone jacket and a stainless steel (highly wound) winding. capable of withstanding 700*F sustained or 1200*F for 3 minutes. Prices could be a bit less if the community moves towards the 8.5 mm wire, which is the same conductor, with a thinner silicone jacket which can withstand 600*F sustained or 1000*F for 3 minutes. The 1 piece pure silicone jacket makes it possible to fit the 8.5mm wires in the factory wire separators with out damaging the conductor like would happen with other brands. But I feel the extra insulation necessary since the proximity of our plug wires to the supercharger.

The sets will be manufactured by the manufacturer as the cost of the materials VS having them make the sets is so marginal that I determined it better to have them do it, so you don't need to worry yourself with anything in the regard of the quality of the assembly.

I would tentatively release the following prices:
20+ Orders, $130
50+ Orders, $120
(subject to change)
does not include wire separators or CoolSox, but includes shipping
(If I were a store owner, I would retails these sets at nearly $200)

You WILL need to provide a looming solution which keeps the wires separated and away from the engine as much as possible. (This is how ANY plug wire should be installed, but the manufacturer was clear they did not want to see wires come back because they were improperly routed.) I recommend CoolSox (spark plug boot protectors) in your installation especially in applications with headers/tubular manifolds or turbochargers, however the manufacturer says they should be fine with out them.

Properly installed and maintained, these will be the last plug wires you ever buy.

What I would like to do is start a list of 20. If it moves at a good pace, we will go to 50. Currently, there are 6 on the list.

Once we reach the order amount, I will dispatch an email and people on the list will have 48 hours to send payment. People who did not get in on time will be notified. Those who do not pay with in 48 hours will be replaced with people who did not make the first batch. If people get bumped the "back up people" will have 24 hours to pay. I'll place the order with the company and will then receive the wires and then ship them to their final destination myself. If a significant amount of people do NOT pay (lets say, 20-25%), I will return peoples money to them, sans paypal fees if they pay with a credit card. I will have 2 addresses to use, one for payments with and one with out a CC. If only a few people fail to pay, I will either attempt to work out a deal with the manufacture or pay for the remainder of sets my self and then they will be available at a marked up price to whomever wants them.

If everyone would commit to buying wire separators and CoolSox I could also likely get those at volume a discount as well. If there is enough interest, CoolSox will be available in white for an additional cost of ~27$ per set shipped (quantity of 6). When I bought mine they were 36+tax & S&H.

I have mad a few (good) connections with industries in this area, and chose to rely on American products and local business. Which I feel allows me to find better quality products and workmanship, while supporting our economy and working class. I refuse to deal with products that come from China, where ever avoidable.

All of the information above has been compiled from two threads on RegalGS.org. They can be found here:
(must be registered to view)
"Sick of Stock Spark Plug Wires? I have a solution for you":
http://www.regalgs.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=62320&st=0&sk=t&sd=a
"Official Plug Wire Sign Up Sheet":
http://www.regalgs.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=62556

Sounds like a good product, but unfortunately I just don't have the money. The prices are very good though, not nearly as high as I thought they were going to be the way you built up and up on the suspense!


Anybody interested? I wish I had the money or the need; my ignition system is still going just fine.

in my experience, 8mm Magnecors would work just as well, and in my use (about 100,000 miles on the riv with 8mm Magnecor wires) don't need CoolSox.

But your wires do sound nice.

Albertj

would they be blue and smell good like NAPA belden wires?
seriously though, i would give them a try, if I were in the market for some plug wires... but with the exchange rate, i cant justify 130USD. Maybe if there is excellent results in the first group run, I'd be in for the second.

A salute to Chris for taking a shot at organizing this group buy.

Albertj

albertj wrote:

in my experience, 8mm Magnecors would work just as well, and in my use (about 100,000 miles on the riv with 8mm Magnecor wires) don't need CoolSox.

But your wires do sound nice.

Albertj

If you don't mind me asking, what did you pay?

I don't know....it sells itself...

albertj wrote:

in my experience, 8mm Magnecors would work just as well, and in my use (about 100,000 miles on the riv with 8mm Magnecor wires) don't need CoolSox.

But your wires do sound nice.

Albertj

Albertj,
When things are finalized with the manufacturer, you will be pleasantly surprised when you see these wires. Are yours the plain 8mm electrosport wire? or the 8.5 KV85's ?

I'm not here to teach people the value of quality materials and workmanship, but if they can recognize it themselves, then I'll gladly sell them a set.

That being said, I find it ironic that some one running accel plug wires is making a comment comparing this thread to sham wow.

I have been on this forum 10 minutes, and after seeing someone post that picture, and another that comment in this thread it really gives me a great impression. I wanted to extend this opportunity to all 3800 owners, how ever its difficult to sell a product that does not sacrifice performance or quality to a community that's primarily cost driven. These wires are for those serious about durability and performance. If that isn't you, and if you have nothing useful to contribute, don't troll the thread, please see your way out.

Chicken wrote:

I don't know....it sells itself...

"made by the Germans, so you know it's good"

edit:Sorry to crap on your thread. i meant no disrespect to you or your product, just poking fun at the shamwow guy.(i work at a carwash and it's a heavy target for jokes there too)

Mr.Riviera wrote:

Chicken wrote:

I don't know....it sells itself...

"made by the Germans, so you know it's good"

Sounds like Shinstu!!

They sound like great wires, but I just don't have the money for them, or much else right now.

Hellfish, you have to understand that we appreciate what you guys are doing, but try not to take things so seriously. I think we are all serious about performance and durability, but in the current state, not all of us can afford it. Be patient. This will work out. There are plenty of 3800 owners out there. We are a silly group.

I'll answer questions, then comment.

LSChris: My Magnecors are the 8mm Electrosports. IIRC I paid $65-75. It was quite some time ago and although I noted them in my maintenance log I did not note the price.

Hellfish: I don't know where you're going but I think I can see where you've been. It may help you to re-read Ryan's comment. It may also help you to use the 'search' function on this editboard to find and read the earlier postings about plug wires - the net of which is that the OE wires could stand improvement but are not bad at all for the price (if you shop around). I do not recall seeing much cheering or bragging about ZZP or MSD wires in those other RivieraPerformance posts.

Comment: I still sincerely salute Chris and Hellfish for offering this group buy. I'm sure people who are in the market for wires right this minute will look at them, although they are not my cup of tea.

Albertj

I commend you guys for trying to bring a product to the 3800 market.

I'm not personally interested, as I see no reason to spend that kind of cash on wires when my original AC Delcos were still going strong at 120k. I only chose to replace with new AC Delcos as part of a general maintenance project last year, at $40. I expect I'll get another 120k out of this new set.

Perhaps you'll find more interest from others here who are running higher perf cars than mine. Good luck with the GB.

I will possibly have some big info Monday after we talk to the manufacturer again, and likely install pics later in the week.

While stock plug wires will work just fine for a long time, because of their construction, they will make the coil achieve a higher voltage to get the plug to fire. This will unnecessarily over work the coil. These are really for people expecting high cylinder pressures and dense charge mixtures that will require a much higher than stock voltage to fire the plug anyway.

I'm going to copy paste from my original post on Regal gs. that was in reply to whats the difference between these plug wires and stock plug wires.

"Basically, inside your factory spark plug wire is a carbon laden latex material that conducts the ignition pulse to the plug from the coil along the surface of this latex core.

what happens over time is that portions of the carbon burn out (similar to electromigration in micro circuitry) and the conductor looks akin to something not unlike Swiss cheese. This will make the coil work harder (energize to a higher voltage) to cross the gaps and achieve the required voltage at the plug to fire.

Companies that sell spiral core wires with low ohms are trying to take advantage of consumer ignorance because consumers think that less OHMS = more spark and marketing leads them that way. In reality what it means is that there is less linear feet of the expensive spiral wire. Unlike measuring ohms with a 1.5v DC ohm meter, ignition pulses (45,000-75,000VDC typical) travel across the outer edge of the spiral windings, and not through them linearly.

These wires have a stainless steel spiral winding with generous amounts of actual wire, which give them a high OHM reading, but allow them to transfer large amounts of energy easily.

Carbon wires and ferrite windings tend to fail in the way i described above, sections get burnt out and no longer conduct as easily.

Copper cores (msd) are notorious for corroding, which ultimately causes the same result as the situation described above.

When your ignition coil fires, it's actually energizing until the plug discharges. This means, when you are wide open with denser charges and higher cylinder pressures it will achieve a higher voltage than at idle or cruise. The voltage required to jump the gap of the plug increases as the density of the charge in the cylinder increases. The resistance of the entire system (plug wire, plug, cylinder pressure/density) determines what coil voltage and plug voltage the plug will fire.

Even with NEW stock plug wires, or currently available aftermarket wires, it will take significantly more voltage to fire the plug than with these wires. Energizing to more voltage will hasten the life of your coils.

In either situation, the voltage at the plug it self is the same, as at wide open, the voltage to cross the gap in the PLUG will be same for a particular car regardless of what wire you are using. How ever, since some wires don't conduct energy as easily, the coil will have to reach a higher voltage to achieve the appropriate voltage at the plug it self.

Most aftermarket plug wires are designed to optimize profit margin and not your maintenance schedule. They will not sell as many sets if they make sets that are designed to last the life of the car. Mechanics wouldn't make as much money if you don't come back. OEM's are looking at volume pricing, and don't care if they have to throw a set of wires at you with in your 36,000 miles if they get a great deal on them because they ordered a few hundred thousand at a time.

Properly installed and cared for, these will be the last plug wires you buy. If I were selling these at a retail store front, i would be charging closer to 200$.

YOU
GET
WHAT
YOU
PAY
FOR

any thing worth doing is worth doing right... etc etc. I'm not here to teach people the value of quality materials and workmanship, but if they can recognize it themselves, then I'll gladly sell them a set.

BTW, the company will be making the sets them selves as the cost of the materials VS having them make the sets is so marginal that I determined it better to have them do it, so you don't need to worry yourself with anything in the regard of the quality of the assembly. Before you balk at the price, realize the price are on par with PRJ's which use Taylor 409 ferrite winding wires, and the premium over ZZPs is marginal at best, especially after shipping, which I am including. IMHO the premium you pay for most aftermarket wires was not spent in the component, but rather marketing. Not to mention, I went from nothing to basically having a product that could be shipping with in a week in a matter of days.

I have mad a few (good) connections with industries in this area, and chose to rely on American products and local business. Which I feel allows me to find better quality products and workmanship, while supporting our economy and working class. I refuse to deal with products that come from China, where ever avoidable. I'd like to see these as a start of something, perhaps a series of very specialized, quality components for our vehicles that are not available anywhere else."

pictures when you can...

We'll have the first 2 sets next week most likely, but we might not have separators on them (which aren't included anyway)

We are going to shorten the rear wires, because at factory length they are almost 12 inches too long each.

LSChris: thank you for sharing this offer with our membership. I wish you and Hellfish the best of luck with selling this product.

Hellfish: all comments, serious or facetious, represent our members' personalities and opinions. Please accept them. We are your customers, and by my estimate you may have just lost one or two potential buyers. Please try not to judge our members before you've gotten a chance to know them. Remember, you're in our house. And we welcome you!

My .02 on these wires: (please consider the following to be constructive criticism, suggestions to make your product successful. I'm not trying to bash your idea, just giving my honest opinion, FWIW.)

Assuming LSChris and Hellfish are engineers, we will have to believe their claims about how electricity flows through wires - although it goes against every instinct to say a wire will flow more energy even though it measures a higher impedance than the competition. Not doubting the claim, just saying maybe a clearer explanation is in order. Some R&D with test results would be nice. So far I'm intrigued by what you've said, but I'm not completely sold. I'd like to know more about the credibility of those making the claims, and/or references of experts who can substantiate the understanding of electron flow.

Durability: as mentioned, OEM wires will likely exceed 100k. Mine did, and now I'm running a 2nd set. I am still on all original coils at 180K miles, running in boost very often. When you say, "Properly installed and maintained, these will be the last plug wires you ever buy." what exactly does this mean? Does it imply the wires come with a lifetime guarantee? If so, what are the specific details of your warranty or guarantee?

Performance: I would need to see some specific horsepower claims, voltage measurements, multiple dyno sheets (stock wires on first runs, yours later), or maybe a testimonial by someone who's run the wires and seen some sort of performance gain. Considering no one in the industry has been able to prove significant power or economy benefits only by swapping ignition wires, I'd need some real proof. Unless you meant something else by performance, please fill us in.

Thanks again to LSChris and Hellfish for introducing this new product to the 3800 community, and to our board. It's always exciting to see something truly innovative and fresh. I hope the product is a success, and can't wait for more info, product photos, and positive reports of this product from satisfied customers.

I think Magnacor has a good write up on the truth about impedance in Ignition Wires and various types of wire conductors..
http://www.magnecor.com./magnecor1/truth.htm

I'm a bit late to chime in on this thread, but I would also like to welcome you both to the board. There have indeed been a lot of debates about the benefits of "better" spark plug wires, and I have yet to be convinced that there is anything more than a stock ignition system needed for the 3800. Unless you are building over 500 hp / 9 second car, the stock ignition performs very well. I know plenty of 11 second gtps with stock coils and oem or oem style wires. I am still running my factory wires at 11 years and 138K miles. I covered anyplace the wires cross or touch metal with split loom years ago, and they are still performing with no misfires.

In my opinion, I'm sure these are nice wires, but for most 3800s they are overboard. Good luck with your group buy!

AA wrote:

LSChris: thank you for sharing this offer with our membership. I wish you and Hellfish the best of luck with selling this product.

Hellfish: all comments, serious or facetious, represent our members' personalities and opinions. Please accept them. We are your customers, and by my estimate you may have just lost one or two potential buyers. Please try not to judge our members before you've gotten a chance to know them. Remember, you're in our house. And we welcome you!

My .02 on these wires: (please consider the following to be constructive criticism, suggestions to make your product successful. I'm not trying to bash your idea, just giving my honest opinion, FWIW.)

Assuming LSChris and Hellfish are engineers, we will have to believe their claims about how electricity flows through wires - although it goes against every instinct to say a wire will flow more energy even though it measures a higher impedance than the competition. Not doubting the claim, just saying maybe a clearer explanation is in order. Some R&D with test results would be nice. So far I'm intrigued by what you've said, but I'm not completely sold. I'd like to know more about the credibility of those making the claims, and/or references of experts who can substantiate the understanding of electron flow.

Durability: as mentioned, OEM wires will likely exceed 100k. Mine did, and now I'm running a 2nd set. I am still on all original coils at 180K miles, running in boost very often. When you say, "Properly installed and maintained, these will be the last plug wires you ever buy." what exactly does this mean? Does it imply the wires come with a lifetime guarantee? If so, what are the specific details of your warranty or guarantee?

Performance: I would need to see some specific horsepower claims, voltage measurements, multiple dyno sheets (stock wires on first runs, yours later), or maybe a testimonial by someone who's run the wires and seen some sort of performance gain. Considering no one in the industry has been able to prove significant power or economy benefits only by swapping ignition wires, I'd need some real proof. Unless you meant something else by performance, please fill us in.

Thanks again to LSChris and Hellfish for introducing this new product to the 3800 community, and to our board. It's always exciting to see something truly innovative and fresh. I hope the product is a success, and can't wait for more info, product photos, and positive reports of this product from satisfied customers.

It's going to be very clear once we finalize everything with the manufacture.

These wires are proven in many other applications, the manufacture just never cut them for ours. The same wire we will be using can be found on racing engines in every kind of motor sports.

You aren't going to bolt on horsepower with plug wires. The plug either fires, or it doesn't. If it doesn't you lose HP. If it does, it does. But then you can analyze how well the wires perform in the system in regards to durability and required coil voltage. Dyno tests of HP mean nothing in regards to plug wires. The only reason to put a car on a dyno for a test of plug wires is to be able to reach the RPM where the required voltage to fire the plug is at what you will be at under WOT acceleration. At this point the real testing is measuring coil voltage and how much energy the wire can handle, how much is lost, how much EMI is emitted, etc... and NOT in how much WHP it makes, because it, everything else the same, should not make a difference in hp according to physics.

A wire that has less energy loss will inherently reduce RFI and EMI because the coil will not energize to as high a voltage as it would with a wire that has additional suppression (resistor), everything else equal.

The stock ignition is good for approx 45,000 - 50,000 volts. These wires should be considered for afew reasons.

1. You want plug wires that will outlast the life of the car, and most likely extend the life of your coils.

2. You are reaching high cylinder pressures and need to make sure that you are getting the most energy to the plug as possible.

3. You need a wire that handles extremely high temperatures due to your headers/turbo manifold.

IMHO, stock ignition coils and these wires, combined with AR103's will take your car as far as you want to go.

Good info being posted. Thanks RickW and Hellfish! Based on what I know so far, if I were looking to upgrade from stock wires, I would consider these over any other type currenly offered.

Would still like to know a few things:

1) if these wires fail, for any reason other than mishandling, what is the return policy? Is there a mileage guarantee? Since these are intended for heavily modded vehicles, is there any design improvement that could allow more frequent removal and re-installation? That would be a huge bonus, imo.

2) if an OEM coil pack should fail (before a determined mileage mark) with these wires installed, is there any warranty claim that can be made? 50% refund toward a new coil for example. At least something to give customers some piece of mind that the life of our coils are being extended.

3) are there any plans to market or give this product a brand name? Does the partnership between LSChris and Hellfish have an official title?

If I hadn't just bought a $120 set of wires 5k miles ago, I'd probably be down but anyway, I would have to agree with Aaron on the conern with durability as far as handling installations. There's a lot of good information on these wires but I wouldn't mind actually knowing what design factors have been put in to make the boots and connectors more fit for multiple installations. That's really the only big concern I have with most wires because I really don't let them get to the point of failing conductively, ever.

AA wrote:

Good info being posted. Thanks RickW and Hellfish! Based on what I know so far, if I were looking to upgrade from stock wires, I would consider these over any other type currenly offered.

Would still like to know a few things:

1) if these wires fail, for any reason other than mishandling, what is the return policy? Is there a mileage guarantee? Since these are intended for heavily modded vehicles, is there any design improvement that could allow more frequent removal and re-installation? That would be a huge bonus, imo.

2) if an OEM coil pack should fail (before a determined mileage mark) with these wires installed, is there any warranty claim that can be made? 50% refund toward a new coil for example. At least something to give customers some piece of mind that the life of our coils are being extended.

3) are there any plans to market or give this product a brand name? Does the partnership between LSChris and Hellfish have an official title?

1.) Pending finalizing everything with the manufacture, I would imagine that all legitimate warranty claims would be handled by us, with the manufacture. Once the manufacture approves the claim, new or repaired wires would be sent to us, then to you.(IE, if only one wire broke, i would imagine they only replace that one). If they are denied, then I would trust their expert opinion that the damage was caused by user error and the plug wires would be shipped back at the customers expense. This would be subject to change. There will be no returns for non-defective products. I doubt this company will have very many defects. This is not subject to change.

The plug wires will last more plug changes than you will ever perform to the car and more cycles than you could put it through with in reason.(IE, you don't spend 3 days pulling them on and off until it fails) I never asked, but I would guess the cycles for MTBF is in the thousands? You just don't want to try to remove the boot while the engine is hot because the copper terminal on the plug expands faster than the stainless steel terminal in the boot and may be locked together when you try to pull, which will pull the terminal out of the boot.

2.) It would be impossible to determine the actual miles of your coil you would be claiming. So no. It would be a stretch to ask any manufacture to warranty a component they didn't sell you no matter how intimately related. Especially if their product could not have caused the failure.

3.) The product will be sold under the manufactures brand, though we would be the exclusive distributors of this part number.

Can you post some pics? Do you have a set of beta wires? I'm curious how i would route and loom 10mm wires... under/over the SC snout, stuff like that will be a challenge since I don't think they'll fit in the factory clips anymore.

My doubt of the value is there, but my curiosity is piqued.