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 Temperature Gauge

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rivi95era
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rivi95era

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Temperature Gauge Empty
PostSubject: Temperature Gauge   Temperature Gauge EmptyWed Jun 18, 2014 3:18 pm

Hey guys,

Need some help here. My Temperature gauge have never worked in my riv and neither has the gear indicator.
Well the indicator I have come to just deal with but no knowing my temperature drives me nuts. I was going to
just pull the temp sensor and stick my after market gauge in that sensor hole and then got to thinking that my
car will always run in an open loop and get even worse gas mileage than it already does. I know that it is working
because the fans come on but more importantly when I connect to my snap on its registers temperature accurately.
I am pretty sure that the problem is the cluster but I am not going to replace because the 95 cluster is only for the
95 and the cheapest I can find is close to a hundred bucks with no guarantee that it works. So If anyone has modded
an aftermarket temperature gauge into their 95 S/C Riv, I'd like to know how it was piped. Thanks in advance.  cheers
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matt270avian
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Temperature Gauge Empty
PostSubject: Re: Temperature Gauge   Temperature Gauge EmptyWed Jun 18, 2014 3:24 pm

I'm sure there's a way to splice into the factory wiring with an aftermarket gauge. It would be a lot easier if you had a 96+ so you could use the OBD II port to monitor things. You might be able to find something that plugs into the 95's port which is OBD 1.5 IIRC.
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rivi95era
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rivi95era

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Temperature Gauge Empty
PostSubject: Re: Temperature Gauge   Temperature Gauge EmptyWed Jun 18, 2014 3:28 pm

The obd port is in an awkward place and any cords hanging will get tangled up when you try to drive. This sensor is a two wire which led me to believe that there may be a second sensor but there is none that I could find and I have had the top end off the motor. Surely if it was there I would have found it then, lol. Thanks for the forward thinking Matt!
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matt270avian
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Temperature Gauge Empty
PostSubject: Re: Temperature Gauge   Temperature Gauge EmptyWed Jun 18, 2014 3:38 pm

Do you have service manuals? I couldn't think of a better way to trace down wiring and finding a good spot to splice in than that. The only problem is that it could mess with the resistance going to the ECU causing inaccurate readings on both the ECU and the gauge. The other problem is that some gauges like to have their own sensor which is good and bad for you. The good part is that you can mount the sensor wherever you want so that the wiring and everything is hidden. The bad part is that you have to install another sensor and run the wiring.
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rivi95era
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rivi95era

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Temperature Gauge Empty
PostSubject: Re: Temperature Gauge   Temperature Gauge EmptyWed Jun 18, 2014 4:24 pm

hmm, think I may need a shot gun for this car......  evil 
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rivi95era
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rivi95era

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Temperature Gauge Empty
PostSubject: Re: Temperature Gauge   Temperature Gauge EmptyWed Jun 18, 2014 4:48 pm

Sorry, but to answer your question I don't have a service manual for the car. That would probably help with all the puzzles this car has. I really do not want to tap any wires, I just want to see if anyone has run an analog temp. gauge and how they did it.
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BLKOUT
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Temperature Gauge Empty
PostSubject: Re: Temperature Gauge   Temperature Gauge EmptySun Jun 22, 2014 5:57 pm

rivi95era wrote:
Hey guys,

Need some help here. My Temperature gauge have never worked in my riv and neither has the gear indicator.

I literally have BOTH of the exact same problems on my 95 Series II Riv (non S/C). headshot 

1. DISPLAY ALWAYS STUCK ON "D."
Gear Indicator Display on the instrument dash panel flashes 3-4 times after the engine turns over while still in Park. The gear indicator is stuck on Drive "D" - both while flashing and after I shift anywhere out of park. I did some reading around and a mechanic wrote on a thred somewhere that it may have something to do with the "Transmission Selector Switch ?"dunno 

2. TEMPERATURE DISPLAY GAUGE NEVER MOVES FROM ZERO.
Now that it's summer in CLE, it really freaks me out, now more than ever, that I cannot see the engines temperature while driving. I just replaced the temp sensor & both gaskets as well as the coolant temp sensor (ECT) because I could feel it running way to hot & also hoped that replacing the two would get the internal temp gauge to give me some sort of reading - but had no luck on solving either of the two problems.

p.s. - SES Light sometimes comes on, but it does so irregularly and not all the time...
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rivi95era
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rivi95era

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Temperature Gauge Empty
PostSubject: Re: Temperature Gauge   Temperature Gauge EmptyMon Jun 23, 2014 8:06 am

Hey blkout, Sorry you are having the same problems. I am pretty certain that its the cluster. If you look closely when you crank the car. The "press brake to shift" light will come on then go off and the last riv I drive before this one that light stayed on till you put in gear. Also a way to see if your neutral safety switch is working, just set the parking brake, turn the key to the run position (your cel light will be on but motor off) put her in reverse and see if you got lights back there. If you do then the switch is good and you either have a wiring to the cluster issue of a bad cluster.

For your check engine light, thats something you need to get the codes read, a 95 is harder to read and you have to read it while its on, when the light is off the code is gone. If you were local I could read the code(s) for you.

The reality is your display is not stuck on drive its got a circle around the D (stop laughing) to signify that it is an over drive transmission. The indicator is a little line under the corresponding gear.
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rivi95era
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rivi95era

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Temperature Gauge Empty
PostSubject: Re: Temperature Gauge   Temperature Gauge EmptyWed Sep 09, 2020 7:04 pm

So for anyone following along at home, I am still no closer to fixing the temp gauge, however I have service manuals for this car now and come to find out the neutral safety switch or range selector on this car actually affects the timing along with other things as well. I need to replace the switch and in replacing the switch or range selector I could inadvertently fix other problems. The data line going to and coming from the cluster is good and the pcm sees the correct running temperature. Ill keep this post updated as I find out more. Like I have said before I do not want to splice into anything. I at a point now where I am attempting to restore the vehicle and paint will be added to the list as well as seat upholstery. The rest of the interior is really well preserved.
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albertj
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Temperature Gauge Empty
PostSubject: Re: Temperature Gauge   Temperature Gauge EmptyThu Sep 10, 2020 1:09 pm

rivi95era wrote:
So for anyone following along at home, I am still no closer to fixing the temp gauge, however I have service manuals for this car now and come to find out the neutral safety switch or range selector on this car actually affects the timing along with other things as well. I need to replace the switch and in replacing the switch or range selector I could inadvertently fix other problems. The data line going to and coming from the cluster is good and the pcm sees the correct running temperature. Ill keep this post updated as I find out more. Like I have said before I do not want to splice into anything. I at a point now where I am attempting to restore the vehicle and paint will be added to the list as well as seat upholstery. The rest of the interior is really well preserved.

You did consider cluster repair? It'd help me to know why you're not sending it out to be fixed. These people are in Wellsboro, PA not far from me. Context is that this area has a number of 1st and 2nd tier auto suppliers along with people who were in large companies and left to set up their own shop either because they could earn a better buck, or not have to "play nice with the other kids" in preference to high quality machining et cetera. See https://www.instrumentclusterstore.com/faq.htm. They strip parts out of used clusters to fix customer clusters, or install OE components (like stepper motors). Just curious...
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rivi95era
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rivi95era

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Temperature Gauge Empty
PostSubject: Re: Temperature Gauge   Temperature Gauge EmptyThu Sep 10, 2020 4:57 pm

albertj wrote:
rivi95era wrote:
So for anyone following along at home, I am still no closer to fixing the temp gauge, however I have service manuals for this car now and come to find out the neutral safety switch or range selector on this car actually affects the timing along with other things as well. I need to replace the switch and in replacing the switch or range selector I could inadvertently fix other problems. The data line going to and coming from the cluster is good and the pcm sees the correct running temperature. Ill keep this post updated as I find out more. Like I have said before I do not want to splice into anything. I at a point now where I am attempting to restore the vehicle and paint will be added to the list as well as seat upholstery. The rest of the interior is really well preserved.

You did consider cluster repair?  It'd help me to know why you're not sending it out to be fixed.   These people are in Wellsboro, PA not far from me.  Context is that this area has a number of 1st and 2nd tier auto suppliers along with people who were in large companies and left to set up their own shop either because they could earn a better buck, or not have  to "play nice with the other kids" in preference to high quality machining et cetera. See https://www.instrumentclusterstore.com/faq.htm.  They strip parts out of used clusters to fix customer clusters, or install OE components (like stepper motors).  Just curious...

Cluster repair unfortunately wont help because it is not the cluster, I have tested it, the temperature gauge specifically and it works as does everything else on it. Im sure they would be happy to take my money but I also have a known good low mileage cluster that the same problem persists. Its the signal source, somewhere in the Uart serial data line, is the issue but I have to track that down. The first post I made was six years ago and I had very little obd 1 experience, I have learned alot in the years gone past but this problem has remained and the car has just been driven as it is. I wanna shift to a restore mode and before I get into any real body and paint work, I want all the peripherals to function as intended. This temp gauge and the gear reange selector are all that stand to be remedied. I appreciate the input though.

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albertj
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Temperature Gauge Empty
PostSubject: Re: Temperature Gauge   Temperature Gauge EmptyThu Sep 10, 2020 6:17 pm

rivi95era wrote:
albertj wrote:
rivi95era wrote:
So for anyone following along at home, I am still no closer to fixing the temp gauge, however I have service manuals for this car now and come to find out the neutral safety switch or range selector on this car actually affects the timing along with other things as well. I need to replace the switch and in replacing the switch or range selector I could inadvertently fix other problems. The data line going to and coming from the cluster is good and the pcm sees the correct running temperature. Ill keep this post updated as I find out more. Like I have said before I do not want to splice into anything. I at a point now where I am attempting to restore the vehicle and paint will be added to the list as well as seat upholstery. The rest of the interior is really well preserved.

You did consider cluster repair?  It'd help me to know why you're not sending it out to be fixed.   These people are in Wellsboro, PA not far from me.  Context is that this area has a number of 1st and 2nd tier auto suppliers along with people who were in large companies and left to set up their own shop either because they could earn a better buck, or not have  to "play nice with the other kids" in preference to high quality machining et cetera. See https://www.instrumentclusterstore.com/faq.htm.  They strip parts out of used clusters to fix customer clusters, or install OE components (like stepper motors).  Just curious...

Cluster repair unfortunately wont help because it is not the cluster, I have tested it, the temperature gauge specifically and it works as does everything else on it. Im sure they would be happy to take my money but I also have a known good low mileage cluster that the same problem persists. Its the signal source, somewhere in the Uart serial data line, is the issue but I have to track that down. The first post I made was six years ago and I had very little obd 1 experience, I have learned alot in the years gone past but this problem has remained and the car has just been driven as it is. I wanna shift to a restore mode and before I get into any real body and paint work, I want all the peripherals to function as intended. This temp gauge and the gear reange selector are all that stand to be remedied. I appreciate the input though.


Interesting challenge.  My initial guess is a bad terminal crimp in one of the connectors between the cluster and the PCM.  Once identified, it can be re-done -- dealers have the terminal kits, or you can use a pin to back the terminal out, pry open the crimp, strip a little wire and recrimp or solder it back together and reinsert.  

You know how to tell if a wire is broken inside insulation?  If not, let me know.

There was a similar problem (wire brokeb inside insulation) on the ignition module and firewall passthru to PCM in 95-96 Rivs, one of the black wires usually would work harden and snap inside the insulation after some years of use. One list member kinda gave me grief about that but investigated anyway and found out I was right--then posted one of the nicest writeups I've seen about how to find/fix the problem.
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rivi95era
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rivi95era

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Temperature Gauge Empty
PostSubject: Re: Temperature Gauge   Temperature Gauge EmptyThu Sep 10, 2020 7:26 pm

albertj wrote:
rivi95era wrote:
albertj wrote:
rivi95era wrote:
So for anyone following along at home, I am still no closer to fixing the temp gauge, however I have service manuals for this car now and come to find out the neutral safety switch or range selector on this car actually affects the timing along with other things as well. I need to replace the switch and in replacing the switch or range selector I could inadvertently fix other problems. The data line going to and coming from the cluster is good and the pcm sees the correct running temperature. Ill keep this post updated as I find out more. Like I have said before I do not want to splice into anything. I at a point now where I am attempting to restore the vehicle and paint will be added to the list as well as seat upholstery. The rest of the interior is really well preserved.

You did consider cluster repair?  It'd help me to know why you're not sending it out to be fixed.   These people are in Wellsboro, PA not far from me.  Context is that this area has a number of 1st and 2nd tier auto suppliers along with people who were in large companies and left to set up their own shop either because they could earn a better buck, or not have  to "play nice with the other kids" in preference to high quality machining et cetera. See https://www.instrumentclusterstore.com/faq.htm.  They strip parts out of used clusters to fix customer clusters, or install OE components (like stepper motors).  Just curious...

Cluster repair unfortunately wont help because it is not the cluster, I have tested it, the temperature gauge specifically and it works as does everything else on it. Im sure they would be happy to take my money but I also have a known good low mileage cluster that the same problem persists. Its the signal source, somewhere in the Uart serial data line, is the issue but I have to track that down. The first post I made was six years ago and I had very little obd 1 experience, I have learned alot in the years gone past but this problem has remained and the car has just been driven as it is. I wanna shift to a restore mode and before I get into any real body and paint work, I want all the peripherals to function as intended. This temp gauge and the gear reange selector are all that stand to be remedied. I appreciate the input though.


Interesting challenge.  My initial guess is a bad terminal crimp in one of the connectors between the cluster and the PCM.  Once identified, it can be re-done -- dealers have the terminal kits, or you can use a pin to back the terminal out, pry open the crimp, strip a little wire and recrimp or solder it back together and reinsert.  

You know how to tell if a wire is broken inside insulation?  If not, let me know.

There was a similar problem (wire brokeb inside insulation) on the ignition module and firewall passthru to PCM in 95-96 Rivs, one of the black wires usually would work harden and snap inside the insulation after some years of use.  One list member kinda gave me grief about that but investigated anyway and found out I was right--then posted one of the nicest writeups I've seen about how to find/fix the problem.
I am always open to learn new skills. Lay it on me. There is a probe I was looking to buy that has the ability to detect broken wires inside the insulator, but sometimes technology isn't always reliable.
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albertj
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Temperature Gauge Empty
PostSubject: Re: Temperature Gauge   Temperature Gauge EmptyThu Sep 10, 2020 9:29 pm

The problem with broken wires is they are sometimes intermittent.

If you just grab the wire and wiggle it, sometimes you can tell without doing any electrical testing because the wire bends very far with very little effort.. or it breaks off when you are checking he he.

Especially with work hardened copper, sometimes the break is a fracture and the ends are so close that it makes and breaks. If the voltage is high enough and it arcs it can even weld itself back together for a little while.

You'll want probes with very sharp points so you can contact one pin in the connector with one probe and pierce the insulation of the corresponding wire with the other probe to see if you have continuity. Either check for continuity (your meter may have a beeper or buzzer setting) or resistance. Being just a wire, shouldn't see any.

I also wonder if your connector is damaged or if a connector is loose. I'd think you would have found that by now, though.

Also, a visual inspection of the entire wire run from the cluster would not be a waste of time. Each time (it has only been 4 times) the dealer mechanics have done serious work behind the dash of my car I have had to take 1/2 hour or so and re-re-route the wiring because they kind of slap it back in (who cares its an old car with a zillion miles, right?). Wire will be rubbing against sharp metal edges and all kinds of cr@p. Have to get under there and fix it right or over time all kinds of stupid stuff happens. The pain is when I have to disconnect and reconnect the plugs. It is hard to stand on my head (figuratively) and get those suckers plugged back in, and hard to tell if they are really right when you do. I don't blame them (much) if they don't loom them right, although when they are not right they make stupid annoying repetitive noises while driving.

what's next??

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Rivieraz
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Temperature Gauge Empty
PostSubject: Re: Temperature Gauge   Temperature Gauge EmptyFri Sep 11, 2020 12:12 am

p0705 PRNDL shifter switch , my 95 did the some thing i believe it sits ontop of your tranny ,before mine was fixed i had to wiggle the shifter to read the right gear. or it would keep flashing, but evreything else worked, release brake light doors locked when in park, PRNDL switch fixed it .Hope this helps!
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rivi95era
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rivi95era

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Temperature Gauge Empty
PostSubject: Re: Temperature Gauge   Temperature Gauge EmptyFri Sep 11, 2020 4:28 am

albertj wrote:
The problem with broken wires is they are sometimes intermittent.

If you just grab the wire and wiggle it, sometimes you can tell without doing any electrical testing because the wire bends very far with very little effort.. or it breaks off when you are checking he he.

Especially with work hardened copper, sometimes the break is a fracture and the ends are so close that it makes and breaks.  If the voltage is high enough and it arcs it can even weld itself back together for a little while.  

You'll want probes with very sharp points so you can contact one pin in the connector with one probe and pierce the insulation of the corresponding wire with the other probe to see if you have continuity.  Either check for continuity (your meter may have a beeper or buzzer setting) or resistance.  Being just a wire, shouldn't see any.  

I also wonder if your connector is damaged or if a connector is loose. I'd think you would have found that by now, though.  

Also, a visual inspection of the entire wire run from the cluster would not be a waste of time.  Each time (it has only been 4 times) the dealer mechanics have done serious work behind the dash of my car I have had to take 1/2 hour or so and re-re-route the wiring because they kind of slap it back in (who cares its an old car with a zillion miles, right?).  Wire will be rubbing against  sharp metal edges and all kinds of cr@p.  Have to get under there and fix it right or over time all kinds of stupid stuff happens. The pain is when I have to disconnect and reconnect the plugs.  It is hard to stand on my head (figuratively) and get those suckers plugged back in, and hard to tell if they are really right when you do.  I don't blame them (much) if they don't loom them right, although when they are not right they make stupid annoying repetitive noises while driving.  

what's next??

I see, well first thing is that my issue is not intermittent. I did have to repair three wires in the head of the cluster and when I did the repair I ohmed the wire out to make sure I didn't ad resistance to the circuit especially since its the data line providing information to the cluster, but this data line is in fact a loop so if there was a fault in the circuit then it would produce ghost codes or the mil would not work at all. I have no codes and the mil functions as it should.
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rivi95era
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rivi95era

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Temperature Gauge Empty
PostSubject: Re: Temperature Gauge   Temperature Gauge EmptyFri Sep 11, 2020 4:33 am

Rivieraz wrote:
p0705 PRNDL shifter switch , my 95 did the some thing i believe it sits  ontop of your tranny ,before mine was fixed i had to wiggle the shifter to read the right gear. or it would keep flashing, but evreything else worked, release brake light doors locked when in park, PRNDL switch fixed it .Hope this helps!
Thanks for the reply, my autolock, brake release, all work correctly along with reverse lights, the only symptom is the gear indicator on the dash, there is no dtc set. I know that I need a range selector because of the gear indicator being lit all the way up and the indicator flashes one time when I crank up, I just wonder if they temp gauge not working is somehow tied together via the data line or pcm. I will order the part when I am able, Its just not in the budget right now.
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PostSubject: Re: Temperature Gauge   Temperature Gauge EmptyFri Sep 11, 2020 7:59 am

I know on the 96 and up Riviera, the firewall main harness connector can be a problem with one very common cam sensor problem.  The PCM sets a code for no cam sensor signal, and the problem is one wire that seems to break internally on many cars.  The problem is common enough that it has it's own thread.

https://rivperformance.editboard.com/t4703p175-faq-p0341-camshaft-position-sensor-cam-sensor-timing-chain?highlight=cam+sensor+signal

(See my posts in the above linked page of that post)


 I had this problem, and a friend set up his Tech2 scan tool to monitor the the cam sensor signal.  We could actually watch it go in and out as we played with that particular wire.  Why it is such a common problem I'm not sure.  Might be worth a look. Maybe your problem might be something similar. See if you can isolate the wire in that connector for the temperature gauge and check it.

_________________
98 Riviera SC3800  All stock except gutted air box.
1970 Buick GS455 Stage1, TSP built 470BBB, 602HP/589TQ
Best MPH, 116.06 MPH, Best ET, 11.54
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