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Jack the R
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Jack the R

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Motor died today. Empty
PostSubject: Motor died today.   Motor died today. EmptyTue Mar 19, 2019 9:43 pm

First time I've ever had this happen. I was idling down a tight backsteet in town when it quit. Started right back up and has run fine since though. Well, it does seem to be having a miss after I put new plugs in. What do you think? My only idea is that the fuel pump is on it's way out, would it cause an intermittent problem like this? It's only happened the one time so far, otherwise no other problems other than a miss. Maybe that's connected though. Seems to run as strong as ever.
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albertj
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Motor died today. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Motor died today.   Motor died today. EmptyTue Mar 19, 2019 10:54 pm

Crank sensor failing will at first fail intermittently and is not at all likely to set a code.

The other intermittent fail I had that was similar was each of the 2 times the ignition switch went bad. I have replaced that stupid thing twice (in 365,000 miles/20 years)
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turtleman
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Motor died today. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Motor died today.   Motor died today. EmptyWed Mar 20, 2019 1:00 am

To add some more things to look for, the main engine harness connector has done that to me. I was randomly loosing one of my sensor signals which killed the motor and you could start it right back up. Unplug that big plug by the firewall (has a 7mm bolt i think) and plug it back it after inspecting the wires at the area they bend for damage. literally unplugging it and plugging it back in fixed my most recent issue like that
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Abaddon
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Motor died today. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Motor died today.   Motor died today. EmptyWed Mar 20, 2019 8:53 am

albertj wrote:
The other intermittent fail I had that was similar was each of the 2 times the ignition switch went bad.  I have replaced that stupid thing twice (in 365,000 miles/20 years)

Took me a month to figure out it was my Ignition Switch when it happened to me.....just randomly die in traffic. Mine progressively got worse and would happen more often, and take longer to restart.
Ended up wiring in a test light to the Ign Sw feed at the ICM, and taped it to the window. Car quit, light went out....end of story.
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albertj
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Motor died today. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Motor died today.   Motor died today. EmptyWed Mar 20, 2019 10:30 am

Abaddon wrote:
albertj wrote:
The other intermittent fail I had that was similar was each of the 2 times the ignition switch went bad.  I have replaced that stupid thing twice (in 365,000 miles/20 years)

Took me a month to figure out it was my Ignition Switch when it happened to me.....just randomly die in traffic. Mine progressively got worse and would happen more often, and take longer to restart.
Ended up wiring in a test light to the Ign Sw feed at the ICM, and taped it to the window. Car quit, light went out....end of story.

The first time my ig switch quit the service manager at my local GM dealer, on his own time (so to speak) wired NOID lights into a makeshift harness and hid them under the cowl overhang. They were wired so that we could tell if it was a ig module failure or something else.

Come to think of it on the 96s there was a problem with the work hardening of wires to the Ig module, they would break inside the insulation and cause this exact same problem. Remember that one? There is a *nice* write up somewhere on this site on how to diagnose and fix that.
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Abaddon
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Abaddon

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Motor died today. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Motor died today.   Motor died today. EmptyWed Mar 20, 2019 11:32 am

albertj wrote:
Come to think of it on the 96s there was a problem with the work hardening of wires to the Ig module, they would break inside the insulation and cause this exact same problem.  Remember that one? There is a *nice* write up somewhere on this site on how to diagnose and fix that.

The white wire right at the bend to the ICM? No, I've never seen that lol
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albertj
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Motor died today. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Motor died today.   Motor died today. EmptyWed Mar 20, 2019 1:26 pm

Abaddon wrote:
albertj wrote:
Come to think of it on the 96s there was a problem with the work hardening of wires to the Ig module, they would break inside the insulation and cause this exact same problem.  Remember that one? There is a *nice* write up somewhere on this site on how to diagnose and fix that.

The white wire right at the bend to the ICM? No, I've never seen that lol

Very funny. I remember commenting on the wire way back when. Jeff Del Vechio checked, found the problem, then did a *real* nice write-up. Unfortunately with the problem we had a while back with pictures on the site, his pictures vanished. It's still useful though...

https://rivperformance.editboard.com/t7305-writeup-ignition-control-module-icm-harness-repair
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Jack the R
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Jack the R

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Motor died today. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Motor died today.   Motor died today. EmptyThu Mar 21, 2019 9:10 pm

turtleman wrote:
To add some more things to look for, the main engine harness connector has done that to me. I was randomly loosing one of my sensor signals which killed the motor and you could start it right back up. Unplug that big plug by the firewall (has a 7mm bolt i think) and plug it back it after inspecting the wires at the area they bend for damage. literally unplugging it and plugging it back in fixed my most recent issue like that


I'll give this a try. Is it a good idea or a bad idea to hit it with a little battery terminal cleaner? I don't seem to have anything specifically for electronics, but I could get it. How about reassembling with bulb grease or NoAlOx?

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Jack the R
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Jack the R

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Motor died today. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Motor died today.   Motor died today. EmptyThu Mar 21, 2019 9:25 pm

albertj wrote:
Crank sensor failing will at first fail intermittently and is not at all likely to set a code.


 I can check for the code anyway.  I suppose changing the crank sensor involves taking most of the stuff off the "front" of the engine?


albertj wrote:

The other intermittent fail I had that was similar was each of the 2 times the ignition switch went bad.  I have replaced that stupid thing twice (in 365,000 miles/20 years)




Motor died today. 3206444754_8a3da0765a

Does it really take this much work to change the ignition lock on the Riviera?  It's so easy on the Silverado, you just pop a couple panels off the steering column and you're there. headbutt

So the cheapest ignition lock includes a key, but no telling if it has the pellet or not since the pic helpfully hides that part of the key - link

The AC Delco unit shows a key without a pellet, but the description in the RockAuto menu says "includes pattern key only."  WTF does that mean?  I have to buy keys seperately?  Link

Finally there's this Airtex/Wells unit that costs nearly twice as much as the AC Delco, for no reason that I can discern.  It includes a "dummy key."  I see no reason to get this - Link
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Abaddon
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Motor died today. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Motor died today.   Motor died today. EmptyFri Mar 22, 2019 8:33 am

Not the Ignition Cylinder Jack.....the Ignition Switch. The cylinder turns the switch (other side of column), which powers everything. The contacts start get burnt/corroded and lose continuity, which shuts the car off.
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albertj
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Motor died today. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Motor died today.   Motor died today. EmptyFri Mar 22, 2019 10:38 am

Abaddon wrote:
Not the Ignition Cylinder Jack.....the Ignition Switch. The cylinder turns the switch (other side of column), which powers everything. The contacts start get burnt/corroded and lose continuity, which shuts the car off.

Bingo. ACDelco D1842D. See the LINK.
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Jack the R
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Jack the R

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Motor died today. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Motor died today.   Motor died today. EmptyFri Mar 22, 2019 8:38 pm

Abaddon wrote:
Not the Ignition Cylinder Jack.....the Ignition Switch. The cylinder turns the switch (other side of column), which powers everything. The contacts start get burnt/corroded and lose continuity, which shuts the car off.

What a surprise - another relay switch disabling the car. If you don't mind my being bitchy for a moment, it seems everything runs off of switches with contacts that get burnt out and corroded in short order. I've had to replace a window switch, a starter relay switch, and now this. That is enough failure that it should be done differently.
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turtleman
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Motor died today. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Motor died today.   Motor died today. EmptySat Mar 23, 2019 12:19 pm

Jack the R wrote:
turtleman wrote:
To add some more things to look for, the main engine harness connector has done that to me. I was randomly loosing one of my sensor signals which killed the motor and you could start it right back up. Unplug that big plug by the firewall (has a 7mm bolt i think) and plug it back it after inspecting the wires at the area they bend for damage. literally unplugging it and plugging it back in fixed my most recent issue like that


I'll give this a try.  Is it a good idea or a bad idea to hit it with a little battery terminal cleaner?  I don't seem to have anything specifically for electronics, but I could get it.  How about reassembling with bulb grease or NoAlOx?  


I'd just leave it dry
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Jack the R
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Jack the R

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Motor died today. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Motor died today.   Motor died today. EmptySat Mar 23, 2019 1:02 pm

turtleman wrote:


I'd just leave it dry

O.K., is this the plug I'm looking for?

Motor died today. Y2uxfdxl

It looks like it's got a cap on each end and it's got clips in the middle like it splits in two, but I fiddled with it and it didn't want to split in two.

Motor died today. Y2u9wyw7

It doesn't seem like there should be this big of a gap here.
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LARRY70GS
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Motor died today. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Motor died today.   Motor died today. EmptySat Mar 23, 2019 3:33 pm

If you are talking about the main harness connector, it's on the other side of the Box marked V6, and it is lower on the firewall. See these pictures,.

https://2img.net/h/i172.photobucket.com/albums/w20/SLD1624/Connector1R.jpg

https://2img.net/h/i172.photobucket.com/albums/w20/SLD1624/Connector2R.jpg

_________________
98 Riviera SC3800  All stock except gutted air box.
1970 Buick GS455 Stage1, TSP built 470BBB, 602HP/589TQ
Best MPH, 116.06 MPH, Best ET, 11.54
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHCda-t_Jls
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albertj
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Motor died today. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Motor died today.   Motor died today. EmptySat Mar 23, 2019 6:20 pm

Oh and about that crank sensor. us the harmonic balancer comes off for that... there is a write up on this site about pulling the balancer - IIRC the free-rental puller form Autozone will work except you need different bolts (chap, common hardware) and they are listed in the writeup,
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Abaddon
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Abaddon

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Motor died today. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Motor died today.   Motor died today. EmptyMon Mar 25, 2019 11:16 am

Jack the R wrote:
What a surprise - another relay switch disabling the car.  If you don't mind my being bitchy for a moment, it seems everything runs off of switches with contacts that get burnt out and corroded in short order.  I've had to replace a window switch, a starter relay switch, and now this.  That is enough failure that it should be done differently.    

lol You should work on brand new cars. The circuitry is so sensitive that a spec of dirt can disable a car. It sucks....
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Jack the R
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Jack the R

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Motor died today. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Motor died today.   Motor died today. EmptyMon Mar 25, 2019 12:49 pm

Abaddon wrote:
Jack the R wrote:
What a surprise - another relay switch disabling the car.  If you don't mind my being bitchy for a moment, it seems everything runs off of switches with contacts that get burnt out and corroded in short order.  I've had to replace a window switch, a starter relay switch, and now this.  That is enough failure that it should be done differently.    

lol You should work on brand new cars. The circuitry is so sensitive that a spec of dirt can disable a car. It sucks....

It'll really suck when we all get Alzeimer's from spraying aluminum in the atmosphere to protect the wee little circuits from normal levels of atmospheric radiation - Link

The EM part is about a third of the way down.

I'd be happy to find out this isn't true, but that's a compelling explanation IMO.
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albertj
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Motor died today. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Motor died today.   Motor died today. EmptyMon Mar 25, 2019 2:30 pm

Abaddon wrote:
Jack the R wrote:
What a surprise - another relay switch disabling the car.  If you don't mind my being bitchy for a moment, it seems everything runs off of switches with contacts that get burnt out and corroded in short order.  I've had to replace a window switch, a starter relay switch, and now this.  That is enough failure that it should be done differently.    

lol You should work on brand new cars. The circuitry is so sensitive that a spec of dirt can disable a car. It sucks....

I recall seeing this (spec of dirt disabling electronics) unless and until the electronics engineers team up with some old-school packaging gurus.  Point being that until truly novel encapsulation and conductivity materials are created (hint - don't hold your breath) knowing how to keep a circuit working in the real world is an *art* that a number of recently initiated engineers either don't get (doubt it, they are not stupid), are told they can do without in order to meet cost (more likely the case), or are sold a packaging approach that does not actually work in their environment for some reason.


Albertj


Last edited by albertj on Tue Mar 26, 2019 8:16 am; edited 1 time in total
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Jack the R
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Jack the R

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Motor died today. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Motor died today.   Motor died today. EmptyMon Mar 25, 2019 11:56 pm

LARRY70GS wrote:
If you are talking about the main harness connector, it's on the other side of the Box marked V6, and it is lower on the firewall.  See these pictures,.

https://2img.net/h/i172.photobucket.com/albums/w20/SLD1624/Connector1R.jpg

https://2img.net/h/i172.photobucket.com/albums/w20/SLD1624/Connector2R.jpg

I've got the cap off, what is the trick to pulling the plug without breaking anything? Mine feels like it is glued on and there's not much room to get a grip on it.
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Jack the R
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Jack the R

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Motor died today. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Motor died today.   Motor died today. EmptyWed Mar 27, 2019 12:16 am

I tried using a cat's paw to pry the plug out -

Motor died today. Yxnnt6ez

With this I could get a broad contact point on the lip of the plug, and leverage against the bolt, which seemed like a clever idea. However the plug did not budge, the cat's paw slipped off the lip when enough force was applied. I got more force on it than it should take to get the plug out. Are there fasteners holding the plug in place that I don't see?
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Abaddon
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Motor died today. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Motor died today.   Motor died today. EmptyWed Mar 27, 2019 8:41 am

Jack the R wrote:
Are there fasteners holding the plug in place that I don't see?

Nope. Try loosening the bolt while you pry. Sometimes there's a thread or two left and you have to back them both out at the same time.

Since it's probably never been unplugged in a decade or better, the rubber weather seal is probably adhered to the plastic body. Be careful man.....
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albertj
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Motor died today. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Motor died today.   Motor died today. EmptyWed Mar 27, 2019 10:55 am

Sometimes it's like this... popcorn

Other times like this... headbutt
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Jack the R
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Jack the R

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Motor died today. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Motor died today.   Motor died today. EmptyThu Mar 28, 2019 12:59 am

Abaddon wrote:
Jack the R wrote:
Are there fasteners holding the plug in place that I don't see?

Nope. Try loosening the bolt while you pry. Sometimes there's a thread or two left and you have to back them both out at the same time.

Does the bolt need to come off? Why would the plug receptacle need to come off the firewall?

I'm sure this plug has never been pulled.
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Jack the R
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Jack the R

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Motor died today. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Motor died today.   Motor died today. EmptyThu Mar 28, 2019 1:01 am

albertj wrote:
Other times like this... headbutt

This for me.


albertj wrote:
Sometimes it's like this... popcorn

This for you.

yay

I like working on cars, but not always in the moment crazy

This part seems like it's made to break, and take the fuel lines with it.
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Motor died today. Empty
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