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 Custom Rear Lateral Adjustment Arms/Links???

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jax95riv
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Custom Rear Lateral Adjustment Arms/Links??? - Page 1 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Custom Rear Lateral Adjustment Arms/Links???   Custom Rear Lateral Adjustment Arms/Links??? - Page 1 EmptyTue Jul 24, 2007 6:43 pm

Yep, I know where you're talking about. I have one that's loose or something. The one on the passenger side rattles over bumps. Do they have bushings that wear?
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97rivman
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Rear Lateral Adjustment Arms/Links???   Custom Rear Lateral Adjustment Arms/Links??? - Page 1 EmptyTue Jul 24, 2007 8:08 pm

I dont know what wears, I just dont like the cheap design.
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robotennis61
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Rear Lateral Adjustment Arms/Links???   Custom Rear Lateral Adjustment Arms/Links??? - Page 1 EmptySat Dec 12, 2009 3:14 am

old post but..did you come up with anything? on the 95 the rear control arm is a nicely done all aluminium. the fronts are steel. is your year the opposite?
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duckstu
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Rear Lateral Adjustment Arms/Links???   Custom Rear Lateral Adjustment Arms/Links??? - Page 1 EmptySat Dec 12, 2009 10:28 am

I can't see how the rear lateral arms would help you change camber. I believe the camber is dictated by the two mounting points on the front of the trailing arm assembly (in '97 and up that's an aluminum piece).

The lateral link locates the hub side to side,...and can only effect minor changes in toe and the location of the wheels in the fender well.

There's probably a couple routes to go for stronger ones,...one thing is to box them in. They are "U" shaped,...and you can cut a strip of steel the width of the gap in the "U" and weld it onto the arm. Then paint it or have it powder-coated.

The next step might be to find firmer bushings that you can press into them.


But what I find is that 16" and even most 17" tires have many times more flex in their sidewalls than the lateral links possibly could. So unless you're going to 18" - 19" W-rated rubber,....messing wit the lateral links probably won't improve the feel much at all.

Or is the OP really concerned about breaking them?
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albertj
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Rear Lateral Adjustment Arms/Links???   Custom Rear Lateral Adjustment Arms/Links??? - Page 1 EmptySat Dec 12, 2009 10:44 am

robotennis61 wrote:
old post but..did you come up with anything? on the 95 the rear control arm is a nicely done all aluminium. the fronts are steel. is your year the opposite?

they were not talking about the control arms, rather the lateral arms which pivot off a chunk of steel on the body pan that's located about where the pumpkin would be on a RWD car.

Not sure what happened to the OP's idea - except that given sidewall flex, beefier lateral arms would buy you about nothing - BUT there have been adjustable lateral arms available for quite some time. One set is here:

[url]-- http://www.bmrfabrication.com/controlarms/GPaft.jpg[/url]

They are made for/known to the GP/Regal crowd. I don't think BMR would have a problem providing ones fitting the Riv, although I admit I have not asked. I imagine they would fit but I do not really know. They are $200 the pair. I imagine if we had the dimensions they could make nonadjustables like their W-body trailing arms for more like $100-$150/pair. I also wonder if the rear 2nd design lateral arms for the Park Avenue would fit. They are $67 each from Monster. I don't know the dimensions.

As it is - some time ago I scraped off rust, treated and repainted black my lateral arms, but they're rusting again. I would not be averse to replacing mine some time in 2010 with the adjustables or just ahve a set fabricated. Depends on how they look in the spring. Any of you have one of these break on you? Tell us what you did about it.

Albertj

PS want to surf? Look at the CTS-V parts including a stout strut tower brace:

http://www.bmrfabrication.com/CTS-Vpage.htm
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duckstu
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Rear Lateral Adjustment Arms/Links???   Custom Rear Lateral Adjustment Arms/Links??? - Page 1 EmptySat Dec 12, 2009 2:05 pm

albertj wrote:


As it is - some time ago I scraped off rust, treated and repainted black my lateral arms, but they're rusting again. I would not be averse to replacing mine some time in 2010 with the adjustables or just ahve a set fabricated. Depends on how they look in the spring. Any of you have one of these break on you? Tell us what you did about it.

Albertj


Why adjustable arms? Are you wanting more adjustment than the stock arms have? Possibly to get some toe-in for road course racing? LOL
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albertj
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Rear Lateral Adjustment Arms/Links???   Custom Rear Lateral Adjustment Arms/Links??? - Page 1 EmptySat Dec 12, 2009 2:37 pm

duckstu wrote:
albertj wrote:


As it is - some time ago I scraped off rust, treated and repainted black my lateral arms, but they're rusting again. I would not be averse to replacing mine some time in 2010 with the adjustables or just ahve a set fabricated. Depends on how they look in the spring. Any of you have one of these break on you? Tell us what you did about it.

Albertj


Why adjustable arms? Are you wanting more adjustment than the stock arms have? Possibly to get some toe-in for road course racing? LOL

No adjustment or road racing; it just gets me out of having arms fabbed since the OE are now unobtainium. If I find NOS OE arms or decide to have BMR (or someone local) make a fixed-length set then I won't. I don't need drama, just probably need a set of arms next year or so.

Albertj


Albertj
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duckstu
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Rear Lateral Adjustment Arms/Links???   Custom Rear Lateral Adjustment Arms/Links??? - Page 1 EmptySat Dec 12, 2009 3:54 pm

albertj wrote:


the OE are now unobtainium. ....................... just probably need a set of arms next year or so.

Albertj


Aaah. It should be really easy to make a set. They don't have any crazy bends to clear anything. All you'd need to do is find a bushing-style rod end for each side and simply weld a length of straight steel tube in between. Once you have the rod ends,...it should only take 20 minutes to do. You could get the steel tube stock from Lowes. Then have them powder-coated.
.
.
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Rickw
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Rear Lateral Adjustment Arms/Links???   Custom Rear Lateral Adjustment Arms/Links??? - Page 1 EmptySat Dec 12, 2009 4:54 pm

Adjustable Heim Joint rod ends are available through the 4 Wheel Drive Truck market place and other places for not too much money, that will allow adjustments if necessary for toe.
Welded into round stock, will work.
Also, regular threaded bushing ends, less expensive, with poly bushings, welded into round or square stock will also work very well.
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Rear Lateral Adjustment Arms/Links???   Custom Rear Lateral Adjustment Arms/Links??? - Page 1 EmptySat Dec 12, 2009 5:38 pm

Hmmm.... maybe, duckstu.

What I don't know is if the steel in those suspension members is common nonstrutural (C 645), high strength of some sort () or if a pipe steel (such as A181) will do.

The suspension fabricators should know the answer to this. I do not; although the Lowe's stock steel would probably initially work and might well work long enough to suit my purposes, I am not certain if I want to assume the risk that it does/will not, not knowing the spec.

Do you happen to know anything about the strength specification of the stock steel pipe sold at Lowe's? I'm not saying you're wrong - your suggestion should work initially. I am not excited enough to do it, however, unless you can also show that the strength of the Lowe's stock tube meets the needed spec. Can you? I can't. I imagine that maybe fabbing these things out of a couple of the GM OE sway bars (they are hollow) might well work, if they will take the welding and a press-in bushing can be fitted. Might need to use different tube on the ends than the swaybar tube, depending on the bushings at least.

So anyway, duckstu, if you know something about the strength spec of that Lowe's tube - or can explain to me why it does not matter - please share it with the rest of us.

Albertj
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Rear Lateral Adjustment Arms/Links???   Custom Rear Lateral Adjustment Arms/Links??? - Page 1 EmptySat Dec 12, 2009 6:12 pm

Cold Rolled ASTM 4130 and you can't go wrong.
It's what they make roll bar's and many other things out of.
Common at a metal fab shop
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duckstu
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Rear Lateral Adjustment Arms/Links???   Custom Rear Lateral Adjustment Arms/Links??? - Page 1 EmptySat Dec 12, 2009 10:28 pm

Rickw wrote:
Adjustable Heim Joint rod ends are available through the 4 Wheel Drive Truck market place and other places for not too much money, that will allow adjustments if necessary for toe.
Welded into round stock, will work.
Also, regular threaded bushing ends, less expensive, with poly bushings, welded into round or square stock will also work very well.


I'm of the belief that Heim joints are a bad idea on a street car. They work well initially (albeit with a good bit of road noise),...but very quickly they start to make a clicking noise. And as the elements eat away at them, they get very loud.

I had heim joint sway-bar end links on my Subaru,...and after a few months and 5,000+ miles they had between 1/16" and 1/8" of slop in them, and were making a lot of racket.


Poly bushings would be ideal. Although they need to be re-greased with waterproof moly lube every year.

I have seen these already pressed into rods for various applications, but haven't yet found them for sale by themselves.

The stock rods have a curve to them,...but I presume this isn't for clearance reasons. More likely it's to insure that if the car slides sideways into a curb, that the rod and wheel sacrifice themselves to save the subframe and chassis.

If you felt bold, you could just make them straight.


Last edited by duckstu on Sat Dec 12, 2009 11:14 pm; edited 4 times in total
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duckstu
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Rear Lateral Adjustment Arms/Links???   Custom Rear Lateral Adjustment Arms/Links??? - Page 1 EmptySat Dec 12, 2009 10:52 pm

albertj wrote:
Hmmm.... maybe, duckstu.

.............. duckstu, if you know something about the strength spec of that Lowe's tube - or can explain to me why it does not matter - please share it with the rest of us.

Albertj


Nothing technical Albert. I'm not an engineer,...just an experienced do it your-selfer and track-aholic.

But the trailing arm and spring make up a complete suspension system by themselves (and do in many other cars). This lateral link merely allows Buick to run overly soft bushings in the front of the trailing arm. If you could press firmer busings into the front of the trailing arms,..., (and the subframe in that area was rigid enough to support it) you could get rid of the lateral links altogether.

I don't know how much load is on those links. (I have a friend that works in suspension at GM though. He looked up info in that car for me recently,...I suppose I could ask him if they still have stress data on those arms,..but I hate to bug him too much).

I could guess though. If we figure the rear weight bias of a Rivi to be 45% (of 3,750 lbs),....that's about 1,690 lbs on the rears. With a potential lateral G on a skidpad of 0 .75G (also a guess) that would work out to 1,270 lbs. If we figure the outside wheel does 80% of the work and the inside wheel does 20%,...then the rod would need to be able to take 1,020 lbs in compression and 250 lbs in tension. That's not a very beefey rod really.

After figuring out what the real numbers are,...you'd want to add 30% to them for safety and future rust. Then be sure not to squench the welds so the steel didn't get brittle.

Of course whatever the numbers end up being,..they would vary depending on what tire you were running. 275/40/18 WR tires are capable of imparting a lot more side load than 225/60/16 H rated tires. And putting 6 dead hookers in the trunk raises up the numbers a bunch (especially if they're in there for a track days). smile

Pehaps you just pull yours,...wire-wheel them, then box them in with some mild steel from Lowes and have them powdercoated.

I do a lot of work in suspensions (and engineer friends design them for Porsche, Pugeot, GM, etc),..but modding the Rivi isn't high on my list at the moment. I will be trying some new front strut mounts tomorrow though. I bought some from Raybestos that are refered to as "Professional Grade" Part number 520-1134. A guy at Raybestos confirmed my hopes that they are supposed to be firmer than stock. i hope that's true.


Last edited by duckstu on Sun Dec 13, 2009 12:33 am; edited 6 times in total
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Rickw
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Custom Rear Lateral Adjustment Arms/Links??? - Page 1 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Custom Rear Lateral Adjustment Arms/Links???   Custom Rear Lateral Adjustment Arms/Links??? - Page 1 EmptySat Dec 12, 2009 11:04 pm

Cold Rolled ASTM 4130 and you can't go wrong.
No need to over analyze, as you are trying to replace stock, aren't you.
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Jason
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Rear Lateral Adjustment Arms/Links???   Custom Rear Lateral Adjustment Arms/Links??? - Page 1 EmptySat Dec 12, 2009 11:21 pm

duckstu wrote:
If we figure the rear weight bias of a Rivi to be 45% (of 4,700 lbs),....that's 2,115 lbs.
you're about 1000 lbs off, unless you have the 6 (large) hookers you referred to later in your post in the trunk

It would be cool if some of the aftermarket suppliers made tubular lower control arms for the g-body. The flimsy stamped steel stock ones are practically junk.
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Rear Lateral Adjustment Arms/Links???   Custom Rear Lateral Adjustment Arms/Links??? - Page 1 EmptySun Dec 13, 2009 12:11 am

The pull/wire wheel/box sounds viable; I think the game plan will be to get a used set from Morad, Heidelberg or another source and either copy them or "shop" them as you outlined - we will see what spring brings.

By the way on those strut mounts - there were a number of GM cars that used the same shape/size mounts with differnt durometer rubber inserts. Would not surprise me to find the Raybestos ones matched the firmest of the group. I think I know why GM did not use a steel "hat" on the mount with a floating washer or plate underneath, but I wish they had as on the current Malibu.

Albertj

Thanks

Albertj
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duckstu
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Rear Lateral Adjustment Arms/Links???   Custom Rear Lateral Adjustment Arms/Links??? - Page 1 EmptySun Dec 13, 2009 11:04 am

Jason wrote:
duckstu wrote:
If we figure the rear weight bias of a Rivi to be 45% (of 4,700 lbs),....that's 2,115 lbs.
you're about 1000 lbs off, unless you have the 6 (large) hookers you referred to later in your post in the trunk

Whoops !
Ha, ha. Let me go back and edit that.

Here's a link to bushed rod ends for sale. This from Art Morrison. The ends are threaded,...so a length of tubing threaded on the inside and you have a lateral link.
http://artmorrison.com/layout.php?y=store/&x=components
Probably WAY over spec for the application though. The stock link looks very flimsey to me,.....seems more like it is just taking up some of the slack so the rear end only moves side to side half as much as it does front to back. And with the bend in the stock piece,.......

Or weld-on bushing sets. A pair, (enough to do one comnplete link) is $50. So $100 total plus the tubing.
At the very bottom
http://autoweldchassis.com/cmmb.ivnu

These look the most promising. Avail in a couple sizes,..therse are zink plated instead of stainless. No need to quild the lilly here. A new set of these and powder-coated rods will likely utlast athe car.
http://www.andrewsracecars.com.au/product_170.html
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BMD
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Rear Lateral Adjustment Arms/Links???   Custom Rear Lateral Adjustment Arms/Links??? - Page 1 EmptyTue Jul 13, 2010 7:55 pm

Is this called an adjustment link?
Custom Rear Lateral Adjustment Arms/Links??? - Page 1 389656930
This is a pic at the end of the rear driverside lateral arm. Just noticed that the bushing is gone on it and I'm not sure what to ask for at the parts desk. Does it comes off similarly to an outer tie rod end?
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Rear Lateral Adjustment Arms/Links???   Custom Rear Lateral Adjustment Arms/Links??? - Page 1 EmptyWed Jul 14, 2010 12:59 am

Looks very much like the front outer tie rods. in fact it may even be the same part #.
Last i looked on rockauto there was no listing for the rear tie rods.

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BMD
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Rear Lateral Adjustment Arms/Links???   Custom Rear Lateral Adjustment Arms/Links??? - Page 1 EmptyWed Jul 14, 2010 2:36 am

Thanks Matthew, so do you think I could use a tie rod end there if a rear adjustment link is not available? The only difference I see is this bolt...
Custom Rear Lateral Adjustment Arms/Links??? - Page 1 389667162
anyone one know what it does?
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Rear Lateral Adjustment Arms/Links???   Custom Rear Lateral Adjustment Arms/Links??? - Page 1 EmptyWed Jul 14, 2010 2:41 am

The correct parts are available for the rear.

No need to try and fit a front tie-rod to the rear.

I asked at my local auto-parts store / supplier and just asked if rear tie-Rods were available for my Riv out of curiosity and after looking in THE BOOKS, not the computer he said yes.

I'm sorry I didn't inquire about cost or make, but I have always received Moog products from this supplier.

I haven't looked too far up this thread, but have you asked at a parts store regarding the rear tie-rods yet and if so what were you told.?
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Rear Lateral Adjustment Arms/Links???   Custom Rear Lateral Adjustment Arms/Links??? - Page 1 EmptyWed Jul 14, 2010 7:55 am

Rick is correct. That is the rear tie rod. That arm is what adjusts the rear toe setting.
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BMD
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Rear Lateral Adjustment Arms/Links???   Custom Rear Lateral Adjustment Arms/Links??? - Page 1 EmptyWed Jul 14, 2010 8:56 am

OK, thanks guys, I'll find out if they have rear tie rod ends at my local parts store. So is that what the bolt for, toe adjustment?
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Rear Lateral Adjustment Arms/Links???   Custom Rear Lateral Adjustment Arms/Links??? - Page 1 EmptyWed Jul 14, 2010 10:45 am

BMD wrote:
OK, thanks guys, I'll find out if they have rear tie rod ends at my local parts store. So is that what the bolt for, toe adjustment?
im not sure the bolt is actually doing the toe adjustment, but i do believe that it is the lock so the toe adjustment stays. im assuming to remove that piece you have to take the pictured bolt out and then unscrew the end of the lateral arm like a tie rod end.
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Rear Lateral Adjustment Arms/Links???   Custom Rear Lateral Adjustment Arms/Links??? - Page 1 EmptyWed Jul 14, 2010 11:17 am

Tyler is correct!

Congratulations! You get to drink from the Fire Hose!!!! lmao
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